No, I'm saying FX-322 causes new cells to grow - both supporting cells and hair cells - with supporting/progenitor cells used a source. Audion does the same, by turning supporting cells into something they're not.
Frequency Therapeutics — Hearing Loss Regeneration
- Thread starter RB2014
- Start date
MemberI thought it went like this:
Audion causes the supporting cell to grow new hair cells, which depletes supporting cells.
FX-322 first divides the supporting cells and then causes some of them to grow new hair cells, which preserves supporting cell numbers.
What am I missing here?
- Aug 28, 2019
- 1,496
- Tinnitus Since
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- Cause of Tinnitus
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As a non scientist, can you tell me why it matters if REGAIN depletes the supporting cells?
When are they both projected to hit the shelves?
That with FX-322 the new hair cells cells don't go through the phase of being supporting cells first.
Most of the stuff that's coming out the next few hears need supporting cells to work. If you deplete your supporting cells with drug X, a future drug Y that also needs supporting cells might be less effective. We don't know that for sure. The other reason is we don't quite know what kind of role supporting cells play in the inner ear, so depleting them might have unwanted consequences. Again, that's what they're still trying to figure out. Lots of stuff we don't know.
This goes over functions of inner ear supporting cells:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3648608/
I can't answer your second question.
Aleksa Uzunovic
Member
- Apr 2, 2019
- 43
- Tinnitus Since
- 2014
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Noise induced hearing loss
Well, it won't matter if REGAIN is able to cure severe or profound hearing loss. If it only helps a bit than it won't allow further treatments to the patients in the future to restore more of their hearing, that would be a problem. Hopefully AUDION helps with hearing 100%.
In case your hair cells get damaged again, you can't regrow them through FX-322 or REGAIN again if the supporting cells are gone.
Not only that but the supporting cells may be required for normal function of the hair cells so you may get less functional hair cells without the proper accompanying supporting cells.
Supporting cells help preserve the health and function of hair cells and seem to also assist in nerve conduction at the synapse level.
But they already are supporting cells though right? Aren't the new hair cells coming from existing supporting cells?
Ok. So aren't all of the new hair cells in the FX-322 method transdifferentiating from supporting cells?
- Aug 28, 2019
- 1,496
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As someone whose tinnitus came about from an adverse reaction to medication and was then worsened by an MRI, will the supporting cells have been damaged as well as the hair cells? I get the impression that an ototoxic reaction is about the worst thing that can happen to the hair cells, ie destroys them completely. Would I be right?
So it would be better to wait for FX-322? Are the two researches going along at the same speed? I hate to be pessimistic, but I keep thinking I will never get to try either of these drugs in my lifetime. I hope I am wrong of course.
- Aug 28, 2019
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But how likely is that? It would be great if it were true though.
If it's not a secret, which country are you in on your avatar photo? Looking at the buildings (and your name) a few have come to mind?
I think you might want to double check that. I'm pretty sure that the regenerated hair cells start off as supporting cells. I think the supporting cells are in fact the progenitor cells.
Dude/dudette, I share your concern about ototoxic drugs. They seem to just decimate hearing in ways few things can. Instantly losing my fully functioning hearing bilaterally and being launched into a world of distortion, muffled sounds, decreased clarity and much louder tinnitus (and hyperacusis initially) is by far the most traumatic thing that's ever happened to me.
((Hug)). I *completely* understand the hopelessness and the anxiety.
But, I do have hope. For one thing, one of the ways they test these drugs in lab animals is by inducing hair cell and ribbon synapse loss (etc) with ototoxic drugs.
Will this cure be in the next 5 years? I'm not sure. In my lifetime, I truly think so. And when I'm older, instead of wishing to be young again, i know i will cry of happiness every day to be alive with my hearing and music and peace and joy again.
Imagine 20 years ago. No one even talked about regenerative medicine. There is at least hope now.
In my case, i strongly suspect i have brain stem hearing loss, too, but even *then* i think they will tackle that with (better and more specific) potassium ion channel opening drugs, too. It's a matter of time. I really believe that.
I'm sorry that it's obviously so hard on you, @all to gain and everyone else who suffers so much with this. It will be our time again. Hang in there.
All technical details aside, what does it matter if the hair cells are still regenerated? I don't think (or hope) that we would need FX-322 + Regain, as long as FX-322 works as intended. If FX-322 doesn't work, then it probably didn't duplicate the support cells to begin with, for Regain to use anyways.
There's not that much research on supporting cells. They've gotten more attention once scientists figured out you can use them to regenerate hair cells. We do know two things:
1. Generally, the worse your hearing is, the greater the chance your supporting cells have also been affected. However, I found a paper that even with people who are (almost) deaf, there were still some supporting cells left. What they saw were cochleas that had areas with both 'flat epithelium' (no hair cells and supporting cells) and areas with supporting cells. One of the surprising things about the Phase 1/2 trial of FX-322, however, was that the 4 patients who responded best to the drug all had moderate-severe hearing loss. That goes against the theory that people with the most severe hearing loss are not the best candidates because they generally have the fewest supporting cells left. On the other hand, 4 people is such a small number you can't draw conclusions from that.
2. Supporting cells seem to stick around a long time after damage to the hair cells. I'm talking decades. That at least gives you a nice window of opportunity to get treatment, should that become available. And with regards to trying these drugs. Unless you're 80+ you'll probably get the chance to try one of these treatments. Something will come out the next 5-10 years. Audion Therapeutics is a bit further along than Frequency Therapeutics. Question is how well it will work. Don't expect a cure. Expect incremental improvement with each generation of drugs.
No. I need to know where I've been wrong. My understanding for over a year has been that FX-322 causes some supporting cells to divide while causing others to transdifferentiate into hair cells. You've been telling me I'm wrong but I don't think I am.
Just answer me, if the new hair cells don't start out as supporting cells then what do they start out as?
As a cell of course. Look at the image with 'mitosis' in it. With transdifferentation you lose a supporting cell because it becomes a hair cell. With mitosis, you don't. Mitosis is not dividing+transdifferentation.
HootOwl
Member
I just realized that they require tympanometry for their clinical trials. I guess this would have been a no go for me anyway, as I couldn't risk going through with it again.
I wanted to throw that out there to anyone who was possibly thinking of participating (and did not present tinnitus severe enough to be excluded or none at all), as I and many others on the forum had their tinnitus worsened this way.
I wanted to throw that out there to anyone who was possibly thinking of participating (and did not present tinnitus severe enough to be excluded or none at all), as I and many others on the forum had their tinnitus worsened this way.
Dude I'm not going to do this with you. This thread is already polluted enough with information that belongs in other threads as it is (of which I'm also guilty by the way). If you want to know the ins and outs of mitosis, ask a biologist.
Sorry for sounding stupid but what is a tympanometry? Is that where they test pressure of middle ear?
HootOwl
Member
Yes, they blast a split second of up to 90 decibel noise into the ear. The first time I had it done at age 18, no problem. The second time 10 years later, instant new tone right then and there in the office with the damn thing still in my ear. It's like MRIs. I had one tympanometry with no issue but others have come out so much worse that it's important to know the acoustic risks, especially for so-called "safe" procedures.
- Aug 28, 2019
- 1,496
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- Cause of Tinnitus
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You can test what kind of hearing loss you have (sensorineural or conductive), but not the cause. Of course, if you feel your hearing dropped after a certain event, it's likely that's what caused it. Presently there's no indication FX-322 is more or less effective for certain causes of sensorineural hearing loss.
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