A Sound Imprinted in Your Head?

[Jiri]

Hello everybody,

just had a thought today.

Say, you heard somewhere 11 kHz sine wave for a short period of time and it reminds you of your own tinnitus, then you cup your ears and you hear that exact same sound in your head right away. Like it's now imprinted there (earworm). To cut it real short, couldn't this sound halucination now add to your own tinnitus as a new tone because it may just sound so similar and then you're unable to distinguish whether it's been there before or not?

I'm talking about a brief exposure ofc with low intensity and not months listening to it nonstop like TRT noisers and such. Though, I'm sure you caught yourself singing that one song e.g. a couple of days later... memory thing.

 

[Dana]

To cut it real short, couldn't this sound halucination now add to your own tinnitus as a new tone because it may just sound so similar and then you're unable to distinguish whether it's been there before or not?

A new sound that you remained with after exposure to a sound close in frequency to you tinnitus sound is not a hallucination.
It's real misfiring of neurons in the auditory system, inner ear or acoustic nerve or acoustic cortex, not earworm, which is the unwanted remembering of a sound (or a song), which, when distracted, stops, and, being a memory, sounds exactly as the sound or the song you heard.
A new sound is not hallucination, the same way as tinnitus is not auditory hallucination.
I am inclined to believe that a new sound close to your previous tinnitus frequency irritated an area that you have problems with.
It is impossible to have problems with a very narrow structure (like only the hair cells corresponding to one frequency, or the neurons corresponding with one frequency, but we have problems with a bit larger area, surrounding the location of the dyfuctional haircells, or neurons.
That is my opinion.
The new sounds appears because the sound you were exposed to excited neurons that are dysfuctional, do not shut up after the sound stopped. Has nothing to do with memory.
It is reactive tinnitus, tinnitus that gets worse after exposure to sounds.
I think the sound does not stop because of lack of inhibitory neurotransmitters.

 

[Jiri]

A new sound that you remained with after exposure to a sound close in frequency

Thank you for your opinion.

That's very interesting. It's a good thing that it remained in my head only for a couple of seconds (mins max.) then. I thought it had to do smth with hallucination or earworms.

In any case, if what you're saying was true then we all would probably be walking around with new sounds in our heads/ears almost on a daily basis. Since you cannot avoid being exposed to all kinds of sound frequencies slash noises during the day and week unless you completely shield yourself from the surrounding world (work, streets, tv, music and so on).

Edit: Also, it just crossed my mind that in that case scenario it is a bad idea when an ENT or Audiologist tries to find the frequency and intensity of your tinnitus by doing exactly that - playing different frequencies to you at different intensities straight through your ear cannals via headphones.

 

[Dana]

In any case, if what you're saying was true then we all would probably be walking around with new sounds in our heads/ears almost on a daily basis. Since you cannot avoid being exposed to all kinds of sounds slash noises during the day and week unless you completely shield yourself from the surrounding world (work, streets, tv, music and so on).

Many people have reactive tinnitus and they walk around with new sounds if they are exposed to certain kinds of noises, since we cannot shield ourselves from sirens, alarms, and other insulting sounds.

 

[Jiri]

reactive tinnitus

Well, I still don't know what to imagine under the term "reactive tinnitus". Michael Leigh e.g. describes it as

When a person says they have "reactive tinnitus" in my opinion, they are not aware they have hyperacusis, which is causing their tinnitus to spike when they hear certain sounds.

So I understand it is just your tinnitus spiking after you're being exposed to a loud enough sound.

Otherwise, like I said in my previous comment. If what you're saying is true, then ENTs and Audilogists should not really seek to measure the frequency & intensity of your own tinnitus by playing different frequencies at different intensities to you in that little sound-proof room while you're listenting to all that through a set of headphones.

I mean they're the pros. Imagine how many people would leave the hospital with all kinds of new tones in their heads.

 

[Dana]

Well, I still don't know what to imagine under the term "reactive tinnitus". Michael Leigh e.g. describes it as...

You speak as if you opened a dictionary with tinnitus terms and you looked up "reactive tinnitus". In the quote you gave he says tha this is just his opinion. That is what we all have, (different) opinions.

If what you're saying is true, then ENTs and Audilogists should not really seek to measure the frequency & intensity of your own tinnitus by playing different frequencies at different intensities to you in that little sound-proof room

The audiograms are different frquencies played at very low volume, in general. Starting from zero, they increase slowly the volume, and, as soo as you hear it, they stop it.
If they have to increase the volume above 40 dB, or, say, 70dB, because you have problems on that frequency (you do not hear it at lower intensities), when you start to hear it, at 40 or 70dB, you hear it at a volume, not as a healthy ear would hear it.
I have hearing loss in one year. I never heard something loud during an audiogram.
An ENT told the audiologist to do also the "recruitment" test. That would mean to increase the volume until it is too loud for me. I refused, because of fear. I do not know what the graph of recruitment would reveal. Maybe i will get courageous one day and do it. I was told that it would mean to increase it only for a very very short time. I was still afraid.

I mean they're the pros. Imagine how many people would leave the hospital with all kinds of new tones in their heads.

There isn't such a thing as a "pro" in tinnitus. Some people claim to be, but nobody is. No audiologist, no doctor, no researcher, no quack, the knowledge is very little. So far we only have theories.
People do not leave with new sounds because the volumes are barely above the audible level for the patients.
The moment i hear something, even something very very faint, i push the button, and the volume is not increased anymore.
I will retreat from this conversation. Maybe others have different opinions. I just gave mine, that is all, an opinion.

You had a new sound for just two seconds. Other people get NEW sounds for much longer than that, besides their old sound. The old tinnitus and new frequencies. Given the fact that they are NEW sounds, it cannot be their old tinnitus spiking.

 

[Michael Leigh]

So I understand it is just your tinnitus spiking after you're being exposed to a loud enough sound.

Otherwise, like I said in my previous comment. If what you're saying is true, then ENTs and Audilogists should not really seek to measure the frequency & intensity of your own tinnitus by playing different frequencies at different intensities to you in that little sound-proof room while you're listenting to all that through a set of headphones.

I mean they're the pros. Imagine how many people would leave the hospital with all kinds of new tones in their heads.

@Jiri

If you believe the people you mention as "pros" are indeed that when it comes I do not think so. Granted, they know about the anatomy of the ear and can treat it medically and surgically and I have much respect for their knowledge and expertise in this field. Therefore, I do see them as "pros". However, when it comes to tinnitus and hyperacusis, and understanding how they affect a patient this is an entirely different matter for most (but not all) know very little about these conditions. I agree with everything @Dana said in her post so won't elaborate more on this topic. Please click on the links below and read my posts as you might find them helpful.

I wish you well.
Michael

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/why-is-my-ent-doctor-useless.20047/

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/the-ent-doctor-and-hearing-therapist.24047/

 

[Bassplayer]

Hello everybody,

just had a thought today.

Say, you heard somewhere 11 kHz sine wave for a short period of time and it reminds you of your own tinnitus, then you cup your ears and you hear that exact same sound in your head right away. Like it's now imprinted there (earworm). To cut it real short, couldn't this sound halucination now add to your own tinnitus as a new tone because it may just sound so similar and then you're unable to distinguish whether it's been there before or not?

I'm talking about a brief exposure ofc with low intensity and not months listening to it nonstop like TRT noisers and such. Though, I'm sure you caught yourself singing that one song e.g. a couple of days later... memory thing.

Yes, I believe memory is a big factor. Temporary T seems to occur in most people under certain conditions. If the T sound (or a real sound) becomes associated with being a threat I believe it gets locked into our memory. This probably starts the vicious cycle of the fear of the T causing anxiety making the T worse (locking it in our memory as an even bigger threat).

The vicious cycle starts to break down when we get better at not accessing that 'bad memory'. That's why I keep saying that I don't recommend we should listen for our T when we haven't noticed for a period.

Also we can help break the cycle by learning not to let our emotions attach to it when we do hear it. That helps break the association in memory of the T being a real threat.

The hard bit to deal with is the obsession about it. That's why those on the obsessive spectrum (like me) may struggle more to focus away from the T on to other things. On the other hand we can start obsessing about something constructive to help!

Going back to memory. I have often wondered whether any 'magic cure' for T would involve resetting or zapping parts of our memory. I think that is why ECT has worked in some cases with extreme depression. Depression is also a kind of vicious cycle (another thing I have suffered from). The way out of that loop is the same really.

Personally I'd rather learn to deal with these conditions naturally than have my memory messed about with drugs or shocks! :-/

 

[Jiri]

@Dana I agree. I think it will probably be for the best if you retreat from this conversation.

You speak as if you opened a dictionary with tinnitus terms and you looked up "reactive tinnitus".

What are you talking about? I said I don't know what to imagine under the term "reactive tinnitus" and this person's opinion came to my mind so I quoted it. So how do I speak of the "r. t." as if I opened a dictionary then? That doesn't make sense. Sorry. I sense you're a tad on the offensive side and I don't like that.

The audiograms are different frquencies played at very low volume, in general. Starting from zero, they increase slowly the volume, and, as soo as you hear it, they stop it.
If they have to increase the volume above 40 dB, or, say, 70dB, because you have problems on that frequency (you do not hear it at lower intensities), when you start to hear it, at 40 or 70dB, you hear it at a volume, not as a healthy ear would hear it.
I have hearing loss in one year. I never heard something loud during an audiogram.
An ENT told the audiologist to do also the "recruitment" test. That would mean to increase the volume until it is too loud for me. I refused, because of fear. I do not know what the graph of recruitment would reveal. Maybe i will get courageous one day and do it. I was told that it would mean to increase it only for a very very short time. I was still afraid.

Thanks for explaining it to me. I have had this test done a number of times so I think I have a good idea myself how this works. I'm sorry to hear you struggled with some parts of it.

There isn't such a thing as a "pro" in tinnitus.

First off, I wasn't reffering to ENTs and/or audiologists as being professionals in tinnitus in my post in the first place. Nonetheless, they are professionals in their field of medical specialty. There is just no question about it. Some of them, however, specialize in tinnitus and publish peer reviewed research papers on the topic. In that sense, they are "pros" even in that respect. They have to back up their claims with data and scientifical evidence unlike anecdotal stories and personal viewes/experiences shared on this site in so many instances.

You had a new sound for just two seconds. Other people get NEW sounds for much longer than that, besides their old sound. The old tinnitus and new frequencies. Given the fact that they are NEW sounds, it cannot be their old tinnitus spiking.

Where did I ever state I had it for two seconds? I just played an 11 kHz sine wave to a friend of mine that I thought of sounded close to my own "T", at low volume (had even my muffs on as a matter of fact). It didn't last longer than 30 secs and then for a couple of moments I felt like I could hear it in my head - which raised several questions for me (hence the opening sentence "just had a thought today"). All viz my first post. I have multiple sounds in my head, ears that fluctuate and change occassionaly in tone and pitch. Yet in your reply you speak as it is now given that after being exposed to that one sound I'm now stuck with it. I can't help it but I feel silent pain in your comments.

I wish you good luck on your road to recovery.

I'm over and out. Bye

 

[Jiri]

Yes, I believe memory is a big factor. Temporary T seems to occur in most people under certain conditions. If the T sound (or a real sound) becomes associated with being a threat I believe it gets locked into our memory. This probably starts the vicious cycle of the fear of the T causing anxiety making the T worse (locking it in our memory as an even bigger threat).

Good point.

The vicious cycle starts to break down when we get better at not accessing that 'bad memory'. That's why I keep saying that I don't recommend we should listen for our T when we haven't noticed for a period.

The same thing says my ENT.

Also we can help break the cycle by learning not to let our emotions attach to it when we do hear it. That helps break the association in memory of the T being a real threat.

The hard bit to deal with is the obsession about it. That's why those on the obsessive spectrum (like me) may struggle more to focus away from the T on to other things. On the other hand we can start obsessing about something constructive to help!

I pretty much agree with what you stated here. I also think there's some truth to starting to learn to meditate, breathing exercises etc. to take control of our consciousness. I too am obsessing about it (like a lot of people) + all the fear mongering around 'google tinnitus sites' eventually starts to have at one point or another a negative impact on our subconsciousness and thus the vicious circle that's so hard to break continuous.
For me personally listening to natural sounds helps a lot. Like the "shower masking" sound on here. I don't focus on my T and then when I go to sleep I feel much more relaxed.

Going back to memory. I have often wondered whether any 'magic cure' for T would involve resetting or zapping parts of our memory. I think that is why ECT has worked in some cases with extreme depression. Depression is also a kind of vicious cycle (another thing I have suffered from). The way out of that loop is the same really.

Personally I'd rather learn to deal with these conditions naturally than have my memory messed about with drugs or shocks! :-/

Like rebooting the brain? Isn't that kind of what the UoM - signal timing is trying to do? Personally, if I don't heal naturally I'd rather have that (if it proves efficient & safe) than loading myself with drugs....

Then again, I am no expert and eventually it might be a drug therapy (XEN1101 e.g.) that could be the answer.

 

[Bassplayer]

Good point.

The same thing says my ENT.

I pretty much agree with what you stated here. I also think there's some truth to starting to learn to meditate, breathing exercises etc. to take control of our consciousness. I too am obsessing about it (like a lot of people) + all the fear mongering around 'google tinnitus sites' eventually starts to have at one point or another a negative impact on our subconsciousness and thus the vicious circle that's so hard to break continuous.
For me personally listening to natural sounds helps a lot. Like the "shower masking" sound on here. I don't focus on my T and then when I go to sleep I feel much more relaxed.

Like rebooting the brain? Isn't that kind of what the UoM - signal timing is trying to do? Personally, if I don't heal naturally I'd rather have that (if it proves efficient & safe) than loading myself with drugs....

Then again, I am no expert and eventually it might be a drug therapy (XEN1101 e.g.) that could be the answer.

If it turns out T is a natural stress warning signal in most 'normal' people then blocking that signal might not be such a good idea. It would be like taking away our ability to feel pain.

I believe the brain does turn down the volume once it stops seeing it as a threat, that also seems to go with pain too.

 

[Jiri]

If it turns out T is a natural stress warning signal in most 'normal' people then blocking that signal might not be such a good idea. It would be like taking away our ability to feel pain.

I believe the brain does turn down the volume once it stops seeing it as a threat, that also seems to go with pain too.

Or it's the overactive neurons that eventually die that results in the person's ability to hear silence again. Also, there are many different causes for T (degenerative changes in the c. spine i.e.).

For people with severe T blocking the signal and overriding protocols in the brain again might be the best option. Because of their suffering and pain.

Brain seeing the T as a thread is one out of many theories as to why we hear it at different volumes and it has to do a lot with anxiety which even supports this theory.

I think I'll try now to work on the positive rather than negative and for once listen to the advice of doctors and stop researching about "T" viz. raised levels of anxiety and all we've mentioned now.

 

[Bassplayer]

Or it's the overactive neurons that eventually die that results in the person's ability to hear silence again. Also, there are many different causes for T (degenerative changes in the c. spine i.e.).

For people with severe T blocking the signal and overriding protocols in the brain again might be the best option. Because of their suffering and pain.

Brain seeing the T as a thread is one out of many theories as to why we hear it at different volumes and it has to do a lot with anxiety which even supports this theory.

I think I'll try now to work on the positive rather than negative and for once listen to the advice of doctors and stop researching about "T" viz. raised levels of anxiety and all we've mentioned now.

Well I agree that we need to focus more on the causes rather than the symptom. Tackling it from all sides (psychological and physical) can't do any harm!

Stress certainly doesn't seem to help in all cases though. so reducing stressors in our lives has got to help

 

[Dana]

@Dana I agree. I think it will probably be for the best if you retreat from this conversation.

If you think that it will be for the best if i retreat from conversation, than leave me alone, and do not give four quotes from what i said, commenting them, after you said that i should retreat from the conversation.
You are very rude, @Jiri.
I noticed that from your first reply to what i said.

In any case, if what you're saying was true then we all would probably be walking around with new sounds in our heads/ears almost on a daily basis. Since you cannot avoid being exposed to all kinds of sound frequencies slash noises during the day and week unless you completely shield yourself from the surrounding world (work, streets, tv, music and so on).

Are you being ironic, or it is just my impression? This is just an example, but uncalled for irony is all over the place, of course i got offended.
I won't even bother commenting any further what you said in that post to me. Not worthy of my time.

 

[Jiri]

@Dana Show me exactly where I was being rude to you in my first reply to your comment?? I thanked you for your opinion and then I gave you my own. Is that now considered as being rude?

Also, you were the one to throw a pebble at the other person. Not me. I then only stood my own ground and tried to support whatever I had to say. You got offended for no reason. I even wished you gl on your quest for recovery.

You don't feel like commenting or replying? Ok. That is fine.