Chickenpox and Tinnitus ...

[Dr. Nagler]

I have a question for you to ponder.

Chickenpox is, of course, a disease. And whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have chickenpox - if you have chickenpox, then you have chickenpox.

Chickenpox causes a rash. A rash is a physical finding. And whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have a rash - if you have a rash, then you have a rash.

The rash itches. Itching is a symptom. We know that whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have chickenpox - if you have chickenpox, then you have chickenpox. And we know that whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have rash - if you have a rash, then you have a rash.

But how about the itch, the symptom? If you are not consciously aware of the fact that you are itching, do you have an itch?

And what does that say about tinnitus?

Just something to think about.

sp

 

[Amelia]

I had to read that twice ... (It's been a long day!)

But awesome post

 

[Micky]

Here's something else to think about whilst we are are having a silly half hour..
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Here's something else to think about whilst we are are having a silly half hour..
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Well, it's not such a silly half-hour to me. In fact, to me it really goes to the heart of suffering!

If a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around to hear it, there absolutely is no sound. There is a sound wave. But unless that sound wave reaches a cochlea (where it gets converted into an electrochemical signal by the hair cells) ... and unless that electrochemical signal makes its way up the auditory nerve to the subcortical auditory pathways in the brain ... and unless the signal travels along those pathways and ultimately arrives at the auditory cortex, which is the part of the brain responsible for the conscious perception of sound, then there is no sound. There are sound waves, but there is no sound.

And as far as tinnitus goes, you have to be aware of it in order to have it. Just like the itch of chickenpox, during the times you - for whatever reason - happen not to be consciously aware of your tinnitus, while you may still have all the subconscious neuronal activity associated with you tinnitus ... you do not have tinnitus!

As I see it, anyway.

sp

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Playing mind games is not my forté.

But here is what I do know about chickenpox. The chickenpox virus, like all herpes class vira, stays dormant in the body after initial infection (usually in childhood). And as with all herpes vira, later outbreaks may occur. In the case of chickenpox, a subsequent outbreak goes under the name "shingles" or "herpes zoster" and does not resemble the initial infection. Herpes zoster can occur anywhere on the upper body, but most commonly outbreaks will occur on the torso. In rare cases, an outbreak may occur which affects the nerves of the inner ear and is known as herpes zoster oticus. It is serious. One of several complications with this type of outbreak is tinnitus. Very early symptoms of HP Oticus before the rash itself appears, is an unusual tingling of the nose. If this is noticed, immediate consultation with an ENT is indicated (for a prescription of anti-virals eg. Zostex).

Whether or not an itch is only an itch when it is noticed, I don't know. What I do know, is that the itch caused by Herpes Zoster is - like severe tinnitus - an "itch" which cannot be ignored. And since it cannot be ignored, it is always "there" (no need to search for it). Anyone who has had shingles will undoubtedly agree.

 

[JTP]

Speaking of sound waves and auditory pathways, isn't it incredible how efficiently living creatures convert soundwaves into frequency perception? In engineering perspective this is a Fourier transform that demands some heavy computing. And even insects do that. Obviously we have a little fault in the mechanism, but I would not hold my breath waiting for science to figure it out.

 

[bwspot]

I have a question for you to ponder.

Chickenpox is, of course, a disease. And whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have chickenpox - if you have chickenpox, then you have chickenpox.

Chickenpox causes a rash. A rash is a physical finding. And whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have a rash - if you have a rash, then you have a rash.

The rash itches. Itching is a symptom. We know that whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have chickenpox - if you have chickenpox, then you have chickenpox. And we know that whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have rash - if you have a rash, then you have a rash.

But how about the itch, the symptom? If you are not consciously aware of the fact that you are itching, do you have an itch?

And what does that say about tinnitus?

Just something to think about.

sp

But is not the fact that we know the chickenpox will go away enough to be able to live with it for a short time?
With T it is not so easy as we dont know anything. We just hope.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

We just hope.

We can hope. Or we can do.

If it's the cure of tomorrow you're talking about, we can hope. If it's the achievement of meaningful lasting relief while waiting for that cure of tomorrow, we can do.

Dr. Stephen Nagler

 

[RichL]

It's the same as brainwashing, some people are susceptible to it, for some it takes a little longer and for the very intelligent and strong willed, they just can't be brain washed at all.

Rich

 

[Dr. Nagler]

It's the same as brainwashing, some people are susceptible to it, for some it takes a little longer and for the very intelligent and strong willed, they just can't be brain washed at all.

I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent. And if it's "brainwashing" that gave me meaningful lasting relief from tinnitus, then I'm good with that.

Dr. Stephen Nagler

 

[RichL]

I consider myself to be reasonably intelligent. And if it's "brainwashing" that gave me meaningful lasting relief from tinnitus, then I'm good with that.

Dr. Stephen Nagler

Your a doctor, so I would say that line of work would require quite a fare degree of intelligence!
Perhaps that may have been the wrong description for me to use, never the mind, the original meaning still stands!

Rich

 

[cullenbohannon]

Hey rich maybe its just me but i didnt quite get what your getting at. Smarter people dont get brain washed into not caring about T? What exactly was the meaning you meant to convey?

Your a doctor, so I would say that line of work would require quite a fare degree of intelligence!
Perhaps that may have been the wrong description for me to use, never the mind, the original meaning still stands!

Rich

 

[Kathi]

Hi Rich,

Are you saying that intelligent and strong willed people can't habituate? I'm not sure I get your meaning.

It's the same as brainwashing, some people are susceptible to it, for some it takes a little longer and for the very intelligent and strong willed, they just can't be brain washed at all.

Rich

 

[RichL]

Hey rich maybe its just me but i didnt quite get what your getting at. Smarter people dont get brain washed into not caring about T? What exactly was the meaning you meant to convey?

Probably should have said stronger willed people, like I said I should not have used the word intelligent but IMO I think a fare bit of TRT is brainwashing and stronger willed people just don't get brain washed!

Hi Rich,

Are you saying that intelligent and strong willed people can't habituate? I'm not sure I get your meaning.

No, nothing to do with habituation, remember habituation is just a fancy way of saying (getting used to it).

Rich

 

[Kathi]

I guess I always have the 'itch' so I know I know the rash is there. I'm always consciously aware of my tinnitus so I do have it. It doesn't distress me like it did at first but it is still something I cope with every day. My tinnitus cycles so I think that makes it hard to lose one's awareness of it. I continue to live my life as if I didn't have T but some days I know that I'm just faking it, trying to make it.

I have a question for you to ponder.

Chickenpox is, of course, a disease. And whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have chickenpox - if you have chickenpox, then you have chickenpox.

Chickenpox causes a rash. A rash is a physical finding. And whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have a rash - if you have a rash, then you have a rash.

The rash itches. Itching is a symptom. We know that whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have chickenpox - if you have chickenpox, then you have chickenpox. And we know that whether or not you are consciously aware of the fact that you have rash - if you have a rash, then you have a rash.

But how about the itch, the symptom? If you are not consciously aware of the fact that you are itching, do you have an itch?

And what does that say about tinnitus?

Just something to think about.

sp

 

[Kathi]

Probably should have said stronger willed people, like I said I should not have used the word intelligent but IMO I think a fare bit of TRT is brainwashing and stronger willed people just don't get brain washed!



No, nothing to do with habituation, remember habituation is just a fancy way of saying (getting used to it).

Rich

Yes, but TRT is to facilitate habituation of reaction--'getting used to it--and intelligent people have habituated through TRT and/or CBT.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

TRT is brainwashing and stronger willed people just don't get brain washed!

Intetesting. I went through five years of surgical residency. 80-100 hour workweeks up every third night all night on call. You just do not do that without being strong-willed.

This isn't a question of being strong-willed or not. It's not a question of being intelligent or not. It's a question of being willing to admit the possibility that there is another way to go about solving a problem than the way that makes most sense to you. And acting on it.

Dr. Stephen Nagler

 

[RichL]

How many times do I have to apologize for using the word intelligence and taking it back? would you all leave it out of the conversation please!

 

[russiancarl]

I gotta disagree with the rash -> itch metaphor. I know it's not the same as chicken pox but I'm a lifelong eczema sufferer and let me tell you, even when you don't think you're itchy you actually are. You don't need to see or feel the rash to feel it. But, I would liken it some to tinnitus in that you can definitely put it out of your mind and control it.

It's an odd sensation actually. I've only felt completely itch free once in my entire life and I kind of freaked out because the feeling was so foreign. It was following a course of oral steroids that did wonders for my skin. Kind of funny that I blame my current tinnitus issues with more steroids I took to control my skin.

I do think that in time tinnitus can become like that itching to me... a background part of life. I think my ringing has actually been getting better recently and it is really freaking me out. More because this happened before and came back with a vengeance. The fear is strong.

 

[bwspot]

Yes, but TRT is to facilitate habituation of reaction--'getting used to it--and intelligent people have habituated through TRT and/or CBT.

Hmm, I personally though that habituation is more then just getting used to it.
More like reprogramming your brain so in the long run the T is ignored naturally.
Lets say at some point your brain creates T sound for unknown reason and then one reprograms the brain so it is a normal sound. Wound not that be more then getting used to it? For me it is pretty damn smart!!!

 

[Kathi]

Okay--sorry, I'll leave it out but I also wanted to point out that TRT is not brainwashing, it is one of the ways to habituate one's reaction--get used to it. In your post to me you said :
"No, nothing to do with habituation, remember habituation is just a fancy way of saying (getting used to it)."

How many times do I have to apologize for using the word intelligence and taking it back? would you all leave it out of the conversation please!

 

[cullenbohannon]

I havent used TRT but i don't think you need to buy into every aspect of it to habituate using it.

As far as it being like a rash i can see that. @bwspot for me so far habituation has been that its there but i don't listen to it. It has little to no meaning in my life, its like a fan or ac running in the back round an im able do everything else i need to and the noise kind of fades. At the end of the day i think about how long i actually paid attention to my T and cant remember hearing it. If that makes sense.

@Kathi Agreed like i said you don't have to buy into every aspect of the trt model to use it successfully imo.

 

[Kathi]

I learned that TR facilitates the habituation to one's reaction and that can be followed by an habituation of perception and the T noise is no longer on the awareness level. That second part doesn't always happen but people do get to where the noise does not bother them and that is considered habituation too. Others get to a point where they don't hear the T unless they listen for it. Either is a retraining of the brain and limbic system. I'm no expert though--just going by what I learned. Personally, I used CBT and anxiety management to get this far...I have a ways to go.

Hmm, I personally though that habituation is more then just getting used to it.
More like reprogramming your brain so in the long run the T is ignored naturally.
Lets say at some point your brain creates T sound for unknown reason and then one reprograms the brain so it is a normal sound. Wound not that be more then getting used to it? For me it is pretty damn smart!!!

 

[RichL]

Intetesting. I went through five years of surgical residency. 80-100 hour workweeks up every third night all night on call. You just do not do that without being strong-willed.

This isn't a question of being strong-willed or not. It's not a question of being intelligent or not. It's a question of being willing to admit the possibility that there is another way to go about solving a problem than the way that makes most sense to you. And acting on it.

Dr. Stephen Nagler

I appreciate what your saying but anything psychological, to do with the mind, is a form of brainwashing how ever you want to look at it or say it!

Okay--sorry, I'll leave it out but I also wanted to point out that TRT is not brainwashing, it is one of the ways to habituate one's reaction--get used to it. In your post to me you said :

So what your saying is "it's one of the ways to get used to ones reaction"????

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense, you don't get used to ones reaction, you get used to the T, it is still there and always will be, yes you can change the way you react to it but that is all, you can't make it go away with TRT or any therapy for that matter!
Like I said anything that changes a psychological pathway is a form of brainwashing!
IMHO

Rich

 

[nogood]

Interesting well depends on what you focusing or aware of though.
If you are not aware of something it will not make sense to you.
I work in multicultural environment when people talk in other languages I don't give a dame what they are talking, to the point I don't even let listen to single word they talk unless my name comes up in the conversation.
Its not the same when people talk in english I very keenly listen what they talk about, weather in office or train or in bus.

Initial stages of my T I was blaming the fan for the noise. Up until I spoke to a doctor regarding something else the word T came up and I had go Google abt it and I became more aware of it.

 

[RichL]

Interesting well depends on what you focusing or aware of though.
If you are not aware of something it will not make sense to you.
I work in multicultural environment when people talk in other languages I don't give a dame what they are talking, to the point I don't even let listen to single word they talk unless my name comes up in the conversation.
Its not the same when people talk in english I very keenly listen what they talk about, weather in office or train or in bus.

Initial stages of my T I was blaming the fan for the noise. Up until I spoke to a doctor regarding something else the word T came up and I had go Google abt it and I became more aware of it.

But you still heard the noise!

 

[nogood]

I was ignoring it up until I did not know what it was.. Trying to brush off thinking its only the fan .. Thinking why the hell is that fan making so much noise. After I was aware things went crazy.

But you still heard the noise!

 

[russiancarl]

I appreciate what your saying but anything psychological, to do with the mind, is a form of brainwashing how ever you want to look at it or say it!


Rich

I don't understand this. Your mind is always changing. When you have a new idea is that brainwashing? When someone convinces you that hey, you should believe X instead of Y is that brainwashing? Just curious where you draw the line.

For me, I was skeptical of TRT too. I didn't get a whole lot out of the direct counseling session and kind of thought my mind would refuse to allow it to work... kind of like if you know the placebo is a placebo kind of thing. But, I was wrong.

I went along with the program and well it appears your mind can't resist rewiring itself even if you don't think it will. I don't consider it brainwashing at all. It's just the way the human body works.

 

[Kathi]

I appreciate what your saying but anything psychological, to do with the mind, is a form of brainwashing how ever you want to look at it or say it!



So what your saying is "it's one of the ways to get used to ones reaction"????

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense, you don't get used to ones reaction, you get used to the T, it is still there and always will be, "yes you can change the way you react to it but that is all, you can't make it go away with TRT or any therapy for that matter!
Like I said anything that changes a psychological pathway is a form of brainwashing!
IMHO

Rich

No, one doesn't 'get used to one's reaction' . You change your reaction to T. It no longer distresses you. It no longer scares you--your negative reaction lessens and eventually you get on with living.


I've very tired--am at our campsite and need to get up early. It's been nice talking to you.

 

[RichL]

I was ignoring it up until I did not know what it was.. Trying to brush off thinking its only the fan .. Thinking why the hell is that fan making so much noise. After I was aware things went crazy.

Yeah, that was my point, you were aware that the noise was there but it was only when you found out what it was that you started worrying about it.
No amount of therapy is going to make anyone's T disappear, only a cure to fix the problem or symptom will do that!

Rich