Audion Therapeutics Trial

#331
FGG said:
Reading FX-322's patent, it's clear there are some concerns with at least Novartis' method and it seems Audion, too:

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1="frequency+therapeutics"&OS="frequency+therapeutics"&RS="frequency+therapeutics"

The screenshot is of the most relevant part.

Overall, FX-322 seems to produce the same cell phenotype without depleting support cells. I'm a bit worried if the "hair cell like cells" produced by Audion by transducing support cells will function as well.

It's possible though that even a subpar signal (because who knows how relevant those differences clinically are) generated by these cells may help a lot with T but their trial is focusing on hearing loss and I don't think they will be nearly as strong as Frequency personally.
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I still think the method that Audion Therapeutics is doing trying to restore hearing loss is better than nothing.

It's good how there are different companies trying to restore hearing loss and using different methods to achieve this.
 
#334
Anybody follow their website or the trial site? Is April 30th still on?

Any reason to think the report is going to be delayed due to COVID-19?
 
#335
grate_biff said:
Anybody follow their website or the trial site? Is April 30th still on?

Any reason to think the report is going to be delayed due to COVID-19?
Click to expand...
I think there will be a delay but if they finish the trials by December last year surely they would have had plenty of time to review the results.

I just hope the results come out soon and they mention about the Phase 3 trials.
 
#336
Lucifer said:
I still think the method that Audion Therapeutics is doing trying to restore hearing loss is better than nothing.

It's good how there are different companies trying to restore hearing loss and using different methods to achieve this.
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I think @FGG was pointing this out because those of us with severe hearing distortions and/or widespread support cell loss have to be a bit more cautious and selective when it comes to treatment.

I don't have support cell loss but my distortions are strange, esoteric, and debilitating enough that I will not want to try audion when Frequency's method feels like a safer approach for my etiology. Someone who is worried about their support cells would feel similar I believe.

Because you kind of only get one shot unless the hair cells get damaged again. If Audion's method results in subpar hair cell morphology - which there is current research to suggest it might (however we will don't know for sure since Audion has not definitely confirmed their hair cells look exactly as they should in a native cochlea the same way Pipeline has) - then that's it, that's what you're living with now.

For those who have minimal hearing damage and subsequent tinnitus, I agree with FGG that even a non-standard signal could be enough. Hell, cochlear implants can achieve tinnitus reduction/elimination using electrical stimulus alone as a stand in for a hair cell.

But for me personally, I'm not taking any chances. I just can't afford to at this point. And others need to be aware of the very potential shortcomings of Audion's method in relation to their own hearing problems.
 
#337
HootOwl said:
I think @FGG was pointing this out because those of us with severe hearing distortions and/or widespread support cell loss have to be a bit more cautious and selective when it comes to treatment.

I don't have support cell loss but my distortions are strange, esoteric, and debilitating enough that I will not want to try audion when Frequency's method feels like a safer approach for my etiology. Someone who is worried about their support cells would feel similar I believe.

Because you kind of only get one shot unless the hair cells get damaged again. If Audion's method results in subpar hair cell morphology - which there is current research to suggest it might (however we will don't know for sure since Audion has not definitely confirmed their hair cells look exactly as they should in a native cochlea the same way Pipeline has) - then that's it, that's what you're living with now.

For those who have minimal hearing damage and subsequent tinnitus, I agree with FGG that even a non-standard signal could be enough. Hell, cochlear implants can achieve tinnitus reduction/elimination using electrical stimulus alone as a stand in for a hair cell.

But for me personally, I'm not taking any chances. I just can't afford to at this point. And others need to be aware of the very potential shortcomings of Audion's method in relation to their own hearing problems.
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Yea I understand. I was saying that cause if some people are very desperate to get cured and they can't wait then they are most likely going to try whatever hearing loss drug comes out first.

I just don't want people to kill themselves like @Allan1967 that's why I said that it's better that Audion Therapeutics are trying to do something to cure hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus rather than doing nothing even though Audion method depletes supporting cells. If a drug comes out first and is successful people who are desperate are going to try that first.

I hope you understand why I said that.
 
#339
Lucifer said:
Yea I understand. I was saying that cause if some people are very desperate to get cured and they can't wait then they are most likely going to try whatever hearing loss drug comes out first.

I just don't want people to kill themselves like @Allan1967 that's why I said that it's better that Audion Therapeutics are trying to do something to cure hearing loss, hyperacusis and tinnitus rather than doing nothing even though Audion method depletes supporting cells. If a drug comes out first and is successful people who are desperate are going to try that first.

I hope you understand why I said that.
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Oh, I totally get where you're coming from.

I am also extremely suicidal. As so many on this forum are well aware, it's a horrible balancing act between wanting relief as quickly as possible and waiting for a more fine tailored treatment. In this case the risk-reward setup is even more unforgiving because once the hair cell regenerates - via either method - it stays in that form until further injury.

I was trying to emphasize that in some cases (myself included) if we act out of desperation we might end up screwing ourselves over. Believe me, I know how hard it is to wait but if a year of suffering means the difference between subpar hearing repair and optimal hearing then I will do it. Even if I have to claw my way through every horrible damn day.

But you're right that different people will come down on different sides of this balancing act depending on the severity of their suicidal ideation, and nothing would make me happier than to discover that those with reactive tinnitus/dysacusis had the Audion injections and came out better than ever, and that all my misgivings were misplaced.
 
#340
Mr.tdog15 said:
How do you know if you have lost support cells?
Can that be due to medication cause if it is I'm screwed lol
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A lot of ototoxins do damage support cells. There is no test for it. As long as your SC aren't totally depleted, FX-322 should still work but I would be more hesitant (personally) with Audion.

Even if you had no support cells left, Chen at Harvard believes he can regenerate support cells from flat cuboidal epithelium (essentially what you would have left with complete destruction of them) but his treatments are probably a decade away from being available.
 
#341
HootOwl said:
Oh, I totally get where you're coming from.

I am also extremely suicidal. As so many on this forum are well aware, it's a horrible balancing act between wanting relief as quickly as possible and waiting for a more fine tailored treatment. In this case the risk-reward setup is even more unforgiving because once the hair cell regenerates - via either method - it stays in that form until further injury.

I was trying to emphasize that in some cases (myself included) if we act out of desperation we might end up screwing ourselves over. Believe me, I know how hard it is to wait but if a year of suffering means the difference between subpar hearing repair and optimal hearing then I will do it. Even if I have to claw my way through every horrible damn day.

But you're right that different people will come down on different sides of this balancing act depending on the severity of their suicidal ideation, and nothing would make me happier than to discover that those with reactive tinnitus/dysacusis had the Audion injections and came out better than ever, and that all my misgivings were misplaced.
Click to expand...
For me the most important question about Audion is not whether to pursue their treatment once it is available, but if tinnitus is reduced or eliminated when hearing is restored using their method. This would give an indication on what to expect from FX-322 in this respect. I'm lucky to have mild/moderate tinnitus and mild hearing loss so I can wait for FX-322, or try to sign up for phase 3 of Frequency trial if they run it in Europe.
 
#342
Mentos said:
For me the most important question about Audion is not whether to pursue their treatment once it is available, but if tinnitus is reduced or eliminated when hearing is restored using their method. This would give an indication on what to expect from FX-322 in this respect. I'm lucky to have mild/moderate tinnitus and mild hearing loss so I can wait for FX-322, or try to sign up for phase 3 of Frequency trial if they run it in Europe.
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This is not a good metric imo.

It's quite possible that Audion could fail for tinnitus and Frequency could succeed based on the fact that Audion's method produces a "hair cell like" cell retrofitted from a support cell and Frequency uses a support cell to divide and produce a phenotypic hair cell.

No one (yet) knows how similar or different a "hair cell like" cell (Audion) is from a hair cell. We will know more very soon, though based on how good Audion's hearing results are.
 
#343
Mentos said:
For me the most important question about Audion is not whether to pursue their treatment once it is available, but if tinnitus is reduced or eliminated when hearing is restored using their method. This would give an indication on what to expect from FX-322 in this respect. I'm lucky to have mild/moderate tinnitus and mild hearing loss so I can wait for FX-322, or try to sign up for phase 3 of Frequency trial if they run it in Europe.
Click to expand...
Same with me as well. If Audion Therapeutics works and comes out first I may consider taking it depending on how much of a delay it takes for FX-322 to be released.

I could always take Audion Therapeutics first and then later on take FX-322.
 
#344
FGG said:
This is not a good metric imo.

It's quite possible that Audion could fail for tinnitus and Frequency could succeed based on the fact that Audion's method produces a "hair cell like" cell retrofitted from a support cell and Frequency uses a support cell to divide and produce a phenotypic hair cell.

No one (yet) knows how similar or different a "hair cell like" cell (Audion) is from a hair cell. We will know more very soon, though based on how good Audion's hearing results are.
Click to expand...
True, my point was that if Audion reports improvement of tinnitus then chances that FX-322 will improve it even to bigger extent are high, while even if Audion does not improve tinnitus FX-322 may still be by far better in it.
 
#345
Lucifer said:
Same with me as well. If Audion Therapeutics works and comes out first I may consider taking it depending on how much of a delay it takes for FX-322 to be released.

I could always take Audion Therapeutics first and then later on take FX-322.
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I'm not sure FX-322 would work after Audion. You can't regenerate the same hair cell twice. That was @HootOwl's point I believe. If Audion produces a subpar cell, that's what you are stuck with.
 
#346
Lucifer said:
Same with me as well. If Audion Therapeutics works and comes out first I may consider taking it depending on how much of a delay it takes for FX-322 to be released.

I could always take Audion Therapeutics first and then later on take FX-322.
Click to expand...
Is that possible?
 
#349
Lucifer said:
I think there will be a delay but if they finish the trials by December last year surely they would have had plenty of time to review the results.

I just hope the results come out soon and they mention about the Phase 3 trials.
Click to expand...

This has me a little concerned. Why would it take so much time? And if the results are due tomorrow, where will they be posted? And if there's a delay, why aren't they saying there will be a delay? It looks like Audion's website hasn't been updated in ages (http://www.audiontherapeutics.com/).

Looking at the tea leaves on this one, my guess is that the results aren't so good. I poked around today on LinkedIn, and Audion still only lists 3 employees, and 1 of those is an investor. Co-founder Helmuth van Es's activity is public, and he's mainly been posting and liking stuff about Covid-19. There's been no activity related to hearing loss in the past 2 weeks.

Both co-founders also run other companies, and it looks like Helmuth has been more active with his other company.

If Audion had good results to show, I feel like these guys would be more active in staffing up Audion and hyping up their drug, but it seems like a ghost town. I could be wrong and maybe there will be a surprise tomorrow, but it doesn't seem like that will be the case.
 
#350
patorjk said:
This has me a little concerned. Why would it take so much time? And if the results are due tomorrow, where will they be posted? And if there's a delay, why aren't they saying there will be a delay? It looks like Audion's website hasn't been updated in ages (http://www.audiontherapeutics.com/).

Looking at the tea leaves on this one, my guess is that the results aren't so good. I poked around today on LinkedIn, and Audion still only lists 3 employees, and 1 of those is an investor. Co-founder Helmuth van Es's activity is public, and he's mainly been posting and liking stuff about Covid-19. There's been no activity related to hearing loss in the past 2 weeks.

Both co-founders also run other companies, and it looks like Helmuth has been more active with his other company.

If Audion had good results to show, I feel like these guys would be more active in staffing up Audion and hyping up their drug, but it seems like a ghost town. I could be wrong and maybe there will be a surprise tomorrow, but it doesn't seem like that will be the case.
Click to expand...

Their own CEO had been downplaying their drug in an interview not too long ago, too, saying They hadn't had their "eureka moment" yet.

Their method in general makes me nervous. I wish they weren't the ones coming out first because I feel really good about Frequency in comparison (phase 1 results, lots of enthusiasm, hiring, creating hair cells instead of hair cell like cells, etc).
 
#351
patorjk said:
This has me a little concerned. Why would it take so much time? And if the results are due tomorrow, where will they be posted? And if there's a delay, why aren't they saying there will be a delay? It looks like Audion's website hasn't been updated in ages (http://www.audiontherapeutics.com/).

Looking at the tea leaves on this one, my guess is that the results aren't so good. I poked around today on LinkedIn, and Audion still only lists 3 employees, and 1 of those is an investor. Co-founder Helmuth van Es's activity is public, and he's mainly been posting and liking stuff about Covid-19. There's been no activity related to hearing loss in the past 2 weeks.

Both co-founders also run other companies, and it looks like Helmuth has been more active with his other company.

If Audion had good results to show, I feel like these guys would be more active in staffing up Audion and hyping up their drug, but it seems like a ghost town. I could be wrong and maybe there will be a surprise tomorrow, but it doesn't seem like that will be the case.
Click to expand...
Your probably right anyways. Why have Frequency Therapeutics been so vocal about FX-322 and hyping it up on Twitter and events and we see none of that with Audion Therapeutics.

I really hope Audion Therapeutics aren't scammers and lying about their drug working but they should have been really active throughout the trials talking about it on Twitter and at events.
 
#355
xyz said:
At least they don't raise any expectations which later can't be met.
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I will give them credit there. Since they are not publically traded, they could have been pretty wild with expectations without the same kimd of legal ramifications.
 
#356
FGG said:
I will give them credit there. Since they are not publically traded, they could have been pretty wild with expectations without the same kimd of legal ramifications.
Click to expand...
If they are not publicly traded like Frequency Therapeutics could that have been a reason why they did not hype it on Twitter and events like Frequency Therapeutics did.

Audion Therapeutics did get some type of funding from the European Commission Horizon Grant 2020.
 
#357
Lucifer said:
Why have Frequency Therapeutics been so vocal about FX-322 and hyping it up on Twitter and events and we see none of that with Audion Therapeutics.
Click to expand...
Maybe because they are afraid of Audion beating them to it? And because they need to attract investors where Audion is paid for by EU (tax) euros?

Just a thought...
 
#358
If one of you guys want to contact the CEO of Audion Therapeutics about when Phase 2 results will be released through text or call, here is his number. This was posted on the news page on their website:

Audion Therapeutics
Rolf Jan Rutten
CEO
+31646767255
 
#360
I still can't believe they haven't released the phase 2 clinical trial results. I would have expected after the trials ended in December they would have had plenty of time to go through the results.

I wonder what Audion Therapeutics are doing during the lockdown.
 

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