Evolution vs Creation and So Forth

[eagerUser]

Evolution + Creation => Evocation.

 

[JohnAdams]

Look GlennS, I don't just believe in Creation because I am a narrow minded idiot. I have actually studied the Big Bang cosmology thoroughly trying to convince myself that I am wrong. I see this tower of mathematical and astronomical evidence and it's explanations as nothing but excuses and excuses stacked upon each other to justify the original hypothesis, which strangely originated with a Catholic priest named Georges LaMaitre. I have on the other side of the balance, evidence that the Bible is true and it's a kind of complicated examination of history and prophecy, which unless someone expressly asks me to explain, I will not cram down anyone's throat unless they already claim to be a Christian. If they are Christians then they have no excuse not to want to know about these things and I have every right to correct them because we are both members of the Kingdom of God.

I assure you that I am not just some dumbass trash that's clinging to muh Bible because I am afraid of being wrong. On the contrary, I love being proven wrong, because it opens a new door to truth, and knowledge which makes me a better person. I just see nothing that absolutely disproves the Creation narrative, yet.

 

[GlennS]

I love being proven wrong, because it opens a new door to truth

You're welcome to believe what you wish, but you can't prove creationism. It's a matter of faith, not science.

 

[JohnAdams]

GlennS, I totally agree with you on that. Really, most stuff that happens in the world are things that we have to just accept.

Take the death of Jeffry Epstein for example. We can only take it on faith that he actually died unless we have firsthand knowledge of what exactly happened.

 

[Eric N]

There is no way evolution is not true, there is literally no other explanation from a scientific perspective. Sure we may not understand certain details about it but that will probably change in the future.

Not accepting Evolution requires a belief that first of all God exists, and he is still playing an active role in the universe e.g. creating creatures out of thin air at different points in Earth's history and potentially more creatures in the future.

 

[JohnAdams]

there is literally no other explanation from a scientific perspective.

It's not science.
Science is:

How do you test evolution? How do you test a living cell coming together from chemicals in a lab? They have not done that! If they can make a living cell in a lab experiment from basic chemicals that they can prove existed in nature, a cell that can self replicate, then I will renounce Christianity. BUT they CANNOT do that. Nor will they. Therefore, evolution is the very definition of unscientific. It is faith.

 

[JohnAdams]

Not accepting Evolution requires a belief that first of all God exists, and he is still playing an active role in the universe e.g. creating creatures out of thin air at different points in Earth's history and potentially more creatures in the future.

Why does creationism require that God has to have created creatures out of thin air at different points in history? The (Christian) creationist model states that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old and all basic animal types were created in 6 literal days at the very beginning of that.

 

[Eric N]

Why does creationism require that God has to have created creatures out of thin air at different points in history? The (Christian) creationist model states that the Earth is only about 6,000 years old and all basic animal types were created in 6 literal days at the very beginning of that.

This is completely unscientific. It amazes me that smart people can still believe in such things.

 

[JohnAdams]

This is completely unscientific. It amazes me that smart people can still believe in such things.

It is unscientific! I admit that, now you need to admit that your belief that the big bang happened 14 billion years ago and a living cell formed out of chemicals from rocks and gave rise to all life is also unscientific. That's my entire point.

I am however flattered that you think I am smart.

 

[Dizzyhead888]

A bit diverting from the subtopic but really interesting to read!

I was an atheist and back to faith.

How do you explain miracles that happen?

In Lebanon, there is one of the most active saints in the world. St Charbel.
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2018/12/15/miracles-are-on-the-rise-in-lebanon
There are around 30,000 miracles "registered" in his name. Thousands of others not registered
There is a dedicated TV episode for the monthly miracles that happen.
For a miracle to be registered, it needs to be 1. Complete. 2. Instantaneous 3. Spontaneous 4. Without relapse.

Most of those testimonies are medically incurable conditions e.g. Stage 4 terminal cancer, Multiple Sclerosis, etc.
There are tons of testimonies on YouTube and on the internet (unfortunately most are in Arabic).
Most of those testimonies claim that the sufferer saw this saint (1) in reality, (2) in his dreams, or (3) heard his voice and was told by the Saint that God's has answered your prayers and you will be cured and were instantly cured after it. Tests are immediately conducted and confirm their full healing.

I'll try to analyze this phenomenon.
I will play the devil's advocate and question whether, for example, a Stage 4 terminal cancer miracle was indeed God's work or not by asking the following questions:

• So you would ask can someone fully recover and heal from Stage 4 terminal cancer?

I am not a doctor and not a cancer expert, but the odds are very much that you won't. I am not sure of the numbers but i think it's a 99% that you won't recover. Treatments don't heal cancer but prolong the expected lifetime.

• OK, but you might ask, yes anything is possible in this world and even the rarest phenomena can happen.

I agree with you and so yes for the sake of the argument, I would agree with the claim that a Stage 4 terminal cancer can totally remit and this is a very rare phenomenon.

• Then we move to the next level: you ask, can it even remit spontaneously and instantaneously?

The answer is no, its impossible for a Stage 4 terminal cancer that is spread in a big part of your body to just remit spontaneously and instantaneously (meaning literally "Overnight"). But for the sake of the argument, I will say, that yes it can even, in the rarest of the rarest phenomenon, remit spontaneously and instantaneously.

• The next level: can it remit completely, instantaneously, spontaneously just after this patient claimed that they saw a saint and they were told by him that they will be cured.

Well, that's really impossible. Can it happen once? The odds are impossible but let's assume there was this quackhead that happened to claim that they saw a saint and in the same night, he was the luckiest guy in the world and got his cancer cured in this SAME NIGHT.

But this didn't happen once. It happened thousands of times. MOST of the 30,000 testimonies are similar in pattern. 1. Incurable condition, 2. Saw saint and told they will be healed. 3. Are cured and confirmed by tests. 4. Doctors are baffled and can't explain what happened.

This is not the best evidence possible but this is the closest proof that God exists and performs miracles and answers prayers.

But prayers will not be answered just like that, you cant pray for a little and then God doesnt respond , so conclude that God doesn't exist. It takes dedication, commitment, full faith et.c

Now you might ask me, why he cures x person, but not y person.. this is a completely different topic. I will not try to answer it. I will just say I don't know.

I welcome counterarguments.

(BTW the above might interest you @JohnAdams, @Chinmoku)

 

[GregCA]

In Lebanon, there is one of the most active saints in the world. St Charbel.
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2018/12/15/miracles-are-on-the-rise-in-lebanon
There are around 30,000 miracles "registered" in his name. Thousands of others not registered
There is a dedicated TV episode for the monthly miracles that happen.
For a miracle to be registered, it needs to be 1. Complete. 2. Instantaneous 3. Spontaneous 4. Without relapse.

Most of those testimonies are medically incurable conditions e.g. Stage 4 terminal cancer, Multiple Sclerosis, etc.
There are tons of testimonies on YouTube and on the internet (unfortunately most are in Arabic).
Most of those testimonies claim that the sufferer saw this saint (1) in reality, (2) in his dreams, or (3) heard his voice and was told by the Saint that God's has answered your prayers and you will be cured and were instantly cured after it. Tests are immediately conducted and confirm their full healing.

Sounds like the perfect place to get rid of Tinnitus. Have you thought about going?

 

[Daniel Lion]

Sounds like the perfect place to get rid of Tinnitus. Have you thought about going?

Lebanese food is delicious and the people are awesome... go and report please Dizzyhead888.

 

[JohnAdams]

A bit diverting from the subtopic but really interesting to read!

I was an atheist and back to faith.

How do you explain miracles that happen?

In Lebanon, there is one of the most active saints in the world. St Charbel.
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2018/12/15/miracles-are-on-the-rise-in-lebanon
There are around 30,000 miracles "registered" in his name. Thousands of others not registered
There is a dedicated TV episode for the monthly miracles that happen.
For a miracle to be registered, it needs to be 1. Complete. 2. Instantaneous 3. Spontaneous 4. Without relapse.

Most of those testimonies are medically incurable conditions e.g. Stage 4 terminal cancer, Multiple Sclerosis, etc.
There are tons of testimonies on YouTube and on the internet (unfortunately most are in Arabic).
Most of those testimonies claim that the sufferer saw this saint (1) in reality, (2) in his dreams, or (3) heard his voice and was told by the Saint that God's has answered your prayers and you will be cured and were instantly cured after it. Tests are immediately conducted and confirm their full healing.

I'll try to analyze this phenomenon.
I will play the devil's advocate and question whether, for example, a Stage 4 terminal cancer miracle was indeed God's work or not by asking the following questions:

• So you would ask can someone fully recover and heal from Stage 4 terminal cancer?

I am not a doctor and not a cancer expert, but the odds are very much that you won't. I am not sure of the numbers but i think it's a 99% that you won't recover. Treatments don't heal cancer but prolong the expected lifetime.

• OK, but you might ask, yes anything is possible in this world and even the rarest phenomena can happen.

I agree with you and so yes for the sake of the argument, I would agree with the claim that a Stage 4 terminal cancer can totally remit and this is a very rare phenomenon.

• Then we move to the next level: you ask, can it even remit spontaneously and instantaneously?

The answer is no, its impossible for a Stage 4 terminal cancer that is spread in a big part of your body to just remit spontaneously and instantaneously (meaning literally "Overnight"). But for the sake of the argument, I will say, that yes it can even, in the rarest of the rarest phenomenon, remit spontaneously and instantaneously.

• The next level: can it remit completely, instantaneously, spontaneously just after this patient claimed that they saw a saint and they were told by him that they will be cured.

Well, that's really impossible. Can it happen once? The odds are impossible but let's assume there was this quackhead that happened to claim that they saw a saint and in the same night, he was the luckiest guy in the world and got his cancer cured in this SAME NIGHT.

But this didn't happen once. It happened thousands of times. MOST of the 30,000 testimonies are similar in pattern. 1. Incurable condition, 2. Saw saint and told they will be healed. 3. Are cured and confirmed by tests. 4. Doctors are baffled and can't explain what happened.

This is not the best evidence possible but this is the closest proof that God exists and performs miracles and answers prayers.

But prayers will not be answered just like that, you cant pray for a little and then God doesnt respond , so conclude that God doesn't exist. It takes dedication, commitment, full faith et.c

Now you might ask me, why he cures x person, but not y person.. this is a completely different topic. I will not try to answer it. I will just say I don't know.

I welcome counterarguments.

(BTW the above might interest you @JohnAdams, @Chinmoku)

I have only heard of this happening once. I was visiting a Greek Orthodox church and met a man that had just had stage 4 stomach cancer and when they opened him up to operate it was gone. I don't think he was lying at all.

 

[Dizzyhead888]

Sounds like the perfect place to get rid of Tinnitus. Have you thought about going?

I am from there.
Tinnitus is one of the other severe medical problems I have, unfortunately.
I go to the saint's hermitage monthly. No response yet. I dream of being cured and reporting.

But literally almost EVERYDAY there is new testimonial posted.

Those testimonials will convert an atheist into faith.

I watch them everyday and kind of lighten my mood/pain from my medical problems.

But anyways, there is no formula or step by step manual for receiving a miracle. Otherwise, if you think of it for a second, life doesnt make sense anymore if there was. There will be no diseases, so sadness no pain. Is that bad? well thats another question. But of course with that way of life will lose its normalcy and become more of a defined and programmed way of living.

What logically makes sense is that if you confess and live a good life following the word of God, you could be more likely to receive a miracle. But even that is not necessary a way. Its a way to go to heaven surely but not necessary the way to get cured.

We don't know God's will in curing people and answering prayers. My aunt is the most religious person i know, literally spent her life praying to God and living a nun-like life. She suffered 4 years of debilitating pain and died at a young age.
Why didn't God cure her? or Why didn't God at least let her die peacefully instead of 4 years of pain and bedridden?
I don't know and don't want to try to answer it. Then you have less religious people receiving miracles.

So I just accept that there is God's will. I have to live a good life following the word of God and hope for the best.

 

[Dizzyhead888]

I have only heard of this happening once. I was visiting a Greek Orthodox church and met a man that had just had stage 4 stomach cancer and when they opened him up to operate it was gone. I don't think he was lying at all.

Miracles happen a lot. Unfortunately, the church does not know how to publicize those and they remain behind the walls.

There are saints beatified frequently. This process requires a number of miracles to be in their name. The Vatican's miracle registration is very very strict and restrictive.

In Lebanon, there is a hermitage fully dedicated for recording this Saint's miracles. It's becoming a fascinating phenomena that the Economist has picked up on it and TV shows have been dedicated to it.

 

[Dizzyhead888]

In any case, regardless if you are religious or atheist, the teaching of Christianity is great.

Ignore the secondary and less important teachings which can be debated (eg. sex before marriage and others) , Christianity is summarized by Love and Forgiveness and Goodness. If the world followed Christianity, it would have been a much better world. Someone can just claim I don't need religion to develop a decent moral compass. I totally agree. But most probably the ones that argue that are high IQ individuals. The average joe needs to be schooled. Think of it.

I made religious friends recently and my experience was nothing but wonderful. People who met me once became so passionate about my sufferings (including tinnitus). I don't know them a long time and they keep contacting me and checking up on me. You can argue that those people behave like this because they are controlled by Christianity. Well, I disagree. Whether you are innately a good/kind person or not doesn't matter because if you try to be kind/good, you will become one. Fake it until you make it. Those people ultimately all became naturally sympathetic and kind individuals.

 

[Champ]

I used to believe in evolution until I learned biology and human anatomy and physiology. There is absolutely no way a living cell, even the simplest one, could have happened by chance. It doesn't work.

View attachment 32136

View attachment 32137

There is no possible way that a cell came together with all of the parts it needs to function all at the first iteration. There is also no way the DNA that contains the instructions needed to cause the cell to perform all of its functions, including replicate could have came together on the first iteration.

Then even more impossible, there is no way the cell, AND it's DNA came together on the first iteration.

The simplest cell is vastly more complicated than any machine that humans have ever created or ever will create. The mathematical probability that such a thing could come together in this world by chance is just outside the realm of possibility.

A cell is a molecular machine. The DNA is the instruction set, which is in base 4 machine code, that is used to make the cell make copies of itself. How can anyone possibly believe that such a thing wasn't created by an intelligence? The order of the universe is entropy, where things tend to move towards disorder.

Also, if this sort of process were even possible in the first place, how come we don't see new types of life, that use other types of methods to function and replicate or not replicate, in infinite variations, arise every day? We don't. We never see new types of information arranging at a molecular level anywhere in nature. Isn't it odd that they say the living cell spontaneously arose billions of years ago and all life comes from that, yet we don't see that same thing happening today?

Honestly one of the greatest posts I've ever seen in my life.

 

[Ecip]

Holy crap, this nonsense thread is still going, huh?

 

[Ecip]

Ol'Georgie got 'er right.

 

[Ecip]

 

[Mister Muso]

Holy crap, this interesting thread is still being trolled by @Ecip!

 

[Ecip]

Holy crap, this interesting thread is still being trolled by @Ecip!

Hahhaha.

 

[Mister Muso]

You know, I share a lot of John's beliefs and faith - not the young earth bit, but he's clearly a smart guy and asks some really interesting questions.

I get the anger that's directed towards religion sometimes, but I try to approach everything with a curious mind. And, like John, I love being proved wrong and seeing things from a new perspective.

 

[JohnAdams]

Hahhaha.

I guess in your superior brain you have some kind of rinky dink animation playing of a few molecules floating around and bumping into each other and then forming a little spherical blob.

 

[JohnAdams]

Think about the evolution of sex. Before two sexes, organisms would have had to self replicate while also producing offspring that were developing the ability to create a haploid cell as well as the ability to both deliver and receive complementary haploids. This would have, according to evolution, taken millions of years. These organisms would have to have still been self replicating asexually for millions of years while possessing useless, yet extremely complex developing organs to produce sperm and eggs, as well as the mechanisms to bring them together, and gestate the new offspring.

Ridiculous.

 

[Mister Muso]

Think about the evolution of sex. Before two sexes, organisms would have had to self replicate while also producing offspring that were developing the ability to create a haploid cell as well as the ability to both deliver and receive complementary haploids. This would have, according to evolution, taken millions of years. These organisms would have to have still been self replicating asexually for millions of years while possessing useless, yet extremely complex developing organs to produce sperm and eggs, as well as the mechanisms to bring them together, and gestate the new offspring.

Ridiculous.

Unless there is a master plan that guides such evolutionary processes, perhaps? We can both call that God, Dawkins might call it "natural selection" but he would be equally unable to explain why.

 

[Mister Muso]

Calling it God wouldn't require adopting a young Earth theory, unless you take Genesis 1 literally rather than as the ancient Hebrews' interpretation of the creation myths which were common at the time?

 

[Chinmoku]

A bit diverting from the subtopic but really interesting to read!

I was an atheist and back to faith.

How do you explain miracles that happen?

In Lebanon, there is one of the most active saints in the world. St Charbel.
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2018/12/15/miracles-are-on-the-rise-in-lebanon
There are around 30,000 miracles "registered" in his name. Thousands of others not registered
There is a dedicated TV episode for the monthly miracles that happen.
For a miracle to be registered, it needs to be 1. Complete. 2. Instantaneous 3. Spontaneous 4. Without relapse.

Most of those testimonies are medically incurable conditions e.g. Stage 4 terminal cancer, Multiple Sclerosis, etc.
There are tons of testimonies on YouTube and on the internet (unfortunately most are in Arabic).
Most of those testimonies claim that the sufferer saw this saint (1) in reality, (2) in his dreams, or (3) heard his voice and was told by the Saint that God's has answered your prayers and you will be cured and were instantly cured after it. Tests are immediately conducted and confirm their full healing.

I'll try to analyze this phenomenon.
I will play the devil's advocate and question whether, for example, a Stage 4 terminal cancer miracle was indeed God's work or not by asking the following questions:

• So you would ask can someone fully recover and heal from Stage 4 terminal cancer?

I am not a doctor and not a cancer expert, but the odds are very much that you won't. I am not sure of the numbers but i think it's a 99% that you won't recover. Treatments don't heal cancer but prolong the expected lifetime.

• OK, but you might ask, yes anything is possible in this world and even the rarest phenomena can happen.

I agree with you and so yes for the sake of the argument, I would agree with the claim that a Stage 4 terminal cancer can totally remit and this is a very rare phenomenon.

• Then we move to the next level: you ask, can it even remit spontaneously and instantaneously?

The answer is no, its impossible for a Stage 4 terminal cancer that is spread in a big part of your body to just remit spontaneously and instantaneously (meaning literally "Overnight"). But for the sake of the argument, I will say, that yes it can even, in the rarest of the rarest phenomenon, remit spontaneously and instantaneously.

• The next level: can it remit completely, instantaneously, spontaneously just after this patient claimed that they saw a saint and they were told by him that they will be cured.

Well, that's really impossible. Can it happen once? The odds are impossible but let's assume there was this quackhead that happened to claim that they saw a saint and in the same night, he was the luckiest guy in the world and got his cancer cured in this SAME NIGHT.

But this didn't happen once. It happened thousands of times. MOST of the 30,000 testimonies are similar in pattern. 1. Incurable condition, 2. Saw saint and told they will be healed. 3. Are cured and confirmed by tests. 4. Doctors are baffled and can't explain what happened.

This is not the best evidence possible but this is the closest proof that God exists and performs miracles and answers prayers.

But prayers will not be answered just like that, you cant pray for a little and then God doesnt respond , so conclude that God doesn't exist. It takes dedication, commitment, full faith et.c

Now you might ask me, why he cures x person, but not y person.. this is a completely different topic. I will not try to answer it. I will just say I don't know.

I welcome counterarguments.

(BTW the above might interest you @JohnAdams, @Chinmoku)

Very interesting. If you look at the miracles by Padre Pio, the healing of Matteo Colella is amazing and well documented.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...e-pio-recounts-story-of-miraculous-cure-35618

The church is always very careful in recognizing miracles. Some of the clergy don't like miracles. Look at all the problems Padre Pio had with Fr Gemelli.
Of all the thousands of miracles happened in Lourdes, only 70 have been approved officially.
It's a fascinating matter.
Saint Charbel seems to be one of the most prolific miracle saints. He even heals people who don't know him or who belong to different faiths.

 

[JohnAdams]

Very interesting. If you look at the miracles by Padre Pio, the healing of Matteo Colella is amazing and well documented.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...e-pio-recounts-story-of-miraculous-cure-35618

The church is always very careful in recognizing miracles. Some of the clergy don't like miracles. Look at all the problems Padre Pio had with Fr Gemelli.
Of all the thousands of miracles happened in Lourdes, only 70 have been approved officially.
It's a fascinating matter.
Saint Charbel seems to be one of the most prolific miracle saints. He even heals people who don't know him or who belong to different faiths.

Naturally, as coming myself from a Protestant background, praying to the dead is very alien to may practice. That being said, the only time I witnessed people claiming a miracle was at an Orthodox church I was visiting. An older man was opened up to remove stomach cancer and the cancer was gone, and I'm sure you're aware that they have the same beliefs as the Roman church regarding praying to the dead, saints, etc. Really makes me wonder.

 

[Chinmoku]

We don't know God's will in curing people and answering prayers. My aunt is the most religious person i know, literally spent her life praying to God and living a nun-like life. She suffered 4 years of debilitating pain and died at a young age.
Why didn't God cure her? or Why didn't God at least let her die peacefully instead of 4 years of pain and bedridden?
I don't know and don't want to try to answer it. Then you have less religious people receiving miracles.

So I just accept that there is God's will. I have to live a good life following the word of God and hope for the best.

In fact some of the saints get the stigmata, which are very painful. St Paul asked God to remove his thorn of the flesh (could have been tinnitus) but God refused.
Even Jesus asked to be spared his passion but submitted to the Father's will.