33 Decibel Earplug Not Protecting from Sound?

[Zinnia]

I'm using a foam earplug (I also use filter earplugs) to get maximum protection from work (school) sounds which recently have been between 85- approx 120? (I've read that clapping hands can be 130 db & that was one of the the exposures- clapping at a school concert)

Despite wearing the earplug I've had increases in T and the H has worsened. It's not anxiety... the increases in T volume and tone have been absolutely distinct.

How can this be happening? Bone conduction sound making my ear worse?? (the earplug has been inserted correctly too) Ear just ridiculously sensitive to sound now? I don't know what to think.

This just seems crazy... anyone have insight? Any similar experiences?

 

[quietatnight]

@Zinnia

I'm sorry, I was reading your "Cause for tinnitus" what do you mean by "Two fingered very loud whistle" ? are you talking about when a person puts their fingers in their mouth, and whistlers to try and call someone ?

I was just wondering, I have never heard of that causing anyone to get tinnitus ?


Using a cell phone as a DB meter is not real accurate, You need a meter that is weighted to get a real exact reading that most people don't have. I really don't think that the clapping that you are being exposed to is as loud as you think it is. Foam ear plugs should be giving you enough attenuation to protect you from that kind of damage. Yes their is some bone conduction, but I have a hard time thinking that it's going to be enough cause you any hearing damage. How long are you exposed to the clapping over all ? I would think that it's not constant either.


I'm sorry that your having a hard time with this problem. I understand how frustrating that it can be.



Louie

Quietatnight

 

[racerfish]

33 db NRR doesn't mean 120 db - 33 db = 87 db of sound going into your ears. Personally, I wouldn't go to a concert or club even with ear plugs because I know that even the best ear plugs won't protect me enough from 120 db + levels of sound that are sometimes typical in those environments.

That said, everyone is different and has different tolerance levels.

 

[TuneOut]

Wow, I wouldnt have thought clapping to be that loud but I looked it up and there is a chart that claims that clapping hands at 1m is 130db. Also, according to one study, a balloon popping can be as loud as a shotgun blast.

Also, earplugs and earmuffs don't block low-frequency sounds as well. This is why I bought a pair of Bose QC 20 earplugs. They have noise-cancelling that very effectively lowers continuous low-frequency sound. They are expensive, though. Most noise cancelling headphones are ineffective. Bose seems to have mastered the tech. But for most noise situations, earplugs/earmuffs are best.

 

[Zinnia]

33 db NRR doesn't mean 120 db - 33 db = 87 db of sound going into your ears. Personally, I wouldn't go to a concert or club even with ear plugs because I know that even the best ear plugs won't protect me enough from 120 db + levels of sound that are sometimes typical in those environments.

That said, everyone is different and has different tolerance levels.

It doesn't? I've been subtracting like that as a way of figuring out loudness of sound w/ earplugs. What am I missing? Are you considering bone conduction and that's why you say it's not that straightforward?

...it was a school concert and the clapping is what was so loud. The rest of it were kids singing. I wouldn't go to a club or real music concert now either... I just thought the earplug would have protected me from the clapping.

 

[racerfish]

It doesn't? I've been subtracting like that as a way of figuring out loudness of sound w/ earplugs. What am I missing? Are you considering bone conduction and that's why you say it's not that straightforward?

...it was a school concert and the clapping is what was so loud. The rest of it were kids singing. I wouldn't go to a club or real music concert now either... I just thought the earplug would have protected me from the clapping.

I wasn't able to find the one that I've used before but came across this...
https://www.noisemeters.com/apps/occ/prot-nrr.asp

 

[Zinnia]

@Zinnia

I'm sorry, I was reading your "Cause for tinnitus" what do you mean by "Two fingered very loud whistle" ? are you talking about when a person puts their fingers in their mouth, and whistlers to try and call someone ?

I was just wondering, I have never heard of that causing anyone to get tinnitus ?


Using a cell phone as a DB meter is not real accurate, You need a meter that is weighted to get a real exact reading that most people don't have. I really don't think that the clapping that you are being exposed to is as loud as you think it is. Foam ear plugs should be giving you enough attenuation to protect you from that kind of damage. Yes their is some bone conduction, but I have a hard time thinking that it's going to be enough cause you any hearing damage. How long are you exposed to the clapping over all ? I would think that it's not constant either.


I'm sorry that your having a hard time with this problem. I understand how frustrating that it can be.



Louie

Quietatnight

Yes, the type of whistle you described and that is exactly when this nightmare started for me and now it's worsening with hyperacusis.

I discovered too that smartphone sound meters are not very accurate. I have a handheld decibel meter and it has registered approx 15 decibels above a smartphone reading.

The clapping occurred approx 6 times for about 5-7 seconds each time. Online I've read clapping can be 130 db, that seems so high, hard to believe.

 

[Zinnia]

I wasn't able to find the one that I've used before but came across this...
https://www.noisemeters.com/apps/occ/prot-nrr.asp

So I haven't been getting the protection I thought I was getting! At work I think i'm being exposed to 33 db less than the noise. This is why it's getting worse!!! OMG. Is this common knowledge? How did I miss learning this? Seriously, do most people know this?

 

[Ed209]

33 db NRR doesn't mean 120 db - 33 db = 87 db of sound going into your ears. Personally, I wouldn't go to a concert or club even with ear plugs because I know that even the best ear plugs won't protect me enough from 120 db + levels of sound that are sometimes typical in those environments.

That said, everyone is different and has different tolerance levels.

Racerfish, you do subtract the level to give an attenuation figure. I'm pretty sure you are referring to those websites that give an estimation based on incorrectly fitted (and incorrectly used) plugs. If the plug is deeply inserted and your ear canal is sealed, then you get the full protection. This especially applies to custom molded plugs as they are specifically designed for your ears.

@Zinnia, I can assure you that ear plugs in a school environment will provide good protection. I highly doubt you are being exposed to sustained levels of 130db; that seems absurdly high to me. At that level everyone in the room would be experiencing ear pain and you'd likely find people holding their ears. Slip Knot, the metal band for example, try to limit their shows to an average of 109db.

I've been trained as a sound engineer, and we often had to limit the decibels we put out in certain venues. I have a good knowledge of sound. All I can tell you is that a lot has to do with the acoustics of a room, and what dampening there is such as curtains and carpets. Small pub gigs average around 92-102db depending where you stand. Occasionally (rarely) you can get silly ones hitting 11odb+ Arenas and bigger shows can easily exceed 120db. Some of the loudest gigs ever recorded (such as the who) were measured around the 130db. Just put that into perspective; do you honestly believe your school is louder than the who?

With all this said, take caution, and maybe buy an SPL meter and measure the noise. If you are uncomfortable with 33db reduction plugs then have a word with the head.

If you're being exposed to dangerous noise then you need to think about avoiding or limiting your exposure to it.

 

[maltese]

So I haven't been getting the protection I thought I was getting! At work I think i'm being exposed to 33 db less than the noise. This is why it's getting worse!!! OMG. Is this common knowledge? How did I miss learning this? Seriously, do most people know this?

@Ed209 is right, you just subtract 33db. @racerfish is close to the truth but not quite this number (33dB) comes from experiments performed on a group of people and is called "assumed protection level".

However, those people are instructed how to use their ear protection and hence achieve good fit - unrealistic assumption is everyday workplace environment.

To adjust for this we use NNR (SF) - subtract 7 and divide by two (33 - 7) / 2 = 13 dB. This number is supposed to provide an approximation to actual noise reduction taking into account incorrect fit, leaks, and even taking out the earplug during exposure.

Some reading (if you don't want to trust a random guy on the forum):

• http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/...how-to-use-the-noise-reduction-rating-nrr.pdf
• (WARNING: MATH) https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/z-draft-u...compdev/pdfs/NIOSH_Compendium_Calculation.pdf

CC @Bill Bauer


TL;DR Use care while fitting earplugs and they'll provide full protection. Assuming full protection, exposure is computed using equations:

protected dBA = unprotected dBC - NRR​

 

[Ed209]

@Zinnia, in fact here's a link to give you an idea of how loud the loudest rock shows of all time are:

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/10-Loudest-Rock-Bands.aspx

Note how AC/DC did a run of shows at 130db, but a series of complaints meant they had to turn it down.

Have a read through the rest of that article. It will give you an idea of what 115db + is like at a sustained level. It is seriously LOUD.

You have to remember that the decibel scale is logarithmic. It takes 3db to double the energy involved, and from a human perspective it takes between 6db-10db (depending on the subjects hearing sensitivity) to feel as though the sound has doubled in volume. Think about how loud that is. 90db is loud; 130db would be perceptibly, somewhere around 4 to 5 times louder. That's doubling the perceived intensity each time you step it up. It's insanely loud trust me. I'm a gig veteran and I know a lot about noise, hence why I've got T.

 

[Zinnia]

@Zinnia, in fact here's a link to give you an idea how loud the loudest rock shows are:

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/10-Loudest-Rock-Bands.aspx

Have a read through that to give you an idea of what 130db is like at a sustained level. It is seriously LOUD.

You have to remember that the decibel scale is logarithmic. It takes 3db to double the energy involved, and from a human perspective it takes between 6db-10db (depending on the subjects hearing sensitivity) to feel as though the sound has doubled in volume. Think about how loud that is. 90db is loud; 130db would be perceptibly, somewhere around 4 to 5 times louder. That's doubling the perceived intensity each time you step it up. It's insanely loud trust me. I'm a gig veteran and I know a lot about noise, hence why I've got T.

Yes, 130 is very loud and I didn't measure that using a meter. I was specifically talking about the hand clapping during the school performance (in a gymnasium.) The gym filled up with people clapping. It felt VERY loud and when I looked it up online it said clapping could reach 130 db.

 

[Ed209]

Yes, 130 is very loud and I didn't measure that using a meter. I was specifically talking about the hand clapping during the school performance (in a gymnasium.) The gym filled up with people clapping. It felt VERY loud and when I looked it up online it said clapping could reach 130 db.

Clapping is not really a broadband noise, and it's unlikely to be anywhere near that loud at your eardrum. Sound is a complicated thing, but natural sounds tend to dissipate more quickly and easily, and don't really cover a wide spectrum. By far the biggest threat is amplified noise involving speakers, because this is a different animal entirely. Amplified sound waves generally carry much more energy, and can easily fill a room with a wide spectrum of noise at high intensity.

To be honest, if you're genuinely concerned, get your head to hire a proper calibrated professional SPL device and see what it says. She has a professional obligation to protect her staff, so if there is a big problem at your school, health and safety will have to take action.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Instructions on how to properly insert foam earplugs are available on YouTube. Just search for "correct way to insert earplugs".

It is not straightforward.

 

[Tinker Bell]

Instructions on how to properly insert foam earplugs are available on YouTube. Just search for "correct way to insert earplugs".

It is not straightforward.

I thought you have to roll to ear plug as small as possible. Pull up and back near the top of your ear. Insert the plug with a slight turning motion (as if you were screwing it in place). Then hold it in place until it expands to fill the ear. Not sure why but that part always seems to take forever. The OCD in me always gives it a little push once it's in place, too.

Am I missing a step? I'm currently somewhere that I can't run a YouTube video.

 

[TuneOut]

@Zinnia, in fact here's a link to give you an idea of how loud the loudest rock shows of all time are:

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/10-Loudest-Rock-Bands.aspx

Note how AC/DC did a run of shows at 130db, but a series of complaints meant they had to turn it down.

Have a read through the rest of that article. It will give you an idea of what 115db + is like at a sustained level. It is seriously LOUD.

You have to remember that the decibel scale is logarithmic. It takes 3db to double the energy involved, and from a human perspective it takes between 6db-10db (depending on the subjects hearing sensitivity) to feel as though the sound has doubled in volume. Think about how loud that is. 90db is loud; 130db would be perceptibly, somewhere around 4 to 5 times louder. That's doubling the perceived intensity each time you step it up. It's insanely loud trust me. I'm a gig veteran and I know a lot about noise, hence why I've got T.

Wouldn't 130 dB be 16x louder than 90dB, at a doubling of loudness every 10db?

 

[Tom Cnyc]

you missed the step where you get custom plugs that are built FOR YOU.

http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/making-the-case-for-custom-12959

 

[TuneOut]

Loudest Clap World Record

The loudest clap measured 113 dBA and was produced by Alastair Galpin (New Zealand) at the University of Auckland, New Zealand, on 2 November 2008.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/loudest-clap/

Interestingly, he also holds these records:

Alastair Galpin has broken over 85 world records for feats including having the most snails on the face (eight in 10 seconds) and the most rubber-bands stretched over the face (62 in one minute). He also holds the most stamps licked (57 in one minute), loudest clap, and the fastest time to peel and eat three kiwifruit.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I thought you have to roll to ear plug as small as possible. Pull up and back near the top of your ear. Insert the plug with a slight turning motion (as if you were screwing it in place). Then hold it in place until it expands to fill the ear. Not sure why but that part always seems to take forever. The OCD in me always gives it a little push once it's in place, too.

Am I missing a step? I'm currently somewhere that I can't run a YouTube video.

Those are the steps (at least according to the YouTube videos I had a chance to see)!

 

[Tinker Bell]

Those are the steps (at least according to the YouTube videos I had a chance to see)!

Whew, thanks!

 

[Zinnia]

@Ed209 is right, you just subtract 33db. @racerfish is close to the truth but not quite this number (33dB) comes from experiments performed on a group of people and is called "assumed protection level".

However, those people are instructed how to use their ear protection and hence achieve good fit - unrealistic assumption is everyday workplace environment.

To adjust for this we use NNR (SF) - subtract 7 and divide by two (33 - 7) / 2 = 13 dB. This number is supposed to provide an approximation to actual noise reduction taking into account incorrect fit, leaks, and even taking out the earplug during exposure.

Some reading (if you don't want to trust a random guy on the forum):

• http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/...how-to-use-the-noise-reduction-rating-nrr.pdf
• (WARNING: MATH) https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/z-draft-u...compdev/pdfs/NIOSH_Compendium_Calculation.pdf

CC @Bill Bauer


TL;DR Use care while fitting earplugs and they'll provide full protection. Assuming full protection, exposure is computed using equations:

protected dBA = unprotected dBC - NRR​

Thanks for the links and your helpful explanation. The 3M link seems to make it clear that the reduction is due to user error inserting earplugs, like you explained. I'll assume then if I insert the earplug correctly, my ear should be protected to the rating of the earplug..

Thank you so much

 

[Zinnia]

Racerfish, you do subtract the level to give an attenuation figure. I'm pretty sure you are referring to those websites that give an estimation based on incorrectly fitted (and incorrectly used) plugs. If the plug is deeply inserted and your ear canal is sealed, then you get the full protection. This especially applies to custom molded plugs as they are specifically designed for your ears.

@Zinnia, I can assure you that ear plugs in a school environment will provide good protection. I highly doubt you are being exposed to sustained levels of 130db; that seems absurdly high to me. At that level everyone in the room would be experiencing ear pain and you'd likely find people holding their ears. Slip Knot, the metal band for example, try to limit their shows to an average of 109db.

I've been trained as a sound engineer, and we often had to limit the decibels we put out in certain venues. I have a good knowledge of sound. All I can tell you is that a lot has to do with the acoustics of a room, and what dampening there is such as curtains and carpets. Small pub gigs average around 92-102db depending where you stand. Occasionally (rarely) you can get silly ones hitting 11odb+ Arenas and bigger shows can easily exceed 120db. Some of the loudest gigs ever recorded (such as the who) were measured around the 130db. Just put that into perspective; do you honestly believe your school is louder than the who?

With all this said, take caution, and maybe buy an SPL meter and measure the noise. If you are uncomfortable with 33db reduction plugs then have a word with the head.

If you're being exposed to dangerous noise then you need to think about avoiding or limiting your exposure to it.

Thanks so much for your responses. I'm understanding better now.

 

[Zinnia]

I wasn't able to find the one that I've used before but came across this...
https://www.noisemeters.com/apps/occ/prot-nrr.asp

Based on what some people have written, this reduction rating is due to user error but I understand it's clearly in the literature.

 

[Ed209]

Wouldn't 130 dB be 16x louder than 90dB, at a doubling of loudness every 10db?

Yes, logarithmically it would be. I tried to simplify it by stating the amount of times the volume doubles, but of course each doubling of volume is double as loud.

 

[Zinnia]

I just hope the T volume goes down... I feel so stupid even being there during that concert. The kids singing didn't seem that loud but the clapping really did seem very loud. I'm scared that the reverberations cause the decibels to be even higher. I thought i was doing the right thing wearing an earplug and i think it was in all the way... but the T increase was immediate.

I'm sorry to be beating a dead horse I'm just so worried that I caused this increase and more damage to my already compromised ear. Hopefully it will just be a spike and go down. Right now it's been 5 day since the clapping.