Dying Cells Myth

[Kimbo Slice]

Hi all,

I'm just wondering what you all think about cells dying after a short period of time from the onset of hearing loss/ tinnitus. My opinion is that, once the cell was dying, you would not be able to hear that frequency at any decibel. For instance, I have a small hearing loss at around the 4000 khz frequency, and I cant hear a sound very well at that frequency under 15db, but over 15db I can hear it perfectly fine. If a cell was dying, wouldn't that mean that once it died, I wouldn't be able to hear that frequency at all? Just an idea.

Thankyou

 

[dan]

Maybe the more hair cells you have at a specific frequency, the better you can hear in that frequency.
But that's just my stupid guess. This type of question should be addressed to hearing cell researchers.

 

[Stina]

Yeah I think perhaps more hair cells play a role Also Ive heard neurologists say that it has to do with the damage to the end of the nerve so maybe this just means that the cells are damaged, not dead and that causes the problems

 

[Valentin]

there are around 3500 hair cells in a cochlea, this is to hear 20000 different frequencies, obviously haircells are sharing some frequencies between them and that might explain why we can still hear but with a different treshold.

 

[Kimbo Slice]

there are around 3500 hair cells in a cochlea, this is to hear 20000 different frequencies, obviously haircells are sharing some frequencies between them and that might explain why we can still hear but with a different treshold.

But wouldn't that mean that you would need more then the 3500 hair cells for that to be true? I just don't see how this is, due to the fact that you can still hear these frequencies at a certain volume. If those frequencies are shared then it would seem that you wouldn't be able to hear at those frequencies at all if they were dead, where as if you had 30000 hair cells (twice the amount of our hearing capabilities) and only some were dead and only reducing the volume of which you could hear at those frequencies. I also heard the amount of hair cells lining the cochlea is somewhere around 15000, but even if that was true it would be 1 hair cell for every frequency.

 

[lapidus]

I remember hearing that fleeting T is the sound of one haircell dying. Once your fleeting T is over, you will never be able to hear that certain frequency again. By that logic, Chronic T must be haircells that are damaged (bent) but not dead. But I think it's more complex than so.

 

[Kimbo Slice]

I remember hearing that fleeting T is the sound of one haircell dying. Once your fleeting T is over, you will never be able to hear that certain frequency again. By that logic, Chronic T must be haircells that are damaged (bent) but not dead. But I think it's more complex than so.

I really wish there was some way to lose T altogether. I would take not being able to hear that 1 tiny little frequency then have this permanently. Either way this kind of sounds like how I was trying to describe it. By the way, what does fleeting T sound like. I only heard about it once but didn't really look into it much.

 

[lapidus]

I really wish there was a way to lose T altogether. I would take not being able to hear that 1 tiny little frequency then have this permanently. Either way this sounds exactly how I was trying to describe it. By the way, what does fleeting T sound like. I only heard about it once but didn't really look into it much.

Fleeting T is a tinnitus sound that just comes outta nowhere and is often quite high in volume at first, then it fades away to silence. Many people experince this, even people without T. There's a really good thread about here somewhere. The correct term isnt fleeting T, but I can't remeber what it is.

EDIT: Here it is https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...fleeting-transient-spontaneous-tinnitus.1834/

 

[Kimbo Slice]

Fleeting T is a tinnitus sound that just comes outta nowhere and is often quite high in volume at first, then it fades away to silence. Many people experince this, even people without T. There's a really good thread about here somewhere. The correct term isnt fleeting T, but I can't remeber what it is.

EDIT: Here it is https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/loud-tone-for-a-few-seconds-—-fleeting-transient-spontaneous-tinnitus.1834/

Oh I think your talking about the Tinnitus that lasts a few seconds to a minute aren't you. It's also known as Transient spontaneous Tinnitus. There's another name for it I have it on the tip of my tongue lol I can't remember what it's called either for some reason. Either way, I had that even before I got Tinnitus, and my hearing always went back to normal after and could hear everything perfectly fine. Of course I was stupid enough to not take those as warning signs.

 

[Kimbo Slice]

I remember now it's called intermittent Tinnitus how could I not remember that. lol

 

[lapidus]

Yeah exactly @Kimbo Slice , but I don't think those are warning signs since a majority of the population have fleeting T now and then. I think it was in that movie "Children of Men" where they mentioned the theory I posted earlier.

 

[lapidus]

Even found this on the movie's wiki page:

"A few times during the film, a loud, ringing tone evocative of tinnitus is heard. This sound generally coincides with the death of a major character (Julian, Jasper) and is referred to by Julian herself, who describes the tones as the last time you'll ever hear that frequency. In this way, then, the loss of the tones is symbolic of the loss of the characters"

EDIT: Ha! I even found the scene

 

[Mr. Cartman]

Even found this on the movie's wiki page:

"A few times during the film, a loud, ringing tone evocative of tinnitus is heard. This sound generally coincides with the death of a major character (Julian, Jasper) and is referred to by Julian herself, who describes the tones as the last time you'll ever hear that frequency. In this way, then, the loss of the tones is symbolic of the loss of the characters"

EDIT: Ha! I even found the scene

Love your post

 

[Sjoerd]

But wouldn't that mean that you would need more then the 3500 hair cells for that to be true? I just don't see how this is, due to the fact that you can still hear these frequencies at a certain volume. If those frequencies are shared then it would seem that you wouldn't be able to hear at those frequencies at all if they were dead, where as if you had 30000 hair cells (twice the amount of our hearing capabilities) and only some were dead and only reducing the volume of which you could hear at those frequencies. I also heard the amount of hair cells lining the cochlea is somewhere around 15000, but even if that was true it would be 1 hair cell for every frequency.

Every hair cells is probably sensitive to a certain frequency band.

 

[Valentin]

Every hair cells is probably sensitive to a certain frequency band.

totally agree

 

[Johno]

I remember hearing that fleeting T is the sound of one haircell dying. Once your fleeting T is over, you will never be able to hear that certain frequency again. By that logic, Chronic T must be haircells that are damaged (bent) but not dead. But I think it's more complex than so.

Dont agree. Fleeting T is too loud for one dying cell. In my opinion it is only reaction to short chemical inbalance in inner ear without any damage.

 

[Johno]

In cochela there is around 15-16 000 hair cells. Around 4000 of them are Inner HC, rest are Outer HC. We hear frequencies with IHC, OHC are only amplifiers of sound. I read, than teoretically - if we remove all OHC, hearing treshold will begin at 50Db. I think, one IHC can hear more than one freq, it has some hearing range, for example 10 Hz.

IHC are more durable against damage than OHC. But of course, they can be damaged or destroyed. Question is, where Tinnitus come from. Damaged IHC? Damaged OHC? From unattached nerves, because their HC already died?

 

[Kimbo Slice]

In cochela there is around 15-16 000 hair cells. Around 4000 of them are Inner HC, rest are Outer HC. We hear frequencies with IHC, OHC are only amplifiers of sound. I read, than teoretically - if we remove all OHC, hearing treshold will begin at 50Db. I think, one IHC can hear more than one freq, it has some hearing range, for example 10 Hz.

IHC are more durable against damage than OHC. But of course, they can be damaged or destroyed. Question is, where Tinnitus come from. Damaged IHC? Damaged OHC? From unattached nerves, because their HC already died?

My bet is that it's just damaged hair cells. How can a nerve be killed from sound that can't even blow a speaker. Like, when you listen to loud music in a club, your ears get damaged but not your skin etc.

 

[Kimbo Slice]

Also, if the nerve or hair cell has died, and either shares frequency, or for just one frequency, how can we still hear that frequency at a higher volume. This is why I think it's a myth. Also we would need to have like 10 times that amount of hair cells to say that multiple hair cells account for one frequency at a different volumes.

 

[Littlebailey]

One thing about so-called fleeting T, why does everyone say they go totally deaf for that few seconds they get the ringing? I was under the impression everyone got fleeting T, for a few seconds that went away, and it was nothing. I certainly experienced it quite regularly, all my life. Just you know, from time to time. Never thought a thing about it.

But more importantly, I never had the sensation of being deaf, in addition to that very brief buzzing. That's why I'm almost wondering if I'm thinking of the same thing. The brief high-pitched ringing, yes. But not *deaf*. Maybe I was just too cavalier. Maybe the sounds comes and goes so fast, that I never consider to experience a sense of deafness.

But since folks talk about it a lot on this board, am I to believe that no one ever experienced it before they got regular, permanent T? Because a lot of people act startled and afraid of it, like they don't know what it is, and presumably never experienced it before.

 

[Valentin]

One thing about so-called fleeting T, why does everyone say they go totally deaf for that few seconds they get the ringing? I was under the impression everyone got fleeting T, for a few seconds that went away, and it was nothing. I certainly experienced it quite regularly, all my life. Just you know, from time to time. Never thought a thing about it.

But more importantly, I never had the sensation of being deaf, in addition to that very brief buzzing. That's why I'm almost wondering if I'm thinking of the same thing. The brief high-pitched ringing, yes. But not *deaf*. Maybe I was just too cavalier. Maybe the sounds comes and goes so fast, that I never consider to experience a sense of deafness.

But since folks talk about it a lot on this board, am I to believe that no one ever experienced it before they got regular, permanent T? Because a lot of people act startled and afraid of it, like they don't know what it is, and presumably never experienced it before.

i'm not deaf when i have a fleeting T, it's just a sound that i hear but my hearing is not impaired.

my brother is deaf when he has a fleeting T, go figure

 

[Sjoerd]

My bet is that it's just damaged hair cells. How can a nerve be killed from sound that can't even blow a speaker. Like, when you listen to loud music in a club, your ears get damaged but not your skin etc.

That is a bad analogy! If I point a laser on my skin, noting will happen, but if I point the same laser directly in my eye I will probably go blind! Different cells are damaged in different ways.

Like I said before, one hair cell is (likely) to a single discreet frequency but a frequency band. Lest say form 950 Hz tot 1050 Hz. The hair cell is probably the most sensitive at 1000Hz and dropping of near the edges of the frequency band. The loss of 1 hair cell does not have to result in total hearing loss. The hair cell right next to it is probably sensitive to a band of 900 to 1000 (the most sensitive in 950 Hz). Our brain being our brain, it is very capable of interpreting missing information etc etc.

Damage to hair cells will probably make the less as well....I guess.

On a side note...permanent damage to hair cells is not the soul cause of tinnitus. Temporary threshold shifts can induce tinnitus all the same!

Furthermore I do not believe that fleeting T is caused by dying hair cells. I would guess it is either a neurotransmitter imbalance in the inner ear or some auditory epilepsy (similar to the muscles twitch everybody probably has every one in a while).

 

[Kimbo Slice]

That is a bad analogy! If I point a laser on my skin, noting will happen, but if I point the same laser directly in my eye I will probably go blind! Different cells are damaged in different ways.

Like I said before, one hair cell is (likely) to a single discreet frequency but a frequency band. Lest say form 950 Hz tot 1050 Hz. The hair cell is probably the most sensitive at 1000Hz and dropping of near the edges of the frequency band. The loss of 1 hair cell does not have to result in total hearing loss. The hair cell right next to it is probably sensitive to a band of 900 to 1000 (the most sensitive in 950 Hz). Our brain being our brain, it is very capable of interpreting missing information etc etc.

Damage to hair cells will probably make the less as well....I guess.

On a side note...permanent damage to hair cells is not the soul cause of tinnitus. Temporary threshold shifts can induce tinnitus all the same!

Furthermore I do not believe that fleeting T is caused by dying hair cells. I would guess it is either a neurotransmitter imbalance in the inner ear or some auditory epilepsy (similar to the muscles twitch everybody probably has every one in a while).

So if there are 15000 cells, and the human ear can hear up to 15000-20000 Khz. How can multiple cells account for different volumes at the same frequency. When the amount of hair cells we have add up to that many frequencies in total. Frequency (Khz) is not the same as volume (Decibel) and if we had something like 100,000 hair cells I could see this being true.

EDIT: Also if we have 15000 hair cells and they are to different frequencies, why would we have 15000 hair cells anyway? We would have no use for like 12000 of those hair cells if they were sharing the same frequency.

 

[Sjoerd]

So if there are 15000 cells, and the human ear can hear up to 15000-20000 Khz. How can multiple cells account for different volumes at the same frequency.

I am not a scientist, so I do not no for sure. From a mechanical point of view is is extremely unlikely that one hair cell will respond to one discreet frequency (and have no response slightly above and below that frequency).

When the amount of hair cells we have add up to that many frequencies in total. Frequency (Khz) is not the same as volume (Decibel) and if we had something like 100,000 hair cells I could see this being true.

Lets say we have a pure tone of 1 kHz. 1 hair cell with the centre frequency at 1 kHz responding with an amplitude of 1, and 2 hair cells (1 slightly higher and 1 slightly lower) responding with an amplitude of 0.5. the total perceived amplitude of the 1 kHz tone would be 1+0.5+0.5=2. There is a difference between the sound that is actually "heard" by the inner ear, and the sound that is perceived by our continuousness. We have a very power full post processing unit in between (the brain).

It is far to easy to stated that one hair cell can hear one frequency and therefor we need 20.000 hair cells to hear 20.000 frequencies.

 

[Kimbo Slice]

I am not a scientist, so I do not no for sure. From a mechanical point of view is is extremely unlikely that one hair cell will respond to one discreet frequency (and have no response slightly above and below that frequency).



Lets say we have a pure tone of 1 kHz. 1 hair cell with the centre frequency at 1 kHz responding with an amplitude of 1, and 2 hair cells (1 slightly higher and 1 slightly lower) responding with an amplitude of 0.5. the total perceived amplitude of the 1 kHz tone would be 1+0.5+0.5=2. There is a difference between the sound that is actually "heard" by the inner ear, and the sound that is perceived by our continuousness. We have a very power full post processing unit in between (the brain).

It is far to easy to stated that one hair cell can hear one frequency and therefor we need 20.000 hair cells to hear 20.000 frequencies.

Makes sense, but then why would each cell share frequency bands, when there are 15000 cells, which is equivalent to what the human ear can hear at? I'd just like to know what you base this theory off of.

 

[Valentin]

Makes sense, but then why would each cell share frequency bands, when there are 15000 cells, which is equivalent to what the human ear can hear at? I'd just like to know what you base this theory off of.

that's called a back up given by mother nature

 

[john2012]

kimbo, your line of thinking is very clear and you could be correct. im sure we'll soon see
many hearing myths debunked, what we think of as tinnitus will be inverted and upended.
the only thing we may be sure of is what we dont know, which is a good thing. wellness is possible.
kids counting pebbles on a beach won't tell you that much about the coastline. that internal cosmos
between the ears is not as quantifiable as some think. billions spent on cancer, science the fool. so far.
for anybody suffering tinnitus here, forget damage, your brain can heal.

 

[Contrast]

Hi all,

I'm just wondering what you all think about cells dying after a short period of time from the onset of hearing loss/ tinnitus. My opinion is that, once the cell was dying, you would not be able to hear that frequency at any decibel. For instance, I have a small hearing loss at around the 4000 khz frequency, and I cant hear a sound very well at that frequency under 15db, but over 15db I can hear it perfectly fine. If a cell was dying, wouldn't that mean that once it died, I wouldn't be able to hear that frequency at all? Just an idea.

Thankyou

once a hair cell dies or is completely denerved that super specific frequency is gone.