A Chinese Medical Report Shows Cutting Cochlear Nerve Cured Tinnitus

[Leqi]

A Chinese Medical Report shows cutting cochlear nerve cured tinnitus.
http://www.doc88.com/p-3993710989438.html
The report is in Chinese, published ages ago, in the report, it states that two patients with severe T had significant relief after having the cochlear nerve cut, one was totally cured and the other one had huge reduction that T no longer bothered him.

This link below reveals the similar results
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7671835
It says one hundred fifty-one cases are reported. Complete relief of tinnitus was achieved in 101 patients, worthwhile improvement was obtained in 43 patients and 7 patients obtained no improvement.

They both indicate that tinnitus must have something to do with our cochlear.

I am not sure if any medical team has gone deeper than the results.

The mechanism of T is now believed as being caused by deeper sections in brain instead of ear itself, based on MRI or some other imaging results showing the overactivity of several brain parts, but, say, when you scan an extremely suicidal person's brain, and if some parts are overactive, you can't end up with conclusion of these deeper brain parts are causing him suicidal, but in fact it works the other way around, the suicidal thoughts, in our case, T, or the emotion makes the brain overactive.

I would be very happy to know that if the root cause is actually in cochlear instead of going deeper in brain, so you don't have to dig it too deep to fix it.

 

[Hopeful1]

Interesting....this disproves theory that tinnitus gets centralised the brain...as these guys must have been chromic suferers..looks like the CNS will revert to normal once auditory nerve is cut.

 

[Ian Mac]

So once you find a doctor all you need to do is sedate/numb the auditory nerve, you don't need to cut it! After sedating the nerve if your tinnitus stops then the origin of T is cochlear not brain and cutting the nerve would work.

 

[Ecip]

Yea, I would most definitely will want to have some tests done that can point to what us causing tinnitus before cutting anything.

 

[Mario martz]

But... once you cut it, your hearing goes away,
right?

 

[Zorro!]

But... once you cut it, your hearing goes away,
right?

Yes, that is what happens as I understand it, you go deaf. It's a very drastic step to take quite frankly and I don't trust this study. As someone pointed out all that would be needed to test this theory is to numb that nerve temporarily. Regardless, cutting the nerve would be insane. Finding a way to "tame" it would be the goal for any serious medical expert.

 

[Mario martz]

Yes, that is what happens as I understand it, you go deaf. It's a very drastic step to take quite frankly and I don't trust this study. As someone pointed out all that would be needed to test this theory is to numb that nerve temporarily. Regardless, cutting the nerve would be insane. Finding a way to "tame" it would be the goal for any serious medical expert.

it doesnt make sense to me..
if tinnitus appears once you lose some hearing,
wouldnt this make tinnitus even fucking louder? lol

 

[Leqi]

it doesnt make sense to me..
if tinnitus appears once you lose some hearing,
wouldnt this make tinnitus even fucking louder? lol

This is why I believe the "brain filling in input gap" theory is wrong. As removing all the inputs doesn't make it catastrophically worse.

 

[Leqi]

oh.BTW. the reason I posted this is not encouraging people to go deaf but starting a discussion of where exactly is our T generated.

If we figure that out, it can be a milestone of T research as when now it comes with the brain theory, all the research teams are pretty much like" oh, well..there is not much we can do at this stage. " And it can be a very misleading thing as well to detour us finding a treatment or cure.

In one post,
@noisebox said "I went to the dentist one time and had local anaesthetic on the T side for a filling. T went right down until it wore off."
@RaZaH "Yep, same here"
@AlexSongitus "This is exactly what happened with me when I did my AM-101 injections. Instant silence and relief by the time they vacuumed the Lidocaine out. I even asked the doctors, look if AM-101 doesn't work, can't I just come in for some sessions of Lidocaine and suctioning?"

Apparently, dental local anesthetic does calm down T, which may explain that T may be in our cochlear which is close to mouth, because I don't think local anesthetic will reach that far to our deep brain.

What do you guys think?

 

[Leqi]

Another point is that lots people can change there T by clenching/moving jaw. I would guess it is because cheek muscle is so close to cochlear which can physically change cochlear behavior, like making it more intense, etc.

If the T signal is generated inside the brain, it would be harder to explain why physical clenching affect the activity in deep deep brain.
That is why I personally support this "cochlear theory".

 

[Zora]

questions after questions. @Cityjohn maybe you can enlighten us here?

 

[Cityjohn]

questions after questions. @Cityjohn maybe you can enlighten us here?

Beat you to it

Interesting....this disproves theory that tinnitus gets centralized the brain...as these guys must have been chronic sufferers..looks like the CNS will revert to normal once auditory nerve is cut.

It doesn't, because that Chinese thing isn't a study and the pubmed article does not dispute the actual facts. Moreover; you say centralized, and then name a pretty big general organ. There is no observable difference between chronic and acute tinnitus. And when there is no observable difference, there is no difference.

I can publish a short study tomorrow stating that gravity doesn't exist but that doesn't disprove the theory of gravity. You have to take all work done in a certain context. Specifically you have to realize most of all science is shit, and more than half turns out to be untrue.

The CNS can't return to normal after you've cut a part of it off, that's a bit like saying your tinnitus can be cured by going into a coma

The mechanism of T is now believed as being caused by deeper sections in brain instead of ear itself,

This really was already suggested for decades but it's kind of hard to properly study.

oh.BTW. the reason I posted this is not encouraging people to go deaf but starting a discussion of where exactly is our T generated.

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/chapter-2-what-is-tinnitus.15681/

The abstract reads; "Intractable subjective tinnitus originating within the cochlea or cochlear nerve can frequently be successfully treated by cochlear nerve section." so the study makes no claim about where tinnitus originates, in fact is clearly suggests it can originate in the cochlea or somewhere else.

Another point is that lots people can change there T by clenching/moving jaw.

This is caused by the facial nerve (3) which interlinks with the auditory nerve and can thus pass on electrical charge.

Tinnitus is generally very well if not completely understood or understandable. Much better than we see here on a daily basis. Study's about it can keep popping up but many of them have to be taken with a grain of salts. Especially when publicized by a single researcher.

@noisebox said "I went to the dentist one time and had local anaesthetic on the T side for a filling. T went right down until it wore off."
@RaZaH "Yep, same here"
@AlexSongitus "This is exactly what happened with me when I did my AM-101 injections. Instant silence and relief by the time they vacuumed the Lidocaine out. I even asked the doctors, look if AM-101 doesn't work, can't I just come in for some sessions of Lidocaine and suctioning?"

Apparently, dental local anesthetic does calm down T, which may explain that T may be in our cochlear which is close to mouth, because I don't think local anesthetic will reach that far to our deep brain.

If a dental injection causes acute relief you can bet that the cause of it lies above the injection. If it does then I suggest you try LLLT in the ears.

 

[Silvio Sabo]

This is caused by the facial nerve (3) which interlinks with the auditory nerve and can thus pass on electrical charge.

View attachment 10746

Tinnitus is generally very well if not completely understood or understandable. Much better than we see here on a daily basis. Study's about it can keep popping up but many of them have to be taken with a grain of salts. Especially when publicized by a single researcher.

I've actually read articles hypothesizing that when input from the cochlea is lowered the gap is filled with electrical stimuli from surrounding nerves such as the facial nerve. And the hypothesis is that this is what is causing tinnitus. Wouldn't it then theoretically be possible to treat tinnitus surgically by insulating the cochlear nerve? I know it would probably be close to impossible to do in practice but at least in theory do you think it would be possible?

 

[Cityjohn]

I've actually read articles hypothesizing that when input from the cochlea is lowered the gap is filled with electrical stimuli from surrounding nerves such as the facial nerve. And the hypothesis is that this is what is causing tinnitus. Wouldn't it then theoretically be possible to treat tinnitus surgically by insulating the cochlear nerve? I know it would probably be close to impossible to do in practice but at least in theory do you think it would be possible?

That's interesting, good pointer. The facial nerve tinnitus connection is one of the things I want to test based on some papers that have come out on stimuli + sound. I'm on my way to the lab to check if I can replicate the ABR, my reasoning was that if I can test ABR I may use the same electrodes to stimulate the facial nerves.
I'd also like to try confinement directed currents on those nerves and see if we can isolate one of them precisely.
When I have some more time left I'll search for some articles on this, perhaps we can do some facial stimulus tests and record a change in the auditory potentials.

I'll ask someone to slap me in the face and compare ABR's haha.

 

[Path Maker]

@Cityjohn I can increase the volume (in the right ear) by clenching the jaw, yes, but also by simply tightening the platysma and the neck muscles, sans any imput to the jaw (In fact, I believe that the neck muscle contraction spill sover to the jaw/face and not the other way around - in my case). Also by full neck rotation in either direction (though moreso with full rotation to the left). And furthermore (and perhaps most confusing, or, telling, with regard to the facial nerve suggestion above), I can also increase the sound by simply sitting or lying perfectly still and motionless and putting pressure straight down on the top of my head (without ANY contraction of facial or neck muscles whatsoever). Do with this what you will, on those marvelous highways of your mind. (As for me, the facial nerve theory is compelling, has some validity, yet I wonder about other possibilities as well ... ).

 

[Contrast]

This is the same as
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7671835

 

[Manny]

@Contrast question, what do you think of this in relation to central gain theory?

 

[Contrast]

@Contrast question, what do you think of this in relation to central gain theory?

it's a hypothesis not a theory but it does not take away from the fact that tinnitus is completely in the brain and not the ear. It just means we don't know what the brain is doing.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2843508/
here it pretty much compliments the idea that restoration of hearing loss will help tinnitus via more input from the audiotory nerve as well as direct observations in CI's, stadectomies, ear plug experiments that can't be refuted.

Central Gain hypothesis can still be true, there are just unknown factors at play.

@Autumnly shared a video with me about why severing the cochlear/vestibular nerve may or may not help tinnitus.

 

[JohnAdams]

So tinnitus isnt "ringing in the brain" because the brain is compensating for a lack of stimulation, it's the nerves that feed into the auditory cortex. The nerves dont have a signal and are firing randomly like an unhooked television. Or a untuned radio. This would explain pulsile T, because now it is being stimulated by the increasing/decreasing pressure of the vascular system. Seems if true then regenerating hair cells seems like a good approach to curing T to me. In the mice they used PCA regeneration drugs in, the hair cells regrew, and the mice could hear. So therefore not just the hair cells, but their connection to the nerves also must have been regenerated. Also this would mean that the nerves arent going to atrophy, as they are ringing which means they are working. Right? I'd appreciate any thoughts.

 

[Manny]

Yeah I still believe in the central gain hypothesis too. Cutting the cochlear nerve probably deactivates all audial neurons entirely, so they stop "buzzing".
Yup I just completely made that up out of nowhere.

 

[Autumnly]

@Autumnly shared a video with me about why severing the cochlear/vestibular nerve may or may not help tinnitus.

If anyone is interested in the video:
Dr. Robert Aaron Levine's Tinnitus Tutorial

I really would love to know how cochlear nerve section could improve someone's tinnitus...

 

[Contrast]

There was a horribly unfortunate case for a gentlemen here who I believe severed his AN in a motorcycle accident and had very bad tinnitus. But he also had a had concussion as well.

So um.... if the forum's search wasn't crap I could probably find it.

 

[hans01]

That's strange, wasn't that already tested before ? I have heard that after cutting the nerve some people still had T ?

 

[JohnAdams]

The deflection of the hair-cell stereocilia opens mechanically gated ion channels that allow any small, positively charged ions (primarily potassium and calcium) to enter the cell.[8] Unlike many other electrically active cells, the hair cell itself does not fire an action potential. Instead, the influx of positive ions from the endolymph in the scala media depolarizes the cell, resulting in a receptor potential. This receptor potential opens voltage gated calcium channels; calcium ions then enter the cell and trigger the release of neurotransmitters at the basal end of the cell. The neurotransmitters diffuse across the narrow space between the hair cell and a nerve terminal, where they then bind to receptors and thus trigger action potentials in the nerve. In this way, the mechanical sound signal is converted into an electrical nerve signal. Repolarization of hair cells is done in a special manner. The perilymph in the scala tympani has a very low concentration of potassium ions. The electrochemical gradient makes the potassium ions flow through channels to the perilymph.

Hair cells chronically leak Ca2+. This leakage causes a tonic release of neurotransmitter to the synapses. It is thought that this tonic release is what allows the hair cells to respond so quickly in response to mechanical stimuli. The quickness of the hair cell response may also be due to the fact that it can increase the amount of neurotransmitter release in response to a change as little as 100 μV in membrane potential.[9]​

Wikipedia.

This leads me to believe the only way to cure tinnitus is to regrow the haircells, and that may NOT fix tinnitis, or cut the nerve? This has my hopes down. The nerves are getting triggered by the hair cells being deflected and that would explain why bent har cells would cause T. They are in a state of permanent mechanical deflection.

 

[Contrast]

The deflection of the hair-cell stereocilia opens mechanically gated ion channels that allow any small, positively charged ions (primarily potassium and calcium) to enter the cell.[8] Unlike many other electrically active cells, the hair cell itself does not fire an action potential. Instead, the influx of positive ions from the endolymph in the scala media depolarizes the cell, resulting in a receptor potential. This receptor potential opens voltage gated calcium channels; calcium ions then enter the cell and trigger the release of neurotransmitters at the basal end of the cell. The neurotransmitters diffuse across the narrow space between the hair cell and a nerve terminal, where they then bind to receptors and thus trigger action potentials in the nerve. In this way, the mechanical sound signal is converted into an electrical nerve signal. Repolarization of hair cells is done in a special manner. The perilymph in the scala tympani has a very low concentration of potassium ions. The electrochemical gradient makes the potassium ions flow through channels to the perilymph.

Hair cells chronically leak Ca2+. This leakage causes a tonic release of neurotransmitter to the synapses. It is thought that this tonic release is what allows the hair cells to respond so quickly in response to mechanical stimuli. The quickness of the hair cell response may also be due to the fact that it can increase the amount of neurotransmitter release in response to a change as little as 100 μV in membrane potential.[9]​

Wikipedia.

This leads me to believe the only way to cure tinnitus is to regrow the haircells, and that may NOT fix tinnitis, or cut the nerve? This has my hopes down. The nerves are getting triggered by the hair cells being deflected and that would explain why bent har cells would cause T. They are in a state of permanent mechanical deflection.

wrong

 

[Contrast]

So tinnitus isnt "ringing in the brain" because the brain is compensating for a lack of stimulation, it's the nerves that feed into the auditory cortex. The nerves dont have a signal and are firing randomly like an unhooked television. Or a untuned radio. This would explain pulsile T, because now it is being stimulated by the increasing/decreasing pressure of the vascular system. Seems if true then regenerating hair cells seems like a good approach to curing T to me. In the mice they used PCA regeneration drugs in, the hair cells regrew, and the mice could hear. So therefore not just the hair cells, but their connection to the nerves also must have been regenerated. Also this would mean that the nerves arent going to atrophy, as they are ringing which means they are working. Right? I'd appreciate any thoughts. View attachment 21115

View attachment 21119

tinnitus is confirmed to be in the brain based on hyper activity in the Dorsal cochlear nucleus after less hearing input from the 8th cranial nerve (audiotory nerve)
https://www.google.com/search?&q=hyperactivity+dorsal+cochlear+nucleus
Please stop bringing up the same refutted arguments, The vast majority of researchers do not believe tinnitus is an inner ear problem. It's a brain issue

Even Jastreboff knows better and to give the devil his due, he played an early role to establish that.

 

[JohnAdams]

at this point I'm just going to admit I have no friggin clue. I can sit here and close my eyes and roll my eyes around innmy head and affect the pitch and amplitude of my shitnitus. even when I scroll a webpage it controls the sound of it. so yeah, that would seem like it's in my brain, not from my cochlea. damn frequency better give up some info in December when their trial concludes. I'm going insane wondering if I'm going to have this forever. It's making me have weird dreams and everything.

 

[Spiral]

Well the fact is if T were caused by just the cochlear nerve and it was cut, 100% of all patients would recover. This conclusion from the study makes me skeptical and it seems like we are regressing a bit if we believe this.

 

[Contrast]

This is the same as
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7671835

Okay i could be wrong about this, I don't know because I can't translate and I don't know any chinese and the text on the website cannot be copied. I tried to open it in Chromium and get it to run the translater and it didn't work.

view-source:www.doc88.com/p-3993710989438.html and tried to get the raw text and translate it. How do you know what it is saying, do you speak chinese?

 

[NatureHiker]

Cambridge did an overview of cochlear nerve section and it's effect on tinnitus. It was all over the board. Worse, No Difference, Better.

The proportion of patients in whom tinnitus was said to be exacerbated postoperatively ranged from 0% to 60%, with a mean of 16.4% (standard deviation 14.0). The proportion of patients in whom tinnitus was unchanged was 17% to 72% (mean 38.5%, standard deviation 15.6), and in whom tinnitus was said to be improved was 6% to 61% (mean 37.2%, standard deviation 15.2). [\quote]


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12169120