Can a Sound You Don't Hear Anymore Hurt Your Other Good Hair Cells?

[Gosia]

Sorry to be such a crybaby, but I'm just paralised since yesterday that I've done sth stupid and there is no way I can find an answer on the net. Dr Nagler doesn't seem to be answering either. So I must have a hearing loss, maybe total , above 11khz. I did a test on youtube yesterday using my tablet for this ( without headphones or earbuds) . They play tones starting from 125 hz up to 13000hz. Up to 700 I kept the recording very low cause the sound recorded seemd very loud . From 8khz on it seemed silent and from 10000 I could hardly hear anything so I turned the volume to the maximum and put the tablet to my ear to check if I really didn't hear a thing. I didn't. For me it was total silence. Just that right after I realised that the tablet played the thing as loud as it did in the beginning, so probably very loud ( I have no way of measuring how loud it was ) , only I didn't hear it, but could any part of my ear feel influenced by this ? Have I done sth stupid ? Can a sound I cannot hear hurt my ears? I don't know how much sound my tablet can emit but if I read an ipod can play up to 115 (!) ? maybe so does my tablet. HEre is the recording :

 

[Atlantis]

It shouldn't because there are no hear cells working for you in that frequency. Why are you worried? Your tinnitus didn't spike? Don't worry.

 

[snow86]

A tablet-speaker is not a reliable speaker for a hearing test.
It doesn't have the same frequency range that a professional speaker/headphones has.
You probably didn't hear anything because the speaker is not good enough. Stop obesssing over such things please, you can't change your hearing ability either way (I dont mean hearing aids )
If you really want to know your hearing range then go to an audiologist.

 

[Gosia]

@snow86 , I know it's not reliabe. I've already had 4 real ones at the ENT s. I didn't listen to it to check my hearing loss but to mach my t frequency. It' s just the loudness of the recording that worries me. I must have thought that if I don't hear it, for my ear it was silence, but then panicked in doubts cause I know the recording is very loud. And i put it against my ears..a normaly hearing person would run away because of the loudness. I feel so stupid.
if I didn't hve an instant spike i can really calm down? The problem with my T is that it's not stable and it often changes just by itself so I never know if sth gave me a spike or not unless it's really right after, but I guess I'm freaking out because I read that so many people had spikes only after some days.And also because I ,ve just managed to raise a bit from misery and the idea that I could pull my self back in any progress of my T getting better is just killing me..

 

[Xorthian]

@Gosia
It doesnt help when someone says to me "calm down" without giving me scientific background for that so let me help you with rationalizing this fear as I would personally do if I was in your position and afraid of same thing.

Lets assume if you cant hear sound frequency it can still damage your hearing - as a worst case scenario.
So you did this test for how maybe 5 minutes. Permisible sound levels are:
http://www.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=...d=0CCEQMygCMAJqFQoTCO7dteyKisYCFSOncgodQykAzQ

106db is damaging after 4 minutes of unprotected hearing it.

According to some musician violin near ear produces 110-115db
http://www.maestronet.com/forum/ind...-violin-enough-to-cause-tinnitushearing-loss/

I highly doubt your tablet can get as loud on max speaker settings even when close to ear - it probably was close to 95db max and not more. I would feel very safe in your case if you did it only for such short time and not beat myself further with guilt and fear.

I wouldnt however recommend using 2 ipads attached to your head near ears on maximum settings as a some sort of elaborate and innovative sound/music system

 

[dboy]

I don't think it is a good idea to put any speaker to your ears and I think in theory a sound that you cannot hear probably could cause further damage if it was loud enough. However, I don't think the speaker in a tablet is likely to be powerful enough to really cause damage unless you held it there for quite a while (if at all). I think the odds are massively in favour of this not having caused you any harm - other than perhaps the psychological harm of panicking.

I see the gist of this has been covered much more effectively now while I was writing, but thought I'd post anyway to back that up.

 

[Gosia]

Thank you so much guys..It was only one minute actually cause up to 7000 my hearing is perfect so I kept the volume very low and far from ears. It's only later then I turned up the volume and maybe 10 sec really close to my ears.
@Xorthian , exaclty. I wouldn't worry if I had a scientific proof saying if you're deaf at higher frequencies tyhen listening to high frequency only can't damage the ability of hearing which is still untouched. I really hope the tablet speakers are not powerful enough but then again I read that ipads can play up to 115 db :/ ? Some sites say 105 , some even 120 ..If it's 120 at the concert, I can understand , but how do they measure it in case of such small devices and how does it compare for the ear?

 

[Xorthian]

Thank you so much guys..It was only one minute actually cause up to 7000 my hearing is perfect so I kept the volume very low and far from ears. It's only later then I turned up the volume and maybe 10 sec really close to my ears.
@Xorthian , exaclty. I wouldn't worry if I had a scientific proof saying if you're deaf at higher frequencies tyhen listening to high frequency only can't damage the ability of hearing which is still untouched. I really hope the tablet speakers are not powerful enough but then again I read that ipads can play up to 115 db :/ ? Some sites say 105 , some even 120 ..If it's 120 at the concert, I can understand , but how do they measure it in case of such small devices and how does it compare for the ear?

One minute couldnt possibbly do long lasting damage that would be significant even it it was 110db and it really couldnt be. Keep in mind that those sites mean 115db if you put earplugs that come with iphones or other gear like beats and put them on max volume and ipad on max volume. but we are talking about earplugs directly in your canal, not something near ear.

You have very similiar anxieties to mine when I let them take over my mind and life

 

[Gosia]

Yep, I think they write about sound through earbuds but is the difference so big between earbuds and a speaker right next to your ear..? My anxiety is amplified by the fact that in last 3 months I read a 100 times how delicate the hearing is, especially when already damaged and so on and so forth. But there 's no way of measuring it accesible in every day life..What about people getting T because they had speakers on their head when some noise appered only for a few secs? Also, this recording seems particularly loud. For comparison I played a video clip on volume max ( not close to me this time of course..) and it sounded much more silent. And the last thing why I worry - since the beginning of T my obsession was at least not to let it get worse ( knowing that I may as well be copletely helpless about it ) and I'm still hoping it will go away ..so I'm avoiding many noises. I often chose to walk instead of taking public transport, I don't even talk over the phone anymore ( only skype ) or very brief info exchanging.and here I am silly goose.I popped 2 pills of NAC though...even if that's another thing the action of which I can't absolutely be sure about.
That's true that it takes over most of my life..I mean I was better until yesterday and I got paralised again and I literally can't live my life. ( also because it's quite empty. Most of the time it's just me and T..)

 

[dboy]

Being in a state of high stress is probably more dangerous to you than the minor sound exposure you described. If you want to keep your hearing safe then I think it is important to work on being more relaxed and accepting that perfectly safe isn't really possible, but reasonably safe is OK. Me saying these things does not make it easy (sorry), but I hope it is worth saying anyway.

I'm a bit stressed at the moment with a spike but then I just spent a couple of minutes blowing raspberries on my son's belly while he wailed with delight right into my lughole. In hindsight that was a bit daft, and I won't do it again for a bit, but at the time that was what happened. The best I can do about it now is not to get stressed or beat myself up for living in the moment. If I let myself get stressed then I think there is actually more chance of my ears responding badly to what happened.

I hope this doesn't come across as smug. After my t went from mild to intrusive in August 2013 I spent weeks in fight-or-flight mode, so I really do know how hard that is to switch off. I think being in that state probably contributed to establishing the volume increase as permanent... I was stressed before it happened and then went kind of over the edge with panic. Attempting to fight/suppress those feelings doesn't really work for me, but I wish with hindsight I had practised distraction more and done things to actively promote relaxation/mental wellbeing.

I hope this is of some help.

 

[Gosia]

Thank you @dboy. I know that stressing is not a good solution but sometimes it's just stronger than us..I'm not such a difficult case - all I need is the hope of getting better or a slight improvement. Since the begining of T I fell a few times and I raised from the ashes a few times as well. It will finally be agian like this - what choice do I have ? When it started I was very low, like we all, but the slightest imrpovement got me back on my legs. Still miserable, but in a 'fighter, not giving up mode'. Pride prevailing. But When I had a small setback once or twice for no clear reason I was back to the misery. And then back to getting on with life again. Just that yesterday I fell again..paralised by the fear of making sth worse + sense of guilt that I was so stupid..I'm slowly raising, mostly thanks to your answers. I'm a rational and analitic type, I like to know how things work and I like scientific proofs. I guess what I would need now is to measure the sound of my blasted tablet at it max volume playing the video I posted with a very reliable device. I wish there was a place available to public where we could just go and check this kind of things.
Here is an interesting source of info. They say mp3 can get max 103 db. But elsewhere I read 130. They also claim that headphones are not any safer than earbuds.

 

[Michael2013]

Can a sound I cannot hear hurt my ears?

No, you will be just fine. The way my doctors explained it to me was that the hair cells inside the cochlea are damaged when they are overly stimulated. When the hairs detect sounds, they vibrate and 'dance' and then send the electrical signal to the brain. If they are not dancing, they are not being stimulated or damaged. That's the current (simplified) medical thinking anyway.

http://auditoryneuroscience.com/ear/dancing_hair_cell

 

[Danny Boy]

Sorry to be such a crybaby, but I'm just paralised since yesterday that I've done sth stupid and there is no way I can find an answer on the net. Dr Nagler doesn't seem to be answering either. So I must have a hearing loss, maybe total , above 11khz. I did a test on youtube yesterday using my tablet for this ( without headphones or earbuds) . They play tones starting from 125 hz up to 13000hz. Up to 700 I kept the recording very low cause the sound recorded seemd very loud . From 8khz on it seemed silent and from 10000 I could hardly hear anything so I turned the volume to the maximum and put the tablet to my ear to check if I really didn't hear a thing. I didn't. For me it was total silence. Just that right after I realised that the tablet played the thing as loud as it did in the beginning, so probably very loud ( I have no way of measuring how loud it was ) , only I didn't hear it, but could any part of my ear feel influenced by this ? Have I done sth stupid ? Can a sound I cannot hear hurt my ears? I don't know how much sound my tablet can emit but if I read an ipod can play up to 115 (!) ? maybe so does my tablet. HEre is the recording :

I wouldn't use that. http://www.generalfuzz.net/acrn/ Can help lower your tinnitus and help with masking. Good luck.

 

[Nucleo]

It's very unlikely. If you don't hear anything then no hair cell has been moving (or too few of them) and not generating electric signals that your brain understands. This means that none of the excitoxicity cascade of events that happens after acoustic trauma happened.

Still I wouldn't recommend listening to high volumes of high frequency sounds though, since you are still transferring energy in the cochlea nevertheless.

 

[Gosia]

@Nucleo, You've just put in words what worries me actually. If it's anyhow harmful for cohlea..and what can be the result of such energy transferring ..ehh

 

[dan]

@Nucleo, You've just put in words what worries me actually. If it's anyhow harmful for cohlea..and what can be the result of such energy transferring ..ehh

If your T didnt spike within an hour and you dont have any ear pain - STOP WORRyiNG!!!!!!!! because nothing has happened!

 

[Gosia]

Ok, I promise I will try..well, no particular spike, no. It keeps jumping and changing like usual..my T is weird. If it was always the same and stable I could detect spikes and reactions easier.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Sorry to be such a crybaby, but I'm just paralised since yesterday that I've done sth stupid and there is no way I can find an answer on the net. Dr Nagler doesn't seem to be answering either.

On a slightly unrelated matter, when you ask a question on the Doctors' Corner, how long do think it's reasonable to wait before you conclude that "Dr Nagler doesn't seem to be answering either."

 

[Gosia]

On a slightly unrelated matter, when you ask a question on the Doctors' Corner, how long do think it's reasonable to wait before you conclude that "Dr Nagler doesn't seem to be answering either."

When I wrote in Doctor's Corner yesterday I saw you online and participating to other threads . Sure I don't know how many questions per hour you get. It wasn't a reproach, I just stated the fact. I was freaking out and I needed any support pretty much asap which I got here and for which I kindly thank to all the members who wrote sth. I would thank you too for your reply today in the Doctor's Corner but it says 'I don't have enough privilage ' to write anything more there, so..thank you.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

When I wrote in Doctor's Corner yesterday I saw you online and participating to other threads . Sure I don't know how many questions per hour you get. It wasn't a reproach, I just stated the fact.

I understand. My problem is that this is a hobby, not a job, so I sort of have to prioritize. And sometimes I just don't pick up on people's urgency as I quickly skim over posts. I apologize if you felt ignored. It was certainly not my intention.

I would thank you too for your reply today in the Doctor's Corner

You are most welcome.

but it says 'I don't have enough privilage ' to write anything more there, so..

Yea, nobody has that privilege. It's designed that way so the Doctors' Corner doesn't become a discussion forum.

 

[Gosia]

Ah, ok No, it's me who apologises for mentioning you in my first post. If you have any more particular informatiopn about the loudness of devices such as tablet..I'd be greatful.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

No, it's me who apologises for mentioning you in my first post.

Not a problem.

If you have any more particular informatiopn about the loudness of devices such as tablet..I'd be greatful.

I really have no information on that particular topic other than what you can readily find on a google search for the specs on whichever device you want to know about. Sorry.

 

[bwspot]

No, you will be just fine. The way my doctors explained it to me was that the hair cells inside the cochlea are damaged when they are overly stimulated. When the hairs detect sounds, they vibrate and 'dance' and then send the electrical signal to the brain. If they are not dancing, they are not being stimulated or damaged. That's the current (simplified) medical thinking anyway.

http://auditoryneuroscience.com/ear/dancing_hair_cell

What if the dancing cell is already at the point of the exhaustion?
Imagine a stick that you try to bend. It wont brake until you reach its limits.
It can either brake when you apply too much pressure just once or over time.

What if the hair cells lets say at 7000hz are overused and exhausted. Logically I would think they need rest to heal. They need silence and less stimulation.

Now you try to listen to the signal generator that generates 0-22000kz frequencies and when it reaches 7000hz the cells responsible for these frequencies give up and fall down and you go from 0db hearing loss at 7000hz to 20db loss.

That's how I see it. So in my opinion testing the ears can do some damage even at low or middle levels.
I wish i could prove it but I don't want to expose myself to loud sound to test it.

I personally can feel pain or little discomfort when i listen to sounds covering my hearing loss frequencies.
It is not the tinnitus that causes me the pain but the stimulation of the broken or exhausted cells.
It is weird but I can perceive it. Maybe it is a phantom feel but it is there.
@Dr. Nagler disaggress with that thinking (see my question in dr's corner) but I can feel it and it only happens during the cell stimulation via sound.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Dr. Nagler disaggress with that thinking (see my question in dr's corner) but I can feel it and it only happens during the cell stimulation via sound.

That is really an unfair characterization of my position. I neither agreed nor disagreed with your thinking. What I said is that tinnitus does not cause pain - and if you have pain along with your tinnitus, then you should undergo an ENT evaluation to determine the cause of the pain.

 

[Michael2013]

What if the dancing cell is already at the point of the exhaustion?
Imagine a stick that you try to bend. It wont brake until you reach its limits.
It can either brake when you apply too much pressure just once or over time.

What if the hair cells lets say at 7000hz are overused and exhausted. Logically I would think they need rest to heal. They need silence and less stimulation.

The OP, Gosia, wanted to know if damage could occur on good hair cells by listening to sounds that she could not hear. My understanding is that each hair cell is designed to only be stimulated by frequencies specific to that particular hair. So hearing a loud sound at a higher frequency should have little or no effect on the lower ones. Having said that, I'm not quite sure I followed your post. It almost seems to me that you might have some damaged hair cells and exposing yourself to frequencies those damaged hair cells are meant to be stimulated by is causing you pain? Seems to be a different situation from Gosia was asking.

-Mike

 

[Quentino]

@Gosia , you should in fact go see an ENT and do an hearing test. Because all the things you've done mean that you are stressed and afraid about your hearing, but you fear to have the audiogram in front of you ( tell me if i'm wrong but i was in this state of mind at the beginning).

And whatever how is your hearing, the biggest problem is being stressed and/or depressed. You should accept more your situation.

 

[bwspot]

That is really an unfair characterization of my position. I neither agreed nor disagreed with your thinking. What I said is that tinnitus does not cause pain - and if you have pain along with your tinnitus, then you should undergo an ENT evaluation to determine the cause of the pain.

I did not mean to put you on spot. I guess I misinterpreted your answer. What I wanted to know if aggravating the dying or overused cells can cause pain sensation. I have seen many posts where people describe having some pain although the ears seem to be ok.

 

[bwspot]

The OP, Gosia, wanted to know if damage could occur on good hair cells by listening to sounds that she could not hear. My understanding is that each hair cell is designed to only be stimulated by frequencies specific to that particular hair. So hearing a loud sound at a higher frequency should have little or no effect on the lower ones. Having said that, I'm not quite sure I followed your post. It almost seems to me that you might have some damaged hair cells and exposing yourself to frequencies those damaged hair cells are meant to be stimulated by is causing you pain? Seems to be a different situation from Gosia was asking.

-Mike

How do we know in what condition the good cell is? What if audiogram shows perfect hearing but the cell is on the edge of the exhaustion? Then maybe little unnecessary stimulation might cause damage? I believe that frequency generated tones are different then natural sounds and might cause unnecessary damage.
In real life we don't hear 16000hz tones on its own. We hear tiny pieces of it together with the whole spectrum.
Yes, the brain might be processing 1 time slot at a time, but we perceive it as a whole.
I am just speculating here and have no science to back it up. Just an idea.
Yes, I do have impression that when i listen to very good quality music that covers wide spectrum i feel like my ear is hurting when i cannot hear some of the frequencies where i do have a hearing loss. I don't attempt to listen at higher volumes. I just listen at low volumes, but i can feel slight difference when I compare to the good ear.
The good ear does not hurt at all.

 

[Gosia]

Finally sth happened. .since the evening some new thkng appeared in tbe right ear: like a thousand of tiny bells , not regular. It's very silent but very annoying and I don't sleep again. I just pray it's gone by the morning. Could it be a 'spike' around 30 h past my 'accident'? I also had my cell phone ring right next to my right ear yesterday. The moment I was getting better it changed into worse again. Now you understand why i'm freaking out - by experience. .

 

[Michael2013]

How do we know in what condition the good cell is? What if audiogram shows perfect hearing but the cell is on the edge of the exhaustion? Then maybe little unnecessary stimulation might cause damage?

Thats possible I suppose... But not by frequencies that would never stimulate it in the first place.

But of course nobody can say too much with absolute certainty when it comes to the inner ear. Still much to learn.