Exposed to Less Than 85 dB?!

[HollowZer0]

Hey all, Zer0 again,

Just a short(ish) one this time: is it possible to have a permanent tinnitus increase from sounds less than 85dB?
Also: is it bad to speak loudly with earplugs in?

I just went to a restaurant where they were playing loud-ish music, according to my decibel app on my iPhone the volume was around 80db average, peaked at 86db. I had no plugs in for the first half hour since I had forgotten them, and afterwards I went to the washroom to wet some paper towels and put them in my ears for at least some protection. Seemed fine.

I did notice that my voice sounded very loud to myself with these wet paper plugs, more so than how loud I sound to myself with foam plugs. I think I was adequately protected from the outside noise, but now in hindsight I'm thinking that the perceived volume of my voice was likely over 85db in my head.

I had my last spike from a small social gathering but it went away. This seemed louder though; before I put my wet paper plugs in, there were a few instances where the combined sound of the loud music and people talking made my ears sound distorted, like when a 60's guitar amp is pushed with a lot of volume and starts "breaking up" - when the volume is cranked and it doesn't sound "clean."

Is it possible that the restaurant was too loud?
Is it possible that my loud speaking + plugs was too loud?
Do you people think this could be a permanent spike or just temp?

Thank you all who read and respond. I am so grateful to have supportive people to lean on even if online, since neither family nor doctors seem to care, probably since they don't know what it's like living with this. I read all the responses on my other threads, but often I don't reply because I don't know what to say. But I do take in the replies and think about them.

Also for discussion: since I have T from noise exposure, do the "safe volume exposure levels" differ from a healthy individuals'? Workplace safety dictates that 85db is the loudest an environment can be for 8 hours of unprotected exposure, but for us who have been previously damaged by noise, are even these "safe" volume levels too much for our ears?

Thanks a bunch again.

 

[Mellow7]

Hey all, Zer0 again,

Just a short(ish) one this time: is it possible to have a permanent tinnitus increase from sounds less than 85dB?
Also: is it bad to speak loudly with earplugs in?

I just went to a restaurant where they were playing loud-ish music, according to my decibel app on my iPhone the volume was around 80db average, peaked at 86db. I had no plugs in for the first half hour since I had forgotten them, and afterwards I went to the washroom to wet some paper towels and put them in my ears for at least some protection. Seemed fine.

I did notice that my voice sounded very loud to myself with these wet paper plugs, more so than how loud I sound to myself with foam plugs. I think I was adequately protected from the outside noise, but now in hindsight I'm thinking that the perceived volume of my voice was likely over 85db in my head.

I had my last spike from a small social gathering but it went away. This seemed louder though; before I put my wet paper plugs in, there were a few instances where the combined sound of the loud music and people talking made my ears sound distorted, like when a 60's guitar amp is pushed with a lot of volume and starts "breaking up" - when the volume is cranked and it doesn't sound "clean."

Is it possible that the restaurant was too loud?
Is it possible that my loud speaking + plugs was too loud?
Do you people think this could be a permanent spike or just temp?

Thank you all who read and respond. I am so grateful to have supportive people to lean on even if online, since neither family nor doctors seem to care, probably since they don't know what it's like living with this. I read all the responses on my other threads, but often I don't reply because I don't know what to say. But I do take in the replies and think about them.

Also for discussion: since I have T from noise exposure, do the "safe volume exposure levels" differ from a healthy individuals'? Workplace safety dictates that 85db is the loudest an environment can be for 8 hours of unprotected exposure, but for us who have been previously damaged by noise, are even these "safe" volume levels too much for our ears?

Thanks a bunch again.

This is a touchy subject on this forum, since everyone will have different guidelines. Personally, I don't think that this amount of noise can cause hearing damage. Can it cause a T spike however? Sure. I went to a class about 6 weeks ago in a room lined with speakers, but the sound levels did not exceed 80db. After 15 minutes, thinking I would be just fine, I plugged my ears, because my TTTS was acting up. I still had a T spike, that has lasted to this day. But other people, even those with T, are just fine in these conditions. They generally don't report on here of course.

The 'safe volume levels' mean just about squat if you end your day with increased T imo. I would do what you feel comfortable with and avoid the situations or use adequate hearing protection in those that do not. On the other hand, you should probably not overdo it either, since that will lead to a more sensitive auditory system (another problem I am currently facing). But I think desensitizing the auditory system is still something you can do later, whereas decreasing T is much more difficult. That is why I'm giving my ears as much rest as I can right now...

 

[GregCA]

Just a short(ish) one this time: is it possible to have a permanent tinnitus increase from sounds less than 85dB?

Some people will claim that a fly in the neighbor's house gave them a "permanent spike" (I enjoy the way people use this oxymoron in here), so it really depends who you ask. The potential damage depends on the volume of course, but also the length of exposure, and the sensitivity of your ears, so it's a complex question.

I did notice that my voice sounded very loud to myself with these wet paper plugs, more so than how loud I sound to myself with foam plugs. I think I was adequately protected from the outside noise, but now in hindsight I'm thinking that the perceived volume of my voice was likely over 85db in my head.

Probably due to the occlusion effect.

If this was me, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Bill Bauer]

are even these "safe" volume levels too much for our ears?

Yes, our ears have been compromised. Some people say they are ok, but there are certainly others who regret taking the risk of being exposed to those supposedly safe sounds. Many of us who began protecting our ears even from the moderate noises like that of a vacuum cleaner saw improvement. Those who didn't experience spikes following being exposed to noise will never know whether their T would have faded if they were to try to protect their ears.

I just went to a restaurant where they were playing loud-ish music, according to my decibel app on my iPhone the volume was around 80db average, peaked at 86db. I had no plugs

You took a risk. I hope it works out for you. However, if you are fortunate enough to not get any long term consequences, I hope you won't keep trying your luck.

wet some paper towels and put them in my ears

You might have gotten 1 dB noise reduction from that. Even earplugs provide a lot less protection than you think:
https://www.coopersafety.com/earplugs-noise-reduction
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media...how-to-use-the-noise-reduction-rating-nrr.pdf
http://www.sensear.com/blog/noise-reduction-rating-nrr-a-beginner's-guide
https://www.earsandears.com/noise-reduction-ratings-nrr-safe-noise-levels/

Here are the stories of the people who took this risk and regretted it. This is just the tip of an iceberg. This forum is full of stories like the ones below (click on the "up arrow" to see the messages in context):

I tried the 'laissez faire' approach for that first period, where I didn't let myself be bothered by most sounds, except for 80db+ (when I started plugging the ears) and still went out and did all my old activities, but that ended up costing me dearly. I had a 'spike' (if it can still be called that) that hasn't gone away.

I can't take it anymore. I don't want to die but at this stage the urge to stop suffering is stronger. Ps. To all members in this forum advising against so called "overprotection". I never exposed myself to sounds even remotely considered as being potentially harmful to healthy people but because of your advice I was exposed to sounds uncomfortable for me which eventually proved to be damaging.

At initial stages i was very weary about sound levels around me and used protection everytime I felt uncomfortable.

Only by reading TRT literature or some posts here I started to expose my self to sounds loud but never louder than 75-80 dB.

Whenever I was feeling like something is not right I was stupid enough to believe you these changes were part of "the natural process of healing".

Is this your healing? Every time you feel like giving this sort of advice have my case in mind.

It started 2015 with a slight ring that I hardly noticed, but I continued to to go to loud events, use headphones/earphones, loud music, basically everything that you shouldn't do. Then last year it became a massive problem, probably a month before I joined the site. Ever since then it's become a bigger part of my life than it should be.

When people speak of habituation, I'm pretty sure they refer to what I was experiencing when my T was a lot less louder. It was easy to tune out which is why I never took it seriously until it was too late. What I have now is impossible to ignore completely.

It lead to stress and anxiety which have destroyed my sleeping. Without any medication I get maybe an hour of unrefreshing sleep. I take ambien which gives me 4 at most which is my new normal now. Memory and cognitive abilities have fallen off a cliff. I suggest you drop concerts, headphones, and anything else involving loud sounds. You don't not want to reach this state ever. Take care.

the noise has actually got worse - a lot worse just lately as I've been exposed to a noisy office environment. Normal for everyone else but too noisy for my ears. I now have a noise like a jet engine, a rushing wind with a high-pitched whine in it.

Yeah. I am going through the same thing. Got my T to improve and go back to mild and went to a restaurant I have eaten safely at twice post T and have had the loudest spike that has, after a week, not improved at all. And my H got worse too.

While I agree some people here go overboard with hearing protection, this increase in noise sensitivity after wearing hearing protection is only a temporary one. It is not the same thing as the brain turning up the auditory gain when there is a permanent loss in hearing.



With regards to noise exposure that isn't dangerous to most people, I developed a new tone in my right ear after a noise exposure at work back in October. I spent about half an hour in an area that I would estimate was at most 90db, but it was probably less than that. I had deeply inserted large foam earplugs at the time, but apparently that was not enough protection. That tone has not gone away, and it's not some psychosomatic spike. Spikes in volume are somewhat relative in my opinion, they can be attributed to stress, lack of sleep, noise exposure, diet, etc., but completely new tones that do not go away are something different.

What is safe for you may not be safe for me. And the fact is there has been no good study done assessing the vulnerability of already damaged auditory systems. The gold standard for dangerous noise levels is based on old data from OSHA where they looked for permanent threshold shifts of 10db or more at 2000, 3000, or 4000 Hz. As we know now, you can have fairly significant auditory damage without having a permanent threshold shift in those three ranges. There is also a lot of industry push-back when OSHA tries to make safety guidelines more strict (I haven't seen this with noise levels, but I have seen it with chemical safety guidelines). Moreover, it's very likely that some people are more genetically predisposed to hearing damage than others.

What I'm getting at here is I agree with you that some people really do go overboard with hearing protection, and obsessing about noise is not healthy, but it irritates me when people adopt this attitude of "well it works for me therefore it must work for you" or "it's safe for me therefore it's safe for you". No one can say that.

I tried to wear some ear plugs while I was at the gym because I was afraid the clashing of the dumb bells was going to hurt my ears.

However, after working out twice I now have these two low frequency tones that feel like they are fighting over who should be playing every waking second. I can't quite figure out their pitches because they keep tag teaming, but it's much lower than my regular tinnitus.

I'm kind of distressed because I feel like I can never workout again for fear of making my tinnitus worse. What should I do?

I was told not to wear hearing protection for normal everyday situations but look where it's got me. I had my plugs in my pocket too. Getting on with a normal life hasn't helped for me.

" iwholovemusic " had a spike for about 2 years after loud event . I remember he had posted this about 2-3 years ago .
He was also wearing ear plugs and ear muffs !

It's been passed 3 month mark and I still have this annoying spike, the ear pain is gone but the spike remained.

Yes. I have Noise induced T. My spike was due to going out to a bar/day drinking/brewery/lots of alcohol. Since that day my T has been screaming.

No live loud music, just a restaurant and a lot of people in it.

TS tells it like it is.

For my part, I'm ramping up the paranoia.

I never leave my home without foam earplugs inserted. I was caught by fireworks a couple of weeks ago. As I went into a middle-sized grocery store, there was a loud bang on the outside. The building should have offered some protection and the same goes for the earplugs. When I was outside the store and walking away, there was a second bang, but then I had put on my Peltor Optime Earmuffs III on top of the plugs. Even though I'd been taking steps to protect myself, there's no guarantee that it was enough. I may have damaged my ears further. But what if I had taken the fireworks unprotected?

If it's dark outside and cold enough to carry a hooded jacked, I ALWAYS use both earplugs and earmuffs if I go outside. I can't walk around with earmuffs in the small village where I live during the summer months, because it attracts to much attention. But as soon as I travel to a city, I carry double protection even if it's too hot outside to conceal the earmuffs beneath a hood.

A problem I haven't solved is that kids sometimes play with fireworks in the green area next to my house. I'm trying to be disciplined enough to carry earmuffs inside during the dark hours. Better to make a habit of it before I suffer yet another permanent worsening. Unfortunately, my glasses messes up the seal, but some protection is better than none.

Social events? Fuck. that.
Sooner or later, there will be a balloon popping, someone screaming, or whatever.

Living with T if you've experienced it getting worse, is stone-cold hell. Your life is a cage of fear and most of what can be called meaning is shattered. Trying to live a normal life will, with some bad luck, bring you back to the angst pit as you suffer yet another accidental setback.

I can't believe that I ended up in this reality of ash. Not much point in denying it, though. Accepting the state of affairs makes it a bit easier to endure, as I wait for my final departure. Until then, I'm going to protect my ears as much as I can manage. There's nothing worse than getting caught by loud noises flatfooted, nothing.

My T faded a lot suddenly almost 3 years ago. I had total remission of some trebly sounds in my head. It became only audible in quiet rooms.

Now its back in full force cause Im stupid. Some ENT told me ear plugs are safe. Wrong! T is with me again.

I hope you will learn from other people's mistakes.

Check out the thread below where I summarize everything (27 tips) I learned about managing tinnitus after reading the posts on this forum for the past year.
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...eone-else-who-has-tinnitus.26850/#post-307822

 

[Bill Bauer]

I enjoy the way people use this oxymoron in here

Are you talking about stuff like the underlined text below?

I tried the 'laissez faire' approach for that first period, where I didn't let myself be bothered by most sounds, except for 80db+ (when I started plugging the ears) and still went out and did all my old activities, but that ended up costing me dearly. I had a 'spike' (if it can still be called that) that hasn't gone away.

 

[Jason37]

Well I guess the only option in life now is to sit in the living room, not work, stay away from every space but a park, no friends because talking is to loud, ask my family to move out because my kids are to loud, not drive a car because there could be a crash or road noise, live in a jungle because you can't mow with an electric mower....and all while not having sex because it to loud as well and a baby is to big of noise risk, and never visit a reastaurant again because ear plug don't work at all and are also to risky. So what we have here is a life sentence of anxiety and fear I guess. WTF ever...I'm so sure Bill shattner, Clinton, Reagan, Chris Martin, sat or are sitting on the sidelines of life. Oh wait....they were/are presidents, movie and rock stars. I'm sure as s$&@ they were in 85 db environments almost everyday.

 

[fishbone]

Well I guess the only option in life now is to sit in the living room, not work, stay away from every space but a park, no friends because talking is to loud, ask my family to move out because my kids are to loud, not drive a car because there could be a crash or road noise, live in a jungle because you can't mow with an electric mower....and all while not having sex because it to loud as well and a baby is to big of noise risk, and never visit a reastaurant again because ear plug don't work at all and are also to risky. So what we have here is a life sentence of anxiety and fear I guess. WTF ever...I'm so sure Bill shattner, Clinton, Reagan, Chris Martin, sat or are sitting on the sidelines of life. Oh wait....they were/are presidents, movie and rock stars. I'm sure as s$&@ they were in 85 db environments almost everyday.

That's not life, that's just existing. Tinnitus can change the rules a little in life, but it doesn't stop us from living. Fear mongering and nonsense can stop one, from still enjoying this amazing life. Protect your ears and enjoy your life, both are very possible.

 

[Jason37]

@fishbone That's what I was implying...being sarcastic.

 

[Gman]

That's not life, that's just existing. Tinnitus can change the rules a little in life, but it doesn't stop us from living. Fear mongering and nonsense can stop one, from still enjoying this amazing life. Protect your ears and enjoy your life, both are very possible.

But finding the right balance between protecting ones ears and enjoying life is not a simple thing. I know from experience, sounds well under 85db can aggravate things and even worsen them. Whether it's volume and/or frequency, I don't know. I still do not use ear protection too much to avoid ear sensitivity. I just try to minimise being in loud places yet still expose to normal sounds, but it's not working for me. I can say I can almost totally rule out anxiety from noise in most situations unless there's a really sudden unexpected sound. I've taught myself to suppress my startle response and be apathetic to sound as much as possible, but it doesn't matter.

 

[fishbone]

But finding the right balance between protecting ones ears and enjoying life is not a simple thing. I know from experience, sounds well under 85db can aggravate things and even worsen them. Whether it's volume and/or frequency, I don't know. I still do not use ear protection too much to avoid ear sensitivity. I just try to minimise being in loud places yet still expose to normal sounds, but it's not working for me. I can say I can almost totally rule out anxiety from noise in most situations unless there's a really sudden unexpected sound. I've taught myself to suppress my startle response and be apathetic to sound as much as possible, but it doesn't matter.

I can tell you this much, I never had a simple thing or procedure. Was never taught, how to have a simple life and never had one. Yes, it's a trial and error thing(always be careful with your ears). Trying to find the right mix, that makes our lives better. It's not easy, I agree with you, but in time you can find what WORKS for you and your situation. Just gotta keep trying and you'll figure it out...

 

[Ed209]

live in a jungle

Gotta pick you up on that one bud. What if a tiger roars! And more to the point: what if the tiger eats you? That's got to be bad for your ears

It is certainly the right approach you have there though. If you use the safety protocol and stay home, just be sure to turn the tv off (it can reach 60db). Don't make any food because that will also be too loud (over 60db and possibly 70db to 80db +). Stay away from any doors; one might close on you. Don't open any windows as the wind might be a problem; there can be some windy days that will be a risk. Don't wash yourself as the shower is too loud and getting in and out of the bath poses the threat of spikes as well (70db +). As you rightly said, don't have conversations as they can also reach 60db to 70db. Don't have any kids or at least put any kids you have up for adoption, immediately, as they are very dangerous. Don't wash your clothes as the washing machine is another hazard waiting around the corner along with your vacuum cleaner and other cleaning implements. I recommend living in filth as it will keep your ears a lot healthier and there's no risk of any spikes.

If you do venture outside of the house be extremely careful. Literally anything can go above 60db and you'll frequently hear sounds above 70db. Stay well away from a job because you'll likely need a car and that's not really recommended. Public transport is also a huge no no, that can be louder than a car. I recommend walking everywhere from now on. This may build up a nice sweat, so you better get used to stinking because as stated earlier, the washing machine is too loud to be used safely. Don't be so sure that the parks are safe. You will find that there's dog walkers (dogs are another threat) and there's also the possibility of lots of children. If your destination involves walking near any roads then you better cancel your trip as it's just too risky.

Finally, and this is very important, don't socialise ever again. Socialising is just far too dangerous. There's conversation, the possibility of a bar or two, and maybe even a trip to the cinema! There's a very real risk that you may have fun, and for the love of god, don't do that! Fun is dangerous.

To close my statement, I'd like to add that earplugs are useless at protecting you against all of these hazards, and I have access to many threads and posts to prove this beyond doubt. Good luck!

 

[Gman]

(always be careful with your ears)

Isn't that what @Bill Bauer is saying, only in a more cautious way? Who is to say what is right or wrong? Erring on the side of caution is better than living with regret.
Lots of contradictory advice flying around.

I should probably wear ear protection more often, because things aren't "fading with time" like some people say they will, even though I stay away from the 'approved' list of loud places to avoid without ear protection. Maybe I should follow @Ed209's post

 

[Ed209]

Maybe I should follow @Ed209's post

It's the winning formula Gman and comes highly recommended

 

[Tinker Bell]

Gotta pick you up on that one bud. What if a tiger roars! And more to the point: what if the tiger eats you? That's got to be bad for your ears

It is certainly the right approach you have there though. If you use the safety protocol and stay home, just be sure to turn the tv off (it can reach 60db). Don't make any food because that will also be too loud (over 60db and possibly 70db to 80db +). Stay away from any doors; one might close on you. Don't open any windows as the wind might be a problem; there can be some windy days that will be a risk. Don't wash yourself as the shower is too loud and getting in and out of the bath poses the threat of spikes as well (70db +). As you rightly said, don't have conversations as they can also reach 60db to 70db. Don't have any kids or at least put any kids you have up for adoption, immediately, as they are very dangerous. Don't wash your clothes as the washing machine is another hazard waiting around the corner along with your vacuum cleaner and other cleaning implements. I recommend living in filth as it will keep your ears a lot healthier and there's no risk of any spikes.

If you do venture outside of the house be extremely careful. Literally anything can go above 60db and you'll frequently hear sounds above 70db. Stay well away from a job because you'll likely need a car and that's not really recommended. Public transport is also a huge no no, that can be louder than a car. I recommend walking everywhere from now on. This may build up a nice sweat, so you better get used to stinking because as stated earlier, the washing machine is too loud to be used safely. Don't be so sure that the parks are safe. You will find that there's dog walkers (dogs are another threat) and there's also the possibility of lots of children. If your destination involves walking near any roads then you better cancel your trip as it's just too risky.

Finally, and this is very important, don't socialise ever again. Socialising is just far too dangerous. There's conversation, the possibility of a bar or two, and maybe even a trip to the cinema! There's a very real risk that you may have fun, and for the love of god, don't do that! Fun is dangerous.

To close my statement, I'd like to add that earplugs are useless at protecting you against all of these hazards, and I have access to many threads and posts to prove this beyond doubt. Good luck!

I had to double check twice that this was a satire post by you and not an actual post by Bill. You nailed much of his views after . . . and before . . . tinnitus. Honestly, that is why I cannot give much credence to his views. Even before tinnitus, Bill lived a life avoiding much of what people enjoy based on faulty risk analysis.

That's the annoying part of anxiety, you do not realize that it is controlling your behavior when you're in the thick of it.

 

[Ed209]

I had to double check twice that this was a satire post by you and not an actual post by Bill. You nailed much of his views after . . . and before . . . tinnitus. Honestly, that is why I cannot give much credence to his views. Even before tinnitus, Bill lived a life avoiding much of what people enjoy based on faulty risk analysis.

That's the annoying part of anxiety, you do not realize that it is controlling your behavior when you're in the thick of it.

And to be clear, I wish Bill no ill will. I just cannot fathom how others can be expected to follow his advice without having a nervous breakdown.

 

[Zug]

What @Ed209 said.

Live your life. Protect your ears when everyone else should be doing it.

It isn't that hard, really.

Best,
Zug

 

[Tinker Bell]

And to be clear, I wish Bill no ill will. I just cannot fathom how others can be expected to follow his advice without having a nervous breakdown.

Absolutely agree.

Given the relationship between the limbic system and tinnitus, a nervous breakdown and living in a heightened state of anxiety is not the solution for decreasing tinnitus. It's more likely to do the oppposite.

 

[Gman]

Absolutely agree.

Given the relationship between the limbic system and tinnitus, a nervous breakdown and living in a heightened state of anxiety is not the solution for decreasing tinnitus. It's more likely to do the oppposite.

True, but only if it makes people feel anxious doing that.

But also having T and other relatedness things worsen over time definitely can also heighten anxiety, which in turn can make it worse and quite possibly lead to a nervous breakdown and worse in some cases. It's a vicious circle.

Doing what works for oneself to feel calm should be up to the individual. If that is protecting more than other people, then so be it.

 

[Julien87]

This thread is Gold

 

[SugarMagnolia]

Also for discussion: since I have T from noise exposure, do the "safe volume exposure levels" differ from a healthy individuals'? Workplace safety dictates that 85db is the loudest an environment can be for 8 hours of unprotected exposure, but for us who have been previously damaged by noise, are even these "safe" volume levels too much for our ears?

This is what I want to know. So far, I haven't found a definitive answer.