Treating Tinnitus with RST Sanexas, Using Electrical Cell Signaling?

[Lukee]

Hi Everyone,

I've had tinnitus since early January along with a host of other problems (headaches, ear pain/pressure, anxiety, etc) that all came about after doing Wim Hof breathing technique. @MrC6688 started a thread regarding this and we have since gained several members who have unfortunately experienced this same phenomenon from the Wim Hof Method.

In any case, as I'm sure anyone who is on this forum has done, I spent the last 2 months of my life researching any possible cure, treatment, reason, etc for this ailment and have tried a bunch of techniques and supplements over the same period. While the ear pressure and pain is resolving, the tinnitus seems mostly stagnant and possibly a bit worse but it certainly fluctuates. I started looking into therapies that could possibly deal with tinnitus from a brain and/or CNS/ANS perspective as @MrC6688 and many others have stated we may have some form of dysautonomia (ANS imbalance) caused by the Wim Hof Method.

I came across a neurologist who claims he has now treated 6-10 patients with tinnitus. He has not exclusively treated anyone for tinnitus. He was treating his patients for neuropathy and realized that after a few sessions, their tinnitus was resolving. He said on average, it takes 6 sessions to "cure" his patients of tinnitus. He claims his wife has been treated too and has absolutely no ringing anymore.

I am generally very skeptical about these kinds of cures and treatments but I ask myself why is a doctor who is fully booked in his clinic trying to sell snake oil? He seems genuine and definitely knowledgeable in his field and I assume that becoming a neurologist is no easy task so I'm eager to give credibility to him. He has invited me out to participate as his first "tinnitus" patient at a very reduced rate to try and see if it will work. I am in Canada and he is in the US and with the COVID-19 quarantine restrictions both ways it would be very difficult to make the trip feasible.

I would like to get everyone's take on the possibility that this works as I truly don't believe this is a scam and I'm hoping that he is not delusional about the effectiveness of this device. BTW, the device is the RST Sanexas, an FDA approved (I think the only approved) machine for treating neuropathy. In looking it up, it seems like there are mixed reviews; those who say it's a miracle machine and those who label it a glorified TENS unit. The idea is that the machine can reach the hearing organ (cochlea) and is able to use the bone around it as a conductor (since bone is calcium and calcium is metallic on the periodic table). He believes that the biggest issue with treating tinnitus is the inability to cross the BBB and that's why we are ineffective at delivering therapeutic medicines. He also mentioned the Australian research that effectively proves tinnitus can be measured in the brain (I think referring to the Bionics Institute) and discussed how it was a monumental find for tinnitus/brain connection research. These are his ideas, not mine, but they do sort of make sense to me albeit with my limited knowledge. Is it possible that this device is repairing the nerves and synapses in the cochlea or auditory brainstem? Is there any way that this is possible and true?

Curious to hear what everyone has to say and if perhaps this doctor has found the potential treatment we have (some longer than others) all been waiting for.

 

[Jcmc]

Curious to hear what everyone has to say and if perhaps this doctor has found the potential treatment we have (some longer than others) all been waiting for.

I would like to know too!

 

[Lukee]

I saw this article posted by @Contrast in another thread.

Is noise-induced cochlear neuropathy key to the generation of hyperacusis or tinnitus?

Maybe there is something to treating tinnitus via treating neuropathy?

@MattS are you still around the forums? I think I read you are a neuroscientist in one of the threads... care to weigh in?

 

[Ehren M]

Hi Everyone,

I've had tinnitus since early January along with a host of other problems (headaches, ear pain/pressure, anxiety, etc) that all came about after doing Wim Hof breathing technique. @MrC6688 started a thread regarding this and we have since gained several members who have unfortunately experienced this same phenomenon from the Wim Hof Method.

In any case, as I'm sure anyone who is on this forum has done, I spent the last 2 months of my life researching any possible cure, treatment, reason, etc for this ailment and have tried a bunch of techniques and supplements over the same period. While the ear pressure and pain is resolving, the tinnitus seems mostly stagnant and possibly a bit worse but it certainly fluctuates. I started looking into therapies that could possibly deal with tinnitus from a brain and/or CNS/ANS perspective as @MrC6688 and many others have stated we may have some form of dysautonomia (ANS imbalance) caused by the Wim Hof Method.

I came across a neurologist who claims he has now treated 6-10 patients with tinnitus. He has not exclusively treated anyone for tinnitus. He was treating his patients for neuropathy and realized that after a few sessions, their tinnitus was resolving. He said on average, it takes 6 sessions to "cure" his patients of tinnitus. He claims his wife has been treated too and has absolutely no ringing anymore.

I am generally very skeptical about these kinds of cures and treatments but I ask myself why is a doctor who is fully booked in his clinic trying to sell snake oil? He seems genuine and definitely knowledgeable in his field and I assume that becoming a neurologist is no easy task so I'm eager to give credibility to him. He has invited me out to participate as his first "tinnitus" patient at a very reduced rate to try and see if it will work. I am in Canada and he is in the US and with the COVID-19 quarantine restrictions both ways it would be very difficult to make the trip feasible.

I would like to get everyone's take on the possibility that this works as I truly don't believe this is a scam and I'm hoping that he is not delusional about the effectiveness of this device. BTW, the device is the RST Sanexas, an FDA approved (I think the only approved) machine for treating neuropathy. In looking it up, it seems like there are mixed reviews; those who say it's a miracle machine and those who label it a glorified TENS unit. The idea is that the machine can reach the hearing organ (cochlea) and is able to use the bone around it as a conductor (since bone is calcium and calcium is metallic on the periodic table). He believes that the biggest issue with treating tinnitus is the inability to cross the BBB and that's why we are ineffective at delivering therapeutic medicines. He also mentioned the Australian research that effectively proves tinnitus can be measured in the brain (I think referring to the Bionics Institute) and discussed how it was a monumental find for tinnitus/brain connection research. These are his ideas, not mine, but they do sort of make sense to me albeit with my limited knowledge. Is it possible that this device is repairing the nerves and synapses in the cochlea or auditory brainstem? Is there any way that this is possible and true?

Curious to hear what everyone has to say and if perhaps this doctor has found the potential treatment we have (some longer than others) all been waiting for.

I'd love to know more about your experience with this treatment. Where in the US is the doctor located? Also, I looked into the Wim Hof Method when his first book was published, and I was really interested as I've been into meditation and related stuff for years. After reading about the trouble you encountered after trying his method, I'm so grateful I never did find time to dig into his book. I hope others have a chance to learn of your experience before diving into the Wim Hof Method. My heart goes out to you, as I'm sure you got into that breath work with the best intentions, only to find it resulted in tinnitus.

 

[Lukee]

I'd love to know more about your experience with this treatment. Where in the US is the doctor located? Also, I looked into the Wim Hof Method when his first book was published, and I was really interested as I've been into meditation and related stuff for years. After reading about the trouble you encountered after trying his method, I'm so grateful I never did find time to dig into his book. I hope others have a chance to learn of your experience before diving into the Wim Hof Method. My heart goes out to you, as I'm sure you got into that breath work with the best intentions, only to find it resulted in tinnitus.

Hi @Ehren M.

The doctor is in Oklahoma. If it were not for COVID-19, I would be there next week but unfortunately the travel restrictions make it nearly impossible in the near future. If someone else is nearby Tulsa and willing to try it, I think we maybe have some real answers within a few weeks.

Yes Wim Hof has put me through some of the most difficult months of my life. It's a very dangerous method and should not be attempted. The problems I have experienced go beyond 'just' tinnitus and include ear and head pain and fullness as well as the worst anxiety I have ever experienced. Dizziness, pre-syncope and an overall feeling of uneasiness have followed me for the last two months. One member posted that he basically acquired POTS after Wim Hof Method and cannot even stand up without almost blacking out.

Anyway, onwards and upwards and hopefully this doctor has found a potential treatment for all us sufferers.

 

[Ehren M]

Hi @Ehren M.

The doctor is in Oklahoma. If it were not for COVID-19, I would be there next week but unfortunately the travel restrictions make it nearly impossible in the near future. If someone else is nearby Tulsa and willing to try it, I think we maybe have some real answers within a few weeks.

Yes Wim Hof has put me through some of the most difficult months of my life. It's a very dangerous method and should not be attempted. The problems I have experienced go beyond 'just' tinnitus and include ear and head pain and fullness as well as the worst anxiety I have ever experienced. Dizziness, pre-syncope and an overall feeling of uneasiness have followed me for the last two months. One member posted that he basically acquired POTS after Wim Hof Method and cannot even stand up without almost blacking out.

Anyway, onwards and upwards and hopefully this doctor has found a potential treatment for all us sufferers.

If you could provide the doctor's information, I'll consider whether I could experiment with the method... and others on this forum could also make the same consideration.

All the best,
Ehren

 

[Lukee]

If you could provide the doctor's information, I'll consider whether I could experiment with the method...

Hi Ehren,

The doctor has asked me not to post his information.

I have posted the methodology behind his procedure in the hopes that someone brighter than me could offer their interpretation on the legitimacy of the claim. I am not really sure how to move forward but I think it would truly be a waste if this potential therapy doesn't get investigated.

 

[Ehren M]

Hi @Lukee,

Understood.

All the best to you,

Ehren

 

[Lukee]

I was really hoping to have a lot more traction with this by now. Initially, I was super excited after speaking to the doctor about his procedure but I feel like no one seems to be taking it seriously. I know many members have have tinnitus for years and decades and have seen all the scams come and go but given the novel procedure I figured this would have garnered more interest.

Where are the common heavyweights I see on this forum with technical knowledge?

@Greg Sacramento, @Michael Leigh, @Matchbox, @Contrast, could you weigh in with some thoughts?

 

[Lukee]

Do any of the members here care to take a look at this? @FGG, @GBB, sorry just getting my bearings on this forum and trying to shout out to anyone who posts a lot and might have some insight on this treatment. If I was in Tulsa I would be trying this tomorrow. Doesn't seem like anyone is excited about it lol.

 

[Matchbox]

I can say that calcium in the ionic state is not and never will act like a metal. It is not a conductor, its valence shell is very difficult to fill, nor is any part of it magnetic.

Tons of medications cross the blood brain barrier... there's even carrier medicines to make it more permeable.

That's why ototoxic drugs are ototoxic.

Maybe the guy means well, the theory is bullshit.

The best I could imagine is it's a fancy rTMS which is inducing nerves to fire which hasn't been shown to help people with tinnitus.

Look up people's experience with magnetic/electro therapies for tinnitus on here. Not great. Some people got worse.

That's not including bimodal stimulation, which is supposed to be timed to events (there's an underlying actual theory instead of just randomly inducing nerve depolarizations).

 

[Jcmc]

Do any of the members here care to take a look at this? @FGG, @GBB, sorry just getting my bearings on this forum and trying to shout out to anyone who posts a lot and might have some insight on this treatment. If I was in Tulsa I would be trying this tomorrow. Doesn't seem like anyone is excited about it lol.

Hey,

I think people are tired to hear that something may work only to realise it doesn't work.

Do you know somebody that has tried it?

 

[Lukee]

I can say that calcium in the ionic state is not and never will act like a metal. It is not a conductor, its valence shell is very difficult to fill, nor is any part of it magnetic.

Tons of medications cross the blood brain barrier... there's even carrier medicines to make it more permeable.

That's why ototoxic drugs are ototoxic.

Maybe the guy means well, the theory is bullshit.

The best I could imagine is it's a fancy rTMS which is inducing nerves to fire which hasn't been shown to help people with tinnitus.

Look up people's experience with magnetic/electro therapies for tinnitus on here. Not great. Some people got worse.

That's not including bimodal stimulation, which is supposed to be timed to events (there's an underlying actual theory instead of just randomly inducing nerve depolarizations).

Appreciate the feedback. Exactly what I was looking for. I didn't think calcium was going to act like a metal either and maybe this doctor has his chemistry/physics wrong. I do think that there is still a chance that it works just maybe not necessarily the way he says it does. If the treatment does work for neuropathy, then there is a chance it could work for tinnitus I guess. I don't really know anything about it but I'm wondering if it makes a difference that the machine is FDA approved for treating neuropathy; actually it's the only machine approved AFAIK. Does this lend credibility to the treatment?

I think people are tired to hear that something may work only to realise it doesn't work.

Do you know somebody that has tried it?

I don't personally know anyone who has tried it and I agree with getting your spirits up only to be let down. It really sucks and takes a mental toll. A researcher (not tinnitus but neuro-related) told me that he has seen many times remission of symptoms for various disorders and even tinnitus but way of a fluke. He said that so many times they are considered anecdotal because they are not (or haven't been tried to) reproducible in a trial but it doesn't mean it didn't work for that person. It can be something as crazy as eating 8 bananas a day I guess!

The thing I have hope for is this doctor is not actively advertising this as a treatment. He says he has had complete remission or improvement in about 10 patients, one of them being his wife. He is a neurologist with many years under his belt so I can't instantly discount him as a quack but I do know that even amongst doctors and researchers there are quacks and charlatans. Everything just seems so genuine and he said the only thing he wants is to be recognized for his "discovery". It's apparently not patentable and it's not his device so I'm not sure how he would really capitalize on this if it was a scam. I was hoping someone, like Matchbox just did, could dissect some of the technical stuff. It would be best though if someone was willing to try it out and see if any improvement.

I don't know the exact cost of the treatment. He said six sessions would basically do it and his patients noticed big improvement by 3rd session. He said that he would basically offer cost on the treatments for anyone trying it out as a tinnitus therapy so he could validate his discovery.

 

[Matchbox]

For the record, it is not a metal in the traditional sense. It would become one if you could reduce it (which is wouldn't last too long around water, but in just air it might).

It is conductive in its ionic form in water however, but that's not bone. They can carry charge and be induced by voltage. There aren't any valence spots to occupy once it is bound strongly (unlike d / f block metals, even in ionic states as it only has a valence shell of 4s2). If it were hanging out in water then yes.

But no, I don't believe it can behave magnetically at all bound as bone (it'd have to be a super strong field). It's been a while since I busted out chemistry knowledge.

 

[Cernuto]

Looks to me like another company promoting their improved TENS device and claiming it does more than a regular TENS device. They are claiming a resonance to give an advantage. They need to give the study results that show it's any better than a smart relief or any other TENS device? But the results need to be much greater, otherwise, it's no better than a regular TENS device with just fancy words:

Quantum Resonance-Specific induction (QRSI™)

Please note that new companies or existing companies claim they have discovered new quantum ideas. The fact is they basically hijacked the Quantum name to make you believe there is something more to what they have.

My take is it's a scam that is given to investors that are not technically knowledgeable.

 

[ThomasC]

If your tinnitus is mild, I wouldn't try this. There is more chance that you make it worse.

 

[Lukee]

Hi @Cernuto, you may have not properly read the thread.

Sanexas is not making this claim. Nowhere on their website or any material is this being marketed as a tinnitus treatment. A neurologist who has been using this device for neuropathy (for which it is FDA approved and supposedly works) has found that many of his patients have had a complete or partially remission of their tinnitus. He said he came to the realization only after some of his patients reported it to him. He would like to try and treat tinnitus exclusively and see if it is a viable option for treatment. Again, he is not advertising this as a service anywhere and has not made the claim that he cured tinnitus, only that 10 people have reported remission after being treated by him for neuropathy, including his wife.

I am a little skeptical myself but I don't know enough how these devices work but if a few people anecdotally said that it works then I think it would be worth investigating.

 

[GBB]

If it were not for COVID-19, I would be there next week but unfortunately the travel restrictions make it nearly impossible in the near future.

What travel restrictions? I know people going on vacation all around the country.

 

[Lukee]

What travel restrictions? I know people going on vacation all around the country.

I'm in Canada. I would have to quarantine for 10 days coming into the US and 2 weeks coming back home. So I would spend 1 month in quarantine even if I left the country for a day.

 

[Cernuto]

Hi @Cernuto, you may have not properly read the thread.

Sanexas is not making this claim. Nowhere on their website or any material is this being marketed as a tinnitus treatment. A neurologist who has been using this device for neuropathy (for which it is FDA approved and supposedly works) has found that many of his patients have had a complete or partially remission of their tinnitus. He said he came to the realization only after some of his patients reported it to him. He would like to try and treat tinnitus exclusively and see if it is a viable option for treatment. Again, he is not advertising this as a service anywhere and has not made the claim that he cured tinnitus, only that 10 people have reported remission after being treated by him for neuropathy, including his wife.

I am a little skeptical myself but I don't know enough how these devices work but if a few people anecdotally said that it works then I think it would be worth investigating.

To me, it looks like a glorified TENS unit with the word 'Quantum' attached to it. I may be wrong.

 

[Lukee]

To me, it looks like a glorified TENS unit with the word 'Quantum' attached to it. I may be wrong.

It may be the case. I'm not disputing that it's not. What I'm saying is that they are not marketing it as a tinnitus treatment so I'm a little less skeptical that it's a sales ploy.

With that said, there are a lot of people who have used a TENS unit to treat forms Dysautonomia with decent success by stimulating the vagus nerve. I don't believe that this unit is targeting the vagus nerve in this case but I think it's prudent to keep our minds open to the possibility of treatment.

 

[GBB]

Is anyone gonna man up and try this or do I have to do everything myself?

 

[Lukee]

Is anyone gonna man up and try this or do I have to do everything myself?

I don't understand the hesitation here. If I was in the US I would be there tomorrow trying out this therapy. I have my vaccine booked for next week and was hoping at some point the quarantines would lift for the vaccinated but who knows when.

 

[FGG]

Is anyone gonna man up and try this or do I have to do everything myself?

You should get a badge for being the resident guinea pig at this point...

 

[FGG]

Is it possible some of the Wim Hof folks inadvertently gave themselves Eustachian tube dysfunction/patuous tubes or somehow increased intracranial pressure and gave themselves perilymph fistulas?

What is the thought on what is supposedly damaged post Wim Hof breathing (I am not too very familiar with it)?

 

[Lukee]

Is it possible some of the Wim Hof folks inadvertently gave themselves Eustachian tube dysfunction/patuous tubes or somehow increased intracranial pressure and gave themselves perilymph fistulas?

What is the thought on what is supposedly damaged post Wim Hof breathing (I am not too very familiar with it)?

Good question. We don't know either. Most of the people on the Wim Hof thread have had similar symptoms (ETD issues and tinnitus, high pitched, mostly hissing); however, there is a large number of sufferers that don't get the ETD symptoms, just the tinnitus. We are divided between ETD, hypoxia causing neuropathy, shock to the ANS, CSF leak, intracranial pressure and/or a mixture of all the above.

I am less inclined to believe it is a perilymph fistula, CSF leak or intracranial pressure since many of us have had MRIs and they do not show those conditions. I know that they can be hard to diagnose by MRI but our neurologists have dismissed the idea. I am still a little skeptical and believe it could be one of these conditions.

Many of the Wim Hof sufferers seem to have mostly recovered from the ETD symptoms. I am 3 months in and still fighting some form of glue ear and occasional fullness. The tinnitus has gotten worse but only slightly. Seems to be holding steady over the last month.

@FGG, do you believe it could be cochlear hydrops? None of us have been able to get a definitive answer but I know I have additional sinus pressure, headaches (that are getting better) and eye floaters. I feel like the symptoms match a stroke of sorts but the neurologists don't believe that is the case.

 

[Marin]

If the neurologist said he could cure the neuropathic pain in my ears, I'd be on my way to Oklahoma right now.

@Lukee, any chance he mentioned ear pain or hyperacusis?

 

[FGG]

Good question. We don't know either. Most of the people on the Wim Hof thread have had similar symptoms (ETD issues and tinnitus, high pitched, mostly hissing); however, there is a large number of sufferers that don't get the ETD symptoms, just the tinnitus. We are divided between ETD, hypoxia causing neuropathy, shock to the ANS, CSF leak, intracranial pressure and/or a mixture of all the above.

I am less inclined to believe it is a perilymph fistula, CSF leak or intracranial pressure since many of us have had MRIs and they do not show those conditions. I know that they can be hard to diagnose by MRI but our neurologists have dismissed the idea. I am still a little skeptical and believe it could be one of these conditions.

Many of the Wim Hof sufferers seem to have mostly recovered from the ETD symptoms. I am 3 months in and still fighting some form of glue ear and occasional fullness. The tinnitus has gotten worse but only slightly. Seems to be holding steady over the last month.

@FGG, do you believe it could be cochlear hydrops? None of us have been able to get a definitive answer but I know I have additional sinus pressure, headaches (that are getting better) and eye floaters. I feel like the symptoms match a stroke of sorts but the neurologists don't believe that is the case.

I have never heard hydrops described as "glue ear" type symptoms. That seems more middle ear to me. What makes you suspect hydrops, specifically? Do you have low frequency hearing loss or vertigo? Did anyone's MRI suggest hydrops?

Re: glue ear. It sounds like your Eustachian tube isn't draining as fast as others' and might be more inflamed. Have you tried a mucous thinning drug? Something like Mucinex or Ambroxol? And lots of water. It sounds like yours is getting better anyway, just not as fast as others.

I obviously can't diagnose you and I am as clueless as you are as to why the Wim Hof breathing is causing problems for many of you. It would be great if enough of you in one area could find an Otologist whose curiosity was piqued enough by the Wim Hof cluster to really thoroughly work it up.

 

[Lukee]

What makes you suspect hydrops, specifically? Do you have low frequency hearing loss or vertigo? Did anyone's MRI suggest hydrops?

Just wondering because of the pressure and strange ear issues along with the tinnitus. No MRIs suggested hydrops. I don't have low frequency hearing loss or vertigo but I do feel I am more susceptible to dizziness after moving my head and bending over, as well as increased pressure in my head and sinuses. The other thing I get (or used to get, it's mostly resolved now) is a fluttering in my right ear. It was brought on by noises but more frequently anxiety. I believe it was TTTS. I also still get sensitive to sounds at times; I wouldn't call it hyperacusis per se but I can feel my eardrums vibrating at certain frequencies, like when my kids are speaking loudly or when my phone is on speakerphone.

Have you tried a mucous thinning drug? Something like Mucinex or Ambroxol?

Funny enough I started Mucinex and some decongestant spray today. Feeling better for sure. I will try it for a week and see if the glue ear resolves. I also have an Otovent coming tomorrow so hope that helps me.

@FGG, for the sake of keeping this thread on track, I have posted more about this discussion in the Wim Hof thread. Your input is greatly appreciated as I know you have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to all things ear and tinnitus. Thank you for help.

 

[Sayeed]

Of the 6 people he has claimed to cure, maybe he could ask those patients to join Tinnitus Talk to share their experience?