- Aug 24, 2014
- 179
- Tinnitus Since
- 07/2009
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Loud Music and being dumb
Yes it's relatively easy to do. Just take the tone and modulate the amplitude - basically so it pulses on and off at a rate of 10Hz (10 times per second).@Steve
Would there be a way to recreate this? Or how do you apply a AM(amplitude modulation) to let's say some tones?
Thanks for you input @EatMoTacos, I havent tried notch sounds, I have heard of them but know little about how they work etc. Maybe I should look more into this. Has anyone had success with notch sounds?
@Fabrikat I haven't tried hearing aids (because I was told by numerous ENT/Audiologists that they wouldn't help as my tinnitus/major hearing loss in the very high frequency range...I don't know if they're right). I read that the siemens Primax can go to 12kHz so that would cover my worst hearing loss. Has anyone had experience using hearing aids for very high frequency tinnitus/hearing loss?
Could you please explain to me how residual habition works?
The main issues with all passive listening therapies are: 1) they don't work for a lot of people
2) For most people, the residual inhibition lasts for minutes-hours after the sound is turned off, 3) the kicker is that once the residual inhibition tapers off, the tinnitus is often experienced at a greater ferocity than before the sound therapy.
The mechanism is tied into the central gain theory of tinnitus. The typical explanation is that most tinnitus is triggered by pathology in the middle or inner ear that has the effect of reducing the quality and strength of the signal transmitted from the inner ear to the brain. The loss of input from the ear triggers a compensatory response in auditory processing centers of the brain. The neurons increase their "gain" (i.e., amplification) on the weakened inputs coming in from the ears so as to restore their overall excitability back to their natural set point. For some individuals, the increased amplification destabilizes patterns of electrical activity within these networks of inter-connected neurons that leads to the false perception of sounds that do not exist in the environment (tinnitus) or the perception that sounds are louder than they actually are (some types of hyperacusis).
Logically, the tinnitus could go away if only the pathologically over-powered amplification was turned down a little bit. If the loss of input from the ear was the reason it was turned up too high, than increasing the activity transmitted through the damaged auditory nerve might coax the amplifier back down. This is where maskers come in (as well as hearing aids or other personal listening devices). By increasing the signal traveling down the damaged auditory nerve, they briefly coax the central gain down and most people get relief from their tinnitus during the sound or for a little while afterward. This is residual inhibition. It doesn't last because the damage is still there and the system will once again start cranking up the gain within minutes or hours after the passive listening is ended.
This makes sense to me. What I can't make sense of is the success rate reported with Linear Octave Frequency Transposition hearing aids, since they seem to move energy from the spectral area where the patient doesn't hear down to the area where the patient hears, thus not amplifying at all in the former area. That baffles me and I wonder what's at play there.
What I mean is that it's not an issue that is specific to sound therapies: it's the unfortunate realities of all tinnitus therapies (except for the rare cases that can address root causes such as stapedotomies for otosclerosis patients, which has a really good success rate to restore hearing (~90%) and a not too bad success rate for addressing T (~50%)).
But, critically, these sounds aren't just passively experienced. The brain is actively processing them to extract meaning and support speech perception. This can engage a competitive plasticity process that recruits neurons that were formally mapped onto the dead zone in the keyboard into this new frequency representation.
Do you have sources for assertions #2 and #3?
I'm particularly interested in it because I've perused quite a few studies on sound therapy (I write code that builds Tinnitus sound therapy files so I've tried to target things that had both reasonable success rates and fairly detailed specifications) and I've never come across a study that looked at residual inhibition as primary or secondary outcomes.
However, I am always thinking about therapies that can provide tinnitus relief on the scale of days, weeks or years.
Thanks for correcting me on that. What I wrote came off as too dismissive (again...hand slap to forehead).
Thanks for the detailed prose.
Ah, this is the key part that contains the "meat" I was looking for - thanks. Do you know if this is a theory or if there has been some studies that confirm this process?
Thanks for the detailed prose.
During my consultation with a T expert at UCSF, he did mention that he recommended that I kept playing music (since I am a musician) and stayed engaged in it, offering that there would be a better success at dealing with T if there was some kind of emotional connection between me and the music I would be listening to.
Maybe you will indulge me in a little experiment. I was wondering if you could play scales (or another melody) where all/most of the notes are focused on frequencies close the border of your hearing loss. As a musician, I am sure you can do this with few errors. Since you are an audio geek (like me), try finding an audio file that has multiple simultaneous speakers and filter the sound (if necessary) so that it has plenty of energy in the frequency range that borders your tinnitus and the musical scale/melody you are playing. Adjust the level of the filtered speech sound so that it is hard, but not impossible, to hear the notes you are producing. Keep producing scales or melodies in this frequency range, as fast as you can with no errors. As you are getting better at it, turn up the volume of the interfering speech sound until it becomes more difficult (and try not to "cheat" by using visual or proprioceptive cues to tell you what notes you are/should be playing). I bet you get stronger residual inhibition from this exercise then you get from an equivalent period of listening to masking noise...
By the way, was the clinician you saw at UCSF Dr. Cheung?
Could this imply that when research is able to turn these overexcited neurons down again (reduce the gain in these areas) this may influence hearing threshold negatively?neurons in the corresponding region of the map lose their primary input and the amplification in that region of the brain maps gets turned way up.
Could this imply that when research is able to turn these overexcited neurons down again (reduce the gain in these areas) this may influence hearing threshold negatively?
Thank you for that.Ideally, the "knob" could be turned down just enough to silence the T without causing audibility to take too much of a hit.
Thank you for that.
Just one more thought I would like to share (just sideways related to this thread) (-:
This trying to dial down central gain could be counter-productive for tinnitus? When indeed hearing threshold for this already damaged area increases even further, it could "increase" the tinnitus sensation. (Like plugging your ears or be in a quit place). After all there is even less input from the outside world to distract from tinnitus.
But like you wrote: at the moment it is pie in the sky.
It does make sense in a way. I was playing several tonse above and below an octave what I think is my T and I did get a moment of silence (maybe roughly about several minutes. At one instance I did get about two hours of no T one night went to bed and woke up right before T came back stronger than ever.
@HomeoHebbian are you suggesting to play Tones closer to what our hearing loss or T tone? I have made several notched sounds and have used the TinnitusPro app for some time but only for white noise and not for music. As of now I feel like my T is around the 2.6kHz tone but my hearing loss mainly is in my right ear above the 11.5kHz (I have to play it at almost 60% volume to hear it)
@HomeoHebbian In your opinion could we potentially keep the recruitment of neurons that create the gain increase and give us tinnitus, but encourage them to selectively increase gain so that they only improve hearing?
It feels feasible that the brain could be trained to turn the gain on/off rather than a constant on. After all the phenomenon of "reactive tinnitus" is like a gain increase based on specific circumstances.
My point is that if you turn down the gain you also turn down sound from the outside world.So, I'm not sure I understand your point, Reinier. According to this logic it would be helpful to turn the gain down.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035238
I wonder if there could have been a possibility that one of the people in this research could have ended up with permanent tinnitus.
After all even now there is no full understanding why we get tinnitus.
Also there is talk about these people having healthy hearing. Now we find that it is still not possible to know if hearing is not damaged (perfect audiogram is perfect hearing/hidden hearing loss?).
So if one of the participants was not "aware" of tinnitus it could have been "triggered" by this research.
Sometimes I wonder about this. I have personal experience that an ENT told nothing was wrong with the hearing of a person after tinnitus complaints following a loud explosion. He concluded that no damage was done after having checked the audiogram. (8kHz max.)I think we do know what constitutes normal, healthy hearing.
Sometimes I wonder about this. I have personal experience that an ENT told nothing was wrong with the hearing of a person after tinnitus complaints following a loud explosion. He concluded that no damage was done after having checked the audiogram. (8kHz max.)
Also, I have read this many times here on the forum. People have tinnitus complaints and nothing is wrong according to a specialist (ENT).
But I do think you are correct when you say "we know what constitutes normal, healthy hearing".
I can understand that there needs to be much more than the standard 8kHz audiogram.
Especially after my own experience regarding this issue.
But that is a completely different discussion
I don't want to sound too negative. That is not how I feel about al the research that is happening at the moment.
This is interesting. Because I have had this idea for some time now that binaural fusion, or a disrupted binaural fusion, perhaps as a result of a unilateral cochlear damage, may be instigating chronic tinnitus. Has binaural fusion been studied in relation to tinnitus?The brain's amplifier compensates by turning up central gain. This is why people who don't have chronic subjective tinnitus can experience it by putting in earplugs
This is interesting. Because I have had this idea for some time now that binaural fusion, or a disrupted binaural fusion, perhaps as a result of a unilateral cochlear damage, may be instigating chronic tinnitus. Has binaural fusion been studied in relation to tinnitus?
Hi Samir, you'll have to give me a little more context for what you mean by "binaural fusion". The inputs from the two ear are fused at a very early stage of processing in the auditory brainstem. Our perception of where sounds occur in space arises directly from precise computations of tiny differences in the amplitude and timing differences of sound pressure waveform at each ear. The ability to spatially separate the sound of your conversation partner across the table from the loud speech babble of people seated nearby is essential to tracking a conversation in noise. When there is hearing loss, these brainstem circuits cannot do their job, which can cause problems with speech communication. But I have not made a connection between these processes and tinnitus.
Now, you may be referring to I-dosing. I-dosing is advertised as "digital drugs" that let people get high off sound. They really are audio files that take advantage of binaural processing to induce binaural beats at certain frequencies in your central auditory system. This thread started with a description of a 10 Hz sound file. If neurons synchronize to a 10 Hz modulation frequency, it should induce an alpha rhythm (relaxation, drowsiness). I have wondered whether an audio engineering aficionado like @Steve has played with binaural beats in the context of tinnitus. I haven't read much about this but I think it could have some interesting implications.