Agnostics “R” Us...

[Henry Orlando FL]

I strongly identify myself to your depiction of ''agnostic atheist'', but from a slightly different perspective. I consider myself actually as a ''Cultural Christian'', as we say it over here. My parents actually raised me & my siblings in an ecumenic christian philosophy (with emphasis on Catholicism, however), as my father is a Roman-Catholic and my mother a Dutch Reformed Protestant. They aren't hardcore christians in that we're all obliged to go to church on a Sunday or that that we have to belief in a benign being that created this world 6000-10.000 years ago, but they felt that the teachings of the bible (and especially the power or narrative) allows each and everyone of us to develop a moral compass; a set of values and a view on life that are formed by learning about key figures &''historic'' events in the bible, such as how people developed character during hardship, what values are considered more noble than others in the pursuit to live a virtuous life (cardinal virtues, e.g. love thy neighbour), what justice exactly entails, and so on. For my parents, christian philosophy has more to do about teaching values than a belief in a all known being that intervenes in our lives. For them, Christianity offers via easily understood narratives more structure in developing a moral compass, than any other philosophy (such as atheism, that is considered by many as an ''empty shell'').

As I grew up with the teachings of christianity, I believed then as I belief now that some christian values stood the test of time and are applicable even today (humbleness, devotion to community, stewardship for living creatures and planet) , but some badly need to be ''updated''. Both the Roman-Catholic and Reformed Protestant outlook on homosexuality, gender roles and social justice (often limited to christian groups, but less to ''non-christian'') has made me leave the church all together a few years ago, but I am still tied to some values that are considered ''Christian''. So, in a certain way, I consider myself a ''cultural christian'', which I mix with political values (soft left socialism & liberalism) and zen buddhism (which has more to due with creating a calm approach towards the unrestful aspects of life).

I was raised old school prior to Vatican II Catholic. Back then the Catholic Church asserted they were the one true Church and one could not get to heaven unless one was Catholic. Took me a couple of decades to get over that indoctrination! Here is the USA we have the Unitarian Universalist Church that has no creed with the majority of the membership is atheist or agnostic. Some theists and some who would call themselves Christian Humanists which are like what you are describing. No crosses in the church though. I see they are also in the Netherlands. They do have principles that sound like what you believe. Here is the link: https://www.nuuf.nl/our-principles I used to attend the Unitarian Universalist Church but stopped decades ago. I do consider myself a "secular Buddhist" follow Stephen Batchelor's work see here: https://www.stephenbatchelor.org/. So I think I have an idea where you are coming from.

 

[Jazzer]

I strongly identify myself to your depiction of ''agnostic atheist'', but from a slightly different perspective. I consider myself actually as a ''Cultural Christian'', as we say it over here. My parents actually raised me & my siblings in an ecumenic christian philosophy (with emphasis on Catholicism, however), as my father is a Roman-Catholic and my mother a Dutch Reformed Protestant. They aren't hardcore christians in that we're all obliged to go to church on a Sunday or that that we have to belief in a benign being that created this world 6000-10.000 years ago, but they felt that the teachings of the bible (and especially the power or narrative) allows each and everyone of us to develop a moral compass; a set of values and a view on life that are formed by learning about key figures &''historic'' events in the bible, such as how people developed character during hardship, what values are considered more noble than others in the pursuit to live a virtuous life (cardinal virtues, e.g. love thy neighbour), what justice exactly entails, and so on. For my parents, christian philosophy has more to do about teaching values than a belief in an all knowing being that intervenes in our lives. For them, Christianity offers via easily understood narratives more structure in developing a moral compass, than any other philosophy (such as atheism, that is considered by many as an ''empty shell'').

As I grew up with the teachings of christianity, I believed then as I belief now that some christian values stood the test of time and are applicable even today (humbleness, devotion to community, stewardship for living creatures and planet) , but some badly need to be ''updated''. Both the Roman-Catholic and Reformed Protestant outlook on homosexuality, gender roles and social justice (often limited to christian groups, but less to ''non-christian'') has made me leave the church all together a few years ago, but I am still tied to some values that are considered ''Christian''. So, in a certain way, I consider myself a ''cultural christian'', which I mix with political values (soft left socialism & liberalism) and zen buddhism (which has more to due with creating a calm approach towards the unrestful aspects of life).

Good points Christian.

Where I disagree with the church is on its vehement objection to voluntary euthanasia, contraception, and abortion on unwanted pregnancies, (women's choice).

I also believe that if religion is being taught in schools, then so should a secular, philosophical, option be offered as an alternative.
Otherwise we all grow up subject to indoctrination, which I strongly disapprove of.

 

[Jazzer]

. I do consider myself a "secular Buddhist"

Me too Henry.

 

[Christiaan]

Thanks for your post @Christiaan -- very interesting.

Richard Dawkins also identifies himself as a Cultural Christian (I sound like his biggest fan now, but I'm genuinely not).

It's funny because I can understand how someone could believe in God(s), but I've never really understood how someone could believe in the Bible, or that Christianity teaches morality. I just don't see that goodness in the Bible -- to me, it's very amoral in a lot of places, with a lot of murder, rape and general mistreatment at the hands of the Bible's version of God.

Perhaps this is because people don't tend to read the Bible independently, but hear it preached in a church where some of the nicer messages are cherry picked?

I do very much like Jesus, for instance. I can see how he might be used to teach about morality.

Yeah, Christianity contains many inconsistencies, especially Roman Catholicism. Let's take the history of Constantine the Great for example. Constantine the Great is regarded in Roman Catholic Church as a saint, as he played a major part increasing the influence and credibility of christianity (first Roman emperor to convert to christianity and signed edict of Milan in 313 to declare tolerance christianity in Roman empire). In the time he became interested in Christianity, he also waged an offensive campaign towards neighboring tribes in order to expand his empire, so he really took Jezus' words of humbleness and kindness towards others (even though written & propagated by his disciples) to hart. He officially converted to christianity on his deathbed, which was also a convenient way to relieve him of his many sins (many killings) during his time as an emperor (it is said that Constantine put off baptism as long as he did so as to be absolved from as much of his sin as possible)

It's indeed a big problem that a lot of people do not study the bible critically or just take the Priest's / Reverend's words for it. The evangelical support for Trump is just one thing that makes my skin crawl. Luckily , many christian schools in the Netherlands teach bible studies. It's a way to critically discuss the events, values and in general morality of christianity, and it helps people like me to discern what may be right and what may be wrong.

I'm actually wondering how atheist parents raise their children according to a non-theist philosophy. What is the starting point to explain to kids about the world, about morals, values? What kind of 101 books are essential to gain an understanding of life and the world in general? @Tanni, do you know how the cookie crumbles?

 

[Christiaan]

I was raised old school prior to Vatican II Catholic. Back then the Catholic Church asserted they were the one true Church and one could not get to heaven unless one was Catholic. Took me a couple of decades to get over that indoctrination! Here is the USA we have the Unitarian Universalist Church that has no creed with the majority of the membership is atheist or agnostic. Some theists and some who would call themselves Christian Humanists which are like what you are describing. No crosses in the church though. I see they are also in the Netherlands. They do have principles that sound like what you believe. Here is the link: https://www.nuuf.nl/our-principles I used to attend the Unitarian Universalist Church but stopped decades ago. I do consider myself a "secular Buddhist" follow Stephen Batchelor's work see here: https://www.stephenbatchelor.org/. So I think I have an idea where you are coming from.

Interesting development you went through @Henry Orlando FL. Luckily I never heard from my priest or reverend that Catholicism/ Protestantism is the one and only true religion. I live in a country where the biggest Christian party (CDA) consists of both catholics and protestants, as they understand they get much more done together than separately. What was for you the turning point when it came to Roman Catholicism? And what makes buddhism an ''asset'' to your life?

Yes, I have heard of the UUC. I actually never reconsidered going back to church. I have a difficulty getting up early on a Sunday morning Just joking. I just want to live my life more independently, to be free from any form of any ideological institutionalized authority, and I feel happy doing so. I already spend a big part of my life pleasing others & trying to live up to other people's expectations , now I want just more ''me-time''

 

[Christiaan]

Good points Christian.

Where I disagree with the church is on its vehement objection to voluntary euthanasia, contraception, and abortion on unwanted pregnancies, (women's choice).

I also believe that if religion is being taught in schools, then so should a secular, philosophical, option be offered as an alternative.
Otherwise we all grow up subject to indoctrination, which I strongly disapprove of.

Ey @Jazzer. You and me both buddy. In a general sense, the Church should let go of some of it's outdated principles and focus more on questions concerning the matter of how to live a ''decent and (spiritually) fulfilling life, free from suffering and harm'', and not on ''how to live life in the service of God''. In the latter case, there's less consideration for autonomy and individual thought of what we could consider of what life is and how it should be lived if we restrict ourselves to the orthodox teachings of the Church.

I assume that in GB, schools also have room for philosophy and bible studies? We have the option to choose both if you end up in a christian high school on havo/vwo level (prepares pupils for higher professional education (HBO) and university ). On these type of schools, they often offer bible studies, which offer room for other (non) religions to help interpret what life is and how we ought to live.

 

[Tanni]

Yeah, Christianity contains many inconsistencies, especially Roman Catholicism. Let's take the history of Constantine the Great for example. Constantine the Great is regarded in Roman Catholic Church as a saint, as he played a major part increasing the influence and credibility of christianity (first Roman emperor to convert to christianity and signed edict of Milan in 313 to declare tolerance christianity in Roman empire). In the time he became interested in Christianity, he also waged an offensive campaign towards neighboring tribes in order to expand his empire, so he really took Jezus' words of humbleness and kindness towards others (even though written & propagated by his disciples) to hart. He officially converted to christianity on his deathbed, which was also a convenient way to relieve him of his many sins (many killings) during his time as an emperor (it is said that Constantine put off baptism as long as he did so as to be absolved from as much of his sin as possible)

Yes, I know of Constantine and his importance to Christianity. Didn't he convert because of a dream? If it had not been for that dream, Christianity might still have been a small, pagan religion, instead of the powerhouse it is today. Fascinating to think about.

I don't think people can really study the Bible critically because in all honesty it's a pretty out of date document, and I struggle to see how you could apply it to modern life except in the most abstract way possible. In fact, it seems to me that a lot of the time religion follows modern society in terms of morality (like the new Pope decreeing that condoms are no longer a sin etc), rather than modern society looking to religion for morality.

I was raised in an atheist household in a country that's very non-religious on average, and I can attest that it's not difficult to raise a child to know right and wrong without the Bible. I guess the key is to teach empathy, but even that to a certain extent probably comes naturally with time as empathy is an essential survival tool in society. Regardless, religion does not have the monopoly on good.

@Tanni, do you know how the cookie crumbles?

Haha, we may have a bit of a language barrier here, unless I'm just not understanding? This expression means that something disappointing has happened that we can't do anything about. What did you mean by it in this context?

 

[FGG]

I guess the key is to teach empathy, but even that to a certain extent probably comes naturally with time as empathy is an essential survival tool in society. Regardless, religion does not have the monopoly on good

Whether you have religion in life your life or not, I think this is key. Empathy is the most important value we can instill and yet it's often overlooked.

Teaching a child to be good to others otherwise God might punish you is not the same as teaching them to be good because it's the right thing to do.

 

[just1morething]

Where I disagree with the church is on its vehement objection to voluntary euthanasia, contraception, and abortion on unwanted pregnancies, (women's choice).

I have a hard time understanding why declawing a cat is illegal in the UK yet abortion is legal? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Tanni]

I assume that in GB, schools also have room for philosophy and bible studies?

Hope you both won't mind me answering this.

We don't learn philosophy in school unfortunately. But you can elect to learn it in college as an A level (17 - 18 year old students).

All 11-14 year old students study a subject called Religious Education, which teaches about all the world's religions -- it doesn't specifically focus on Christianity. I was taught RE by a Christian for one year, and a Buddhist for the remaining years.

We would not teach Bible studies in a comprehensive (ie state) school, only a religious school.

The UK is not a very religious country on average, like perhaps it is in the Netherlands? To compare to America, I believe a Presidential candidate who isn't a Christian would struggle to get elected, whereas in the UK one of our Prime Ministers had to wait until his term was over before 'coming out' as Catholic. It would have hindered his chances of being elected Prime Minister if the public had known he was religious.

 

[Mister Muso]

The bottom line on how you classify folks is being an Atheist is basically about what one believes. Being an Agnostic is about what one knows. Thus the difference is based on knowledge (Agnostic) versus belief (Atheist).

This is probably the most succinct account of the difference between Agnostics and Atheists that I have read. Thank you.

And yet, fickle humans that we are, we will often behave "as if" something is true (or isn't true), even if we are not sure that it is (or isn't). Ask David Hume. So a great many people who would describe themselves as Agnostics (because they see the logical possibility that either side may be true) actually behave as if they are Atheists. Then again, some believers sometimes behave as if they are atheists too. (This believer included. Sometimes.)

So am I right in saying that Richard Dawkins is now saying he thinks he behaves as if he is a Christian?

Why are we humans so difficult to put into boxes?

 

[Zugzug]

To me, the difference between agnostic and atheist has a lot to do with how confident you become, when push comes to shove. When I knew I was an atheist was when I started dealing with severe adversity and never felt comforted by a god.

It's not so much that I am brazenly sure there is no god as much as I am sure that there are enough religious hypocrites and enough moral atheists to conclude that a benevolent god would not damn someone to hell for having the brain that needs evidence to believe.

Struggling to believe something without evidence is really not that horrific of a character trait. The god portrayed in most religions is manipulative and narcissistic. If a god existed and thought it was so important to leave the fate of eternity not up to total randomness, it would present evidence.

I used to be a professor. I would be kind to students who were highly disrespectful to me. If I can (easily) do this, I'm pretty sure a god can not damn me to hell for struggling to believe in it. All while giving me severe chronic illness and disabilities in my 20s.

I will say that it's common for people who have seen some shit to become religious. I respect this, even though it's not for me. What I don't respect is the idea that if you never become religious, the only explanation is that you've never seen some serious shit.

 

[FGG]

I have a hard time understanding why declawing a cat is illegal in the UK yet abortion is legal? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Even taking a "abortion is always morally wrong" approach to this:

Any country with a coastline where abortion is illegal can provide abortions in international waters off the coast (as occured in Ireland and the Philippines). Not to mention, black market medical abortions.

Illegal abortion only reduces safe abortion.

To reduce abortion, a pragmatic approach is needed included very comprehensive sex education and universal access to contraception and to plan B. Plan B works by stopping an egg from implanting which is what naturally happens to about 30% of eggs anyway (so God is obviously okay with that since that's how human fertility is designed).

Even as a vet who abhors declaw, this applies there too. There are very immune compromised pet owners (eg organ transplant patients) who can not risk scratches that could harbor Bartonella. And unfortunately I have also seen photos from a colleague of a botched home declaw.

How i have dramatically reduced declaws (I very rarely did them, maybe twice a year) is by counseling owners what declaw entailed (amputation of the tip of the digit, not just the nail) and that declawed cats tend to be biters more often and have more arthritis later (as well as often have more difficulty using the litter box with the arthritis as they age) and by showing them how to trim or offering alternatives like Soft Paws.

 

[Henry Orlando FL]

Interesting development you went through @Henry Orlando FL. Luckily I never heard from my priest or reverend that Catholicism/ Protestantism is the one and only true religion. I live in a country where the biggest Christian party (CDA) consists of both catholics and protestants, as they understand they get much more done together than separately. What was for you the turning point when it came to Roman Catholicism? And what makes buddhism an ''asset'' to your life?

Yes, I have heard of the UUC. I actually never reconsidered going back to church. I have difficulty getting up early on a Sunday morning Just joking. I just want to live my life more independently, to be free from any form of any ideological institutionalized authority, and I feel happy doing so. I already spend a big part of my life pleasing others & trying to live up to other people's expectations, now I want just more ''me-time''

Good questions.

The turning point for me was reaching the age of being able to achieve abstract reasoning. The beginning of the capacity for abstract reasoning occurs for most people beginning at age eleven or so according to the work of Jean Piaget who was a prominent developmental psychologist of the 20th century. His model is widely accepted in the field of developmental psychology.

Once one begins to "think critically" then that opens up a host of issues including religious issues. Of course, different people have different abilities when it comes to abstract thinking that is probably set genetically and then what type of environment one is raised in makes a huge difference if that capacity is maximized.

I was raised by two college-educated parents to value education, think critically and read. My mother (she was a Catholic) asked me why none of her 3 children remained practicing Catholics. I told her it is hard to be a Catholic if one was raised to value education, think critically and read. It is hard to remain a theist if one looks into the validity of the Bible and the literature in the Philosophy of Religion.

That said, the early "brainwashing" that occurs when one is a child (before the age of abstract reasoning) affects the emotional part of the brain so there are feelings attached to what you were taught. Also cognitive distortions all humans are prone to factor in to keep one stuck in the current mode of thinking. If you want to look at a list of common cognitive distortions, go here: https://psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-cognitive-distortions/. Thus, it took me two to three decades… well into my thirties to get over leaving the Catholic Church and get to agnosticism.

If you are into Zen, you probably already know of the benefits of meditation. You also likely know that there are many different "denominations" if you will with Buddhism. The best place to get a good brief overview of Secular Buddhism is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Buddhism for those with interest. My readings, mostly with Stephen Batchelor, helped me get a handle on what practices were useful or not from Buddhism in reducing suffering for me and others as well as what thoughts and beliefs (Buddhist psychology and philosophy) led to less suffering for me and others. Finally, in trying to determine what was the best Buddhist tradition to follow for me, Stephen Batchelor's work helped me see the pitfalls a Westerner in particular encounters when looking at committing to any Buddhist tradition.

As you may know, some Western Buddhists do not consider Secular Buddhists as being Buddhist at all. Some esteemed Buddhist scholars argue that indeed Secular Buddhism is not Buddhism. Why? Mostly because as a secular Buddhist one often does not believe all of the primary doctrines. One certainly does not believe in many of the things most Buddhists believe in. In addition, one does not commonly engage in rituals of the traditions (particularly Tibetan tradition rituals). Most critically to the Buddhist scholars, Secular Buddhists do not believe in (or at least are agnostic about) reincarnation.

Secular Buddhists do not have a "tradition" since it is really just forming up in the West with Stephen Batchelor probably the foremost scholar and advocate of this approach. Secular Buddhism indeed is totally devoid of ideological institutionalized authority since it is being "invented" now in the West. A "creature" if you will of Buddhism moving into the West. Buddhism always went through major changes as it moved into new countries/cultures and it is now happening with it moving into the West in a big way.

Hope this hits the spot for you.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I used to be a professor. I would be kind to students who were highly disrespectful to me.

Wasn't this the result of you taking into account the negative consequences for your career of not being kind to the students who were highly disrespectful to you?

If it was your choice, wouldn't you agree that your choice increased the chance that more people who don't deserve to be disrespected will get disrespected in the future?

 

[Bill Bauer]

I have a hard time understanding why declawing a cat is illegal in the UK yet abortion is legal?

A cat is conscious. A fetus is equivalent to a tumor - a clump of cells that isn't aware.

Caring about what happens to a fetus is the same as worrying about all of the sperm that die unless they find an egg (which, of course, is most of them), or a woman having her period (the egg is allowed to die without being fertilized) - insanity.

You are welcome.

 

[Zugzug]

Wasn't this the result of you taking into account the negative consequences for your career of not being kind to the students who were highly disrespectful to you?

In some ways, the university model is catering to the student, so yes, there is incentive for personal gain. But not always. I won't go into specifics on here, but there were times when I helped students and it certainly did not advance my career or improve my evaluations.

If it was your choice, wouldn't you agree that your choice increased the chance that more people who don't deserve to be disrespected will get disrespected in the future?

Mixed feelings on this. In some cases, I agree with you. Other times I take the mindset that young adults grow out of being disrespectful by later realizing that someone was being kind to them.

By the way, in case it was unclear, the original point was not to compare me to a god. I brought up that example specifically to highlight that even I (a person with average amounts of morality and selfishness) sometimes want to help people that don't believe in me. I can't imagine damning someone to hell over the same thing.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Other times I take the mindset that young adults grow out of being disrespectful by later realizing that someone was being kind to them.

In my experience (and also based on the experiences of my friends and family), the person is more likely to learn that being aggressive and disrespectful works and has no negative consequences, and become a lot more aggressive/disrespectful when dealing with me and with others.

I brought up that example specifically to highlight that even I (a person with average amounts of morality and selfishness) sometimes want to help people that don't believe in me. I can't imagine damning someone to hell over the same thing.

It's an interesting analogy, that hasn't occurred to me before. There are certainly many things that people do that I disapprove of that wouldn't discourage me from being nice to them.

 

[Contrast]

A fetus is equivalent to a tumor - a clump of cells that isn't aware.

For most cases I am for a woman's right to choose, but unfortunately if single cell life can display incredible intelligence. I am forced to conclude that a fetus is aware. Cells are the most complex structures in reality that we know of.

They should at least use anesthetics before performing abortions.

 

[just1morething]

A cat is conscious. A fetus is equivalent to a tumor - a clump of cells that isn't aware.

Not a very good analogy IMO. Our cats were declawed years ago and I recently came across an article on how cruel it was. I actually thought it was like removing a fingernail instead of severing the last digit of its paw. Now every time I look at our Maine Coon stray we took in I think about it even though it was done nearly seven years ago.

Our vet has had her cats declawed I thought she told me recently though. The stray Coon was attacking our other cat without claws so I thought it had to be done at the time. And we did take it in before winter set in. Who knows if the stray would have survived the winter? It was a drop off as it was neutered and easily tamed. I thought it was a wild barn cat at first though as it appeared scared and was really thin when I first encountered it.

@Bill Bauer, read this link then:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/25/gop-hails-trump-moves-abortion-rnc-402022

 

[Bill Bauer]

They should at least use anesthetics before performing abortions.

Sounds reasonable.

I am forced to conclude that a fetus is aware.

Everything is on a spectrum. How complex is this awareness compared to that of a cat or a 3-year old human?

 

[Bill Bauer]

single cell life can display incredible intelligence. I am forced to conclude that a fetus is aware.

Does the above apply to human cells that end up dying as a result of surgeries, and to malignant and benign tumors?

Would you say that a fetus is as aware as tumors and skin and other tissue that ends up being collateral damage during surgeries?

 

[Contrast]

Does the above apply to human cells that end up dying as a result of surgeries, and to malignant and benign tumors?

Would you say that a fetus is as aware as tumors and skin and other tissue that ends up being collateral damage during surgeries?

First of all. We don't know what awareness is. Awareness could be everywhere in the Universe but without a brain (or similar structure) it can't form memories. Without memories it would be potential/proto-awareness. I am suggesting a fetus has true awareness because it's already developed past the embryo faze and has nervous and brain cells. It if has nociceptor neurons it probably feels pain.

Back in 2005 there was a ton of controversy of scientist insisting fish feel pain because they have nociceptors and the only ones whining were the fisherman.

 

[Bill Bauer]

We don't know what awareness is.

We don't - but we can define what the type of awareness that it makes sense to care about. Yes, it is the case that plant and animal cells might experience discomfort, but this is unavoidable and most of us don't care about it. I happen to love animals, but you have got to draw a line somewhere.

Without memories it would be potential/proto-awareness.

A good example of awareness that it makes sense (to me) to not care about.

ack in 2005 there was a ton of controversy of scientist insisting fish feel pain

I hope we can agree that a fetus is less aware of the world around it than a fish. I think fish Are aware, and I do what I can to avoid hurting one. I quit fishing when I realized that I wouldn't enjoy reeling in a mammal. I think a fetus is less aware than an insect, and I don't really mind hurting an insect. Of course you would never want to hurt even an insect for no reason. But a major impact on one's life seems to be a big enough of a reason.

 

[Jazzer]

I have a hard time understanding why declawing a cat is illegal in the UK yet abortion is legal? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Declawing a cat is not illegal.
Whoever told you that?

 

[Bill Bauer]

Now every time I look at our Maine Coon stray we took in I think about it even though it was done nearly seven years ago.

Please don't be too hard on yourself. You have been providing a home to the cat for seven years. On balance you have done an overwhelmingly more positive things for the cat than the negative things that you did.

The stray Coon was attacking our other cat without claws so I thought it had to be done at the time.

It sounds like you even had a really good reason to do it - you were trying to protect your other cat.

@Bill Bauer, read this link then:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/25/gop-hails-trump-moves-abortion-rnc-402022

Back in 1990s I used to listen to Rush Limbaugh. I quit when I realized that he would defend the Republicans even when they did the things that he had been opposing several months prior.

I certainly don't support the anti-abortion part of the Republican platform. (Not that it matters, as I am not an American citizen.) Luckily I don't think one needs to worry about abortion being outlawed any time soon. Unfortunately, there are a number of other literally "life vs. death" issues out there to worry about.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Declawing a cat is not illegal.
Whoever told you that?

I misread @just1morething's post. I thought he said "euthanizing a cat", as opposed to saying "declawing a cat".

 

[Contrast]

We don't - but we can define what the type of awareness that it makes sense to care about. Yes, it is the case that plant and animal cells might experience discomfort, but this is unavoidable and most of us don't care about it. I happen to love animals, but you have got to draw a line somewhere.

A good example of awareness that it makes sense (to me) to not care about.

I hope we can agree that a fetus is less aware of the world around it than a fish. I think fish Are aware, and I do what I can to avoid hurting one. I quit fishing when I realized that I wouldn't enjoy reeling in a mammal. I think a fetus is less aware than an insect, and I don't really mind hurting an insect. Of course you would never want to hurt even an insect for no reason. But a major impact on one's life seems to be a big enough of a reason.

We need to determine what has nociceptors and what doesn't. A fetus is almost certainly more conscious then an insect.

The bottom line is psychologist of the 20th century spent a century insisting that consciousness didn't exist and now science is 100 years behind. Some but not all neuroscientist refuse to converse with physicist and other disciplines relating to unicellular biology about it. They use the word "woo" and "new age" to prevent any serious inquiry on the science of consciousness.

 

[FGG]

First of all. We don't know what awareness is. Awareness could be everywhere in the Universe but without a brain (or similar structure) it can't form memories. Without memories it would be potential/proto-awareness. I am suggesting a fetus has true awareness because it's already developed past the embryo faze and has nervous and brain cells. It if has nociceptor neurons it probably feels pain.

Back in 2005 there was a ton of controversy of scientist insisting fish feel pain because they have nociceptors and the only ones whining were the fisherman.

Yep. They 100% used to say that fish didn't feel pain despite having the same pain pathways. Now fish surgeons (they exist) give Morphine injections post op because people know better.

I find myself halfway agreeing between you and @Bill Bauer. We don't know what point "true full awareness" starts but we know it's definitely not before 21 days or identical twins would each have "half an individual awareness".

I support the pro choice position for many reasons but agree with the Roe vs Wade inclusion that 3rd trimester abortions should be limited to when the life/health of the mother or fetal viability (or future quality of life) is poor. Premature babies can feel so that makes sense to me. And absolutely anesthetic should be used (this is another argument for abortion to always be legal because you absolutely don't want short cuts taken on this outside of hospitals).

 

[Contrast]

I'm done talking here. Abortion is a sensitive topic and it can offend people on both sides extremely easy.