8 Months of Tinnitus with Little Relief... YOUR ANSWERS MAY GIVE ME SOME PEACE!

[Cyberdrink]

in May of 2015 i used a chainsaw and log splitter for hours without hearing protection (stupid i know). within a couple of weeks of using the chainsaw and log splitter my wife remembers that i started complaining of my ears ringing from time to time... everything changed on June 7th, 2015 when my T became very intrusive and what i perceive as CONSTANT AND LOUD.

in the beginning of my tinnitus journey i assumed that my tinnitus was from the loud noise of the chainsaw and log splitter (i can vividly remember by ears were hurting and burning and screaming) while using the machines.

this may seem weird to some, but i was actually doing pretty good at getting used to my tinnitus because i truly believed that it was noise-induced (there's really not much that can be done for that... except wait and hope). knowing there was nothing i could do made it easier for me to accept.

THIS IS WHERE THINGS WENT BAD - a few months ago i found that i can manipulate my T with movements of my jaw. pretty much any movement at all will increase my tinnitus significantly. pushing my jaw forward or back or even from side to side makes my T scream!

so then i started thinking the following... if this is "somatic T", not "noise-induced T", then there might be something i can do about this!

HERE'S MY QUESTION...

Can noise induced tinnitus also be "somatic" manipulated with jaw or even neck movements? or does my T being affected by jaw manipulation indicate that it is not actually noise induced?

please know i've read every thread on this website regarding "somatic T", so i know there's loads of people with it. this issue is that they all seem to not be sure of their cause! the problem is there seems to be a serious difference between the people's opinion here. some consider "somatic T" to be T that is actually CAUSED by an issue outside of the ear (muscles/bones/nerves in the jaw or neck or etc.). Others believe that "somatic T" is T that could be caused by anything, but rather what makes it "somatic" is that the tinnitus sound can merely be AFFECTED by movements of the jaw/neck/eyes etc.

do you see the difference? it really matters to be because i would LOVE to go back to believing it's possible my T started from using the machines... if i think that it is related to some muscle or bone or structure i can't stop from wanting to see specialist (chiropractors, TMJ, acupuncture, etc.).

as ridiculous as this is... here's the truth: if i believe my T is being created by some muscle or bone issue, my brain wont let me accept it! i'm constantly looking up different methods to treat it... if i believe my T can be noise induced, then my brain knows there's not much that can be done, and i relax about it...

please tell me there's people out there that know their T is noise induced, but they also happen to be able to manipulate their sound with jaw/neck movements...

I'M DESPERATE FOR SOME RESPONSES PLEASE!!!

 

[erik]

I think the truth is no one really knows for sure. T is that mystery that for hundreds of years they thought it was just in the ear. Only recently, has it even been accepted that it is more of a brain condition and that's where we need to start.

I have T I can manipulate just my pressing on my forehead, or barely moving my jaw side to side (most T people do). Do I believe my T is an inner ear , bone or muscle issue - No. I am pretty sure mine is caused by noise trauma from a combination of years of loud music, concerts, DJ'ing and aging.

I once thought it could be body related. I tried every supplement (over 50+) and treatment known to man (acupuncture, chiro, naturopath dr's, massage, sacra-cranial massage etc). Spent thousands of $$$ over a course of about 1.5 years. I still have T.

Of course, you origin could be completely different. That's why T is so hard to treat. It is hard to treat something where you don't know the exact cause (because there could be several); however, the results are the same = T.

 

[linearb]

Can noise induced tinnitus also be "somatic" manipulated with jaw or even neck movements? or does my T being affected by jaw manipulation indicate that it is not actually noise induced?

Yes, absolutely. This is very common; a research paper by Dr. Salvi at SUNY Buffalo found that something like 80% of people with tinnitus exhibit this.

More recent research by Dr. Shore at the University of Michigan has found a possible explanation for this; the very short summary is that when a certain part of the brain is deprived of auditory input as a result of hearing loss, there is an increase in the amount of activity coming from sensory nerves. So, basically, the touch feelings from the muscle are "crossing over" into the audio stream.

That said, for some people, the severity of the crossover does seem to relate to how tense/pissed off the muscles are. I have lots of neck and jaw issues, and when that stuff is really flaring up, it makes the tinnitus worse. So, if you have neck, back or jaw issues that cause you pain which you'd like to treat for other reasons, then stuff like physical therapy seems reasonable, and there's some chance that doing that stuff might change your tinnitus to some extent, but I would not spend a bunch of money on it just out of blind hope that it's gonna fix your T.

 

[linearb]

I think the truth is no one really knows for sure.

No one knows for sure, indeed! However, I am optimistic that this is already changing. Check this out, they mapped out a very plausible explanation of why this might happen in the brains of living mammals:

 

[Cyberdrink]

@linearb @erik

thank you both so much for your replies!

@erik - sounds like we've been down similar paths... i've seen two different chiropractors and also a TMJ specialist that charged me an outrageous dollar amount for a plastic splint that was totally useless. the one thing that is still attractive to me is trigger point injection therapy.

@linearb - i've heard that statistic before (RE: 80% of T suffers being able to modulate their T via physical movements). the issue i take with the stat is how, at least in my own research / endless forum reading, i have found just about no one who has for-sure noise trauma induced T (obviously presenting after a gunshot, concert, etc.) that can also manipulate it physically...

here's a good question... why does it matter, right?

here's why... at least to me.

noise induced T is almost always stable over time... worrying about my T getting worse is a huge anxiety provoker for me... if i could know mine is noise induced i really think that fear would be relieved. (link:http://www.tinnitusjournal.com/detalhe_artigo.asp?id=125 - see the "stability over time" section)

also... here's where i'm getting information on somatic T, really good info and from a good source... link:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3129953/

any further thoughts would be really appreciated and enjoyed!

thanks again, guys - you are some good fellows!

 

[Cyberdrink]

@erik & @linearb oh yeah... i should mention... does my audio-gram (hearing test) being totally normal (no deficits whatsoever) have any impact on your opinion of my T?

check this PDF out... pretty good basic info - says a chainsaw can cause hearing issues within 1-2 minutes with no protection!

link: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2007-175/pdfs/2007-175.pdf

 

[erik]

@erik & @linearb oh yeah... i should mention... does my audio-gram (hearing test) being totally normal (no deficits whatsoever) have any impact on your opinion of my T?

check this PDF out... pretty good basic info - says a chainsaw can cause hearing issues within 1-2 minutes with no protection!

link: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2007-175/pdfs/2007-175.pdf

That is good information. Thanks for sharing.

Many people with T have normal audiograms. I don't believe they are a good indicator of T in many people. Mine was also normal. It was until I got a high freq audiogram that it showed hearing loss around 13-14K.

 

[Cyberdrink]

IF ANYONE ELSE IS READING THIS I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE TO HEAR YOUR OPINION AS WELL!!!

 

[Atlantis]

Can noise induced tinnitus also be "somatic" manipulated with jaw or even neck movements? or does my T being affected by jaw manipulation indicate that it is not actually noise induced?

YES OVER 80% OF PEOPLE WITH NOISE-INDUCED TINNITUS CAN MANIPULATE THEIR TINNITUS BY SOMATIC MOVEMENTS!

IS THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND?

 

[Cyberdrink]

@Atlantis didn't mean to upset you. you sound very certain. that's great.

please understand... I've read that statistic RE: 80% of T suffers can modulate their T (just not specific to noise induced). here's a good example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633109/

can you share a link to where you got your data (that is specific to noise induced T)? there's stuff all over about T being able to be manipulated... not much i was able to find RE: noise induced T being manipulated.

 

[Zorro!]

I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer but I don't see the relevance of your query, Cyberdrink. I have noise-induced hearing loss/tinnitus and yes, if I move my jaw I can notice a change in tinnitus volume. -- But it is a moot point. I can't hold my jaw in an extended position 24/7 just to change the sound of my T. That's impossible.

Unless one's tinnitus is caused by TMJ I see little value in worrying over jaw manipulation. It won't get you anywhere except more frustrated and anxious over this condition. Give yourself a break and try to resume your previous, carefree attitude that was leading towards habituation.

Best wishes always

 

[Dave AUS]

Yes it can @Cyberdrink as I am proof of that!!

I have noise induced T. Walked into a rock concert with fine hearing and walked out with T which got worse in the first 2 months. I can put my fingers on my forehead and push against it with elevates the loudness of T. Likewise I can rotate my head to the extreme left or right and can do the same. Again likewise when I'm upside down. Same with yawning.

Over time the increased loudness from doing the above isn't so pronounced now.

I understand your question as T makes you bonkers. It has to me 8 months in. I've lost the person I once was.

 

[Cyberdrink]

wow. @Dave AUS THANK YOU so much for your response! your T sounds extremely similar to mine. we've even had it for about the same time! hope you don't mind me asking, but what about if you thrust your jaw around? like very far out or back or side to side? what about jaw clench? i appreciate your response a ton.

 

[Nucleo]

You've used a chainsaw for hours. You've seen the article that mentions it can cause damage within minutes. It is most certainly the cause of your tinnitus. Almost everyone (myself included, for barotrauma induced T) can modulate their tinnitus by jaw or neck movements. @linearb explained why is that. It is of absolutely no value for a prognosis.

Audiograms are not good indicators for anything tinnitus related. Audiograms are for detecting a loss of hearing sensivity. Loss of hearing sensitivity is not the only type of damage that occurs after a sound trauma. That's why you can have a perfect audiogram with tinnitus.

 

[linearb]

Audiograms are not good indicators for anything tinnitus related. Audiograms are for detecting a loss of hearing sensivity. Loss of hearing sensitivity is not the only type of damage that occurs after a sound trauma. That's why you can have a perfect audiogram with tinnitus.

The researcher I am working with in my current treatment trial, casually mentioned to me, "when we induce tinnitus in our research animals, we do it at a volume level which does not induce a threshold shift", and I said "wait, wait, you can reliably induce tinnitus using sound exposure that doesn't cause a threshold shift?!" and she said "oh, yes, sure!"

I'm just going to let that sink in for a second.

 

[Dave AUS]

wow. @Torture24/7hope you don't mind me asking, but what about if you thrust your jaw around? like very far out or back or side to side? what about jaw clench? i appreciate your response a ton.

Stick my jaw out or thrust it side to side (which is uncomfortable and unnatural in feeling) or clench my jaw and the T volume increases slightly. In the early days of my T the perceived increase in volume was greater than doing those same things now. I did have a sore, stiff neck and a sore jaw back then from all the stress of T. On a side note I actually chipped my tooth by uncontrollably clenching my jaw approximately 4 months after T onset.

 

[Nucleo]

The researcher I am working with in my current treatment trial, casually mentioned to me, "when we induce tinnitus in our research animals, we do it at a volume level which does not induce a threshold shift", and I said "wait, wait, you can reliably induce tinnitus using sound exposure that doesn't cause a threshold shift?!" and she said "oh, yes, sure!"

I'm just going to let that sink in for a second.

It is worrying that the NIOSH guide for sound exposure (85 dB for 8 hours) are based on the lowest noise where chronic exposure causes changes in hearing thresholds.

There is now evidence that hearing damage may occur as low as 70 dB of continuous exposure.

 

[linearb]

There is now evidence that hearing damage may occur as low as 70 dB of continuous exposure.

...which makes sleeping with a loud fan with tinnitus, seem like an exceptionally bad idea (I have clocked mine at ~74)

 

[linearb]

@Nucleo can you show me the evidence? I believe you, I'm just hyper interested in this.

 

[Nucleo]

@Nucleo can you show me the evidence? I believe you, I'm just hyper interested in this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23154196

http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v15/n7/full/nrn3744.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22532192

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22588305

http://www.noiseandhealth.org/artic...me=15;issue=64;spage=153;epage=159;aulast=van

Basically just because the mechanical processes in the inner ear that transform sound pressure variations into sound are not damaged does not mean that your hearing isn't being negatively affected.

Too the the audiogram is really all we have and what everyone keeps using.

 

[Cyberdrink]

I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer but I don't see the relevance of your query, Cyberdrink. I have noise-induced hearing loss/tinnitus and yes, if I move my jaw I can notice a change in tinnitus volume. -- But it is a moot point. I can't hold my jaw in an extended position 24/7 just to change the sound of my T. That's impossible.

Unless one's tinnitus is caused by TMJ I see little value in worrying over jaw manipulation. It won't get you anywhere except more frustrated and anxious over this condition. Give yourself a break and try to resume your previous, carefree attitude that was leading towards habituation.

Best wishes always

thanks so much for your reply. i don't think you're being a debby downer at all (just realistic and i really appreciate that). i agree that it's probably a mute point. my reasoning for asking was that i'm not totally sure my T is from noise. yes... i used a chainsaw for hours without protection, but my T didn't start for 1-3 weeks (not sure exactly how long) after the noise exposure.

so basically... if i know there are other people (whom i thankfully now know to be present) with noise induced T that can manipulate their sound with jaw movements, i could go back to believing my T is noise induced. not sure if i'm making sense to you. maybe not. sorry.. thanks for your response though!

you say your T is noise induced... how did you get yours?

also... any thought on my T not starting directly after the noise exposure? i mean i know the chainsaw was terrible... i vividly remember it being so loud that my ears were burning and hurting and screaming while using it (can't believe i didn't stop and find some protection!).

 

[Cyberdrink]

The researcher I am working with in my current treatment trial, casually mentioned to me, "when we induce tinnitus in our research animals, we do it at a volume level which does not induce a threshold shift", and I said "wait, wait, you can reliably induce tinnitus using sound exposure that doesn't cause a threshold shift?!" and she said "oh, yes, sure!"

I'm just going to let that sink in for a second.

wow... that's actually very encouraging to me. you see something else regarding my T that makes me wonder if it's actually due to the chainsaw noise exposure is that i did not notice my T right after using the chainsaw. yes, while actually using the chainsaw it was sooo loud my ears were burning, hurting, and ringing like crazy, but i didn't notice T that night or anything. it wasn't until weeks later that i really became aware and bothered by it. however, my wife does say that she remembers me offhandedly making a few comments about my ears bothering me within a few days - one week after the chainsaw. in any of your research have you heard of that sort of "delayed onset T"?

 

[Cyberdrink]

@Nucleo you seem to also know loads about T... any thoughts on my "delayed T onset" (of 1-3 weeks)?

 

[linearb]

wow... that's actually very encouraging to me. you see something else regarding my T that makes me wonder if it's actually due to the chainsaw noise exposure is that i did not notice my T right after using the chainsaw. yes, while actually using the chainsaw it was sooo loud my ears were burning, hurting, and ringing like crazy, but i didn't notice T that night or anything. it wasn't until weeks later that i really became aware and bothered by it. however, my wife does say that she remembers me offhandedly making a few comments about my ears bothering me within a few days - one week after the chainsaw. in any of your research have you heard of that sort of "delayed onset T"?

This wasn't the case for me, but, my tinnitus story is at least slightly atypical and I've read many stories where the problem wasn't noted until a couple weeks later.

If you had also had a jaw trauma of some kind at the same time, then it might be more confusing, but given that you did have an injury to your ears, and did not have any kind of muscle trauma in that timeframe, it seems a lot more likely that this is simple noise-induced damage/tinnitus.

As to why it doesn't show up instantly, I am not by any means a neurologist, but I think there are some mechanisms which have been documented that can explain the delay. For instance, in the rabbit research I mentioned above, what happens is that as a result of acoustic trauma there's a loss of auditory input to the dorsal cochlear nucleus in the brain, and as a result, sensory/muscle nerve pathways end up being "turned up" (overexpressed). This doesn't happen instantly. You can change brain function pretty close to instantly with chemicals: inject someone with a bunch of Diazepam, and they will become relaxed almost instantly. But, brain structure changes more slowly as a result of "neuroplasticity", its tendency to reorganize itself based on input.

 

[erik]

The researcher I am working with in my current treatment trial, casually mentioned to me, "when we induce tinnitus in our research animals, we do it at a volume level which does not induce a threshold shift", and I said "wait, wait, you can reliably induce tinnitus using sound exposure that doesn't cause a threshold shift?!" and she said "oh, yes, sure!"

I'm just going to let that sink in for a second.

And I bet animals hate tinnitus as much as we do.....

 

[erik]

@Nucleo you seem to also know loads about T... any thoughts on my "delayed T onset" (of 1-3 weeks)?

Read the section on Pathophysiology here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686891/

 

[Dutchy]

It is worrying that the NIOSH guide for sound exposure (85 dB for 8 hours) are based on the lowest noise where chronic exposure causes changes in hearing thresholds.

There is now evidence that hearing damage may occur as low as 70 dB of continuous exposure.

Hmm,kind of like a rapid wear and tear mechanism then even when it's at acceptable DB's.

 

[linearb]

And I bet animals hate tinnitus as much as we do.....

I'm sure they don't love it and I have very mixed feelings about animal research overall. I think that while basic emotions like fear, anxiety and unhappiness can be felt in animals, I also think that most of what makes tinnitus so terrible in humans is deeply reliant on the same things which allow humans in general to 'suffer' in the Zen sense: our ability to clearly remember the past, and project ourselves into the future. Higher primates appear to share some of these abilities; simpler animals do not.

Also, given how much (relatively recent) research has shown widespread differences in emotional processing among people with severe tinnitus distress, it may well be that animals, with a much less complex emotional system, are simply not capable of suffering from it in the same manner we do.

Of course, this argument can be used to justify all sorts of horrible things, if it's used in a sufficiently discursive way.

Animal rights, on the whole, are not given much more than lip service. People complain about animals being deafened or injected with Prozac analogs, and then many of these same people continue to eat industrially farmed meat. I would wager that the life of a typical lab animal is far less stressful than the life of a chicken raised in a little box, that spends its entire life enclosed in a space where it can't even turn around. At least tinnitus research animals have led to a better understanding of the condition; on the flip-side, cheap meat animals have just contributed to unhealthy diets, the mass proliferation of antibiotic-resistant strains of diseases, and a completely unsustainable demand for ever more cheap meat.

Sorry to go off on a rant, but, this is something I have put a good deal of thought in to. I am willing to participate in research trials which are built on the backs of deafened animals; I also spend $8/dozen on eggs so that I can get ones which claim to come from a magical farm where every hen has 100 square feet of outdoor space to itself. I am not at all saying that doing one of these things justifies the other, and I also don't think people are wrong to suggest that the simple act of farming animals at all now is a needless and fundamentally antisocial practice. And, I am fully aware that being able to do either of these things reeks of privilege.

It's all very, very complicated.

 

[erik]

Hmm,kind of like a rapid wear and tear mechanism then even when it's at acceptable DB's.

Yes and since hearing damage is cumulative it may take a long time to show.

 

[Cyberdrink]

@erik

"The dorsal cochlear nucleus
The DCN has been implicated as a possible site for the generation of tinnitus-related signals owing to its tendency to become hyperactive following exposure to tinnitus-inducing agents such as intense sound and cisplatin.47 OHC damage triggers plastic readjustments in the DCN, resulting in DCN hyperactivity.48 It is hypothesized that a reduction in auditorynerve input leads to disinhibition of the DCN and an increase in spontaneous activity in the central auditory system, which manifests as tinnitus.49This mechanism could explain the temporary ringing sensation that can follow exposure to loud sound.50The plastic readjustments in the DCN are slow and lead to tinnitus with a delayed onset. IHC damage prevents hyperactivity in the DCN"

wow... thanks for that info. very interesting.