Frequency Therapeutics — Hearing Loss Regeneration

Your wish is my command.

Consider him educated.

And yeah the point on KOL talk that they aren't sure about is if damaged hair cells see no benefit but are looking to the trial to inform is interesting, I'm hopeful but setting conservative expectations, though it makes sense to me that some benefit is possible dependent on degree of damage taken.

Thanks again to this community, really appreciate learning the science and psycho-somatic aspects to hearing science too.
 
I recall an article a while back confusing FX-322 as a "stem cell" treatment. I think the author mis-understood Frequency Therapeutics' description of progenitors being "stem cell like." I imagine it's happened more than once, since it's pretty difficult to get someone's head wrapped around progenitors in less than 2 minutes. So, now every once in a while FX-322 is now erroneously associated by the uninitiated as a stem cell treatment.
Honestly, beyond the fact that there is a difference in specificity, I don't really understand the difference between progenitors and stem cells in the abstract.

Nonetheless, I am going to pretend like I do in order to fit in. If there are snarky memes about this, I want to be on the elite side.
 
I recall an article a while back confusing FX-322 as a "stem cell" treatment. I think the author mis-understood Frequency Therapeutics' description of progenitors being "stem cell like." I imagine it's happened more than once, since it's pretty difficult to get someone's head wrapped around progenitors in less than 2 minutes. So, now every once in a while FX-322 is now erroneously associated by the uninitiated as a stem cell treatment.
There is a lot of misinformation about FX-322 being a stem cell treatment going around and also some individuals may get confused with the general language used in various scientific sources to explain what progenitor cells activation (PCA) is.

This is due to:

1. There is a lot of scientific literature (particularly targeted towards novices and laymen) which expressly states that progenitor cells are like stem cells and then proceeds to explain why they differ. Hence it would be fairly simple for one to mislabel or simply think that FX-322 is a stem cell treatment.

2. People label PCA based treatments as a stem cell treatment either due to ignorance (because they have heard about it and the person telling them about it incorrectly stated it was a stem cell treatment) or because people simply just decided to label them a stem cell treatment because they didn't actually bother to do any research into the working of FX-322 (hence what we have seen in the tweet @Diesel posted above).
 
Honestly, beyond the fact that there is a difference in specificity, I don't really understand the difference between progenitors and stem cells in the abstract.

Nonetheless, I am going to pretend like I do in order to fit in. If there are snarky memes about this, I want to be on the elite side.
You pretty much have it right. Progenitor cells are further along in the differentiation process.

In the context of that poll, though, it's *especially* wrong to call it a "stem cell treatment" because, thus far, those treatments (whether distally or locally injected) have all failed to incorporate into needed structures and the benefit was likely anti inflammatory from exosome release. The exception might be a new study where they incorporated stem cells into a monkey's retina by first severely immunosuppressing the monkey with high doses of organ transplant rejection drugs--on top of that, they picked an "immunogenically privileged site" (the eye) anyway--and injected directly adjacent to the retina under sedation.

This drug activates in situ progenitor cells. A huge difference.
 
Honestly, beyond the fact that there is a difference in specificity, I don't really understand the difference between progenitors and stem cells in the abstract.

Nonetheless, I am going to pretend like I do in order to fit in. If there are snarky memes about this, I want to be on the elite side.
In Aaron's words copy pasting this from another chat thread we had:

"1) Cell fate. Unlike stem cells, progenitor cells have a pre-determined cell "fate". If you watch the video, you learn that half of Will McLean's research was simply figuring out which progenitor cell becomes a hair cell (the LGR5 cell). Unlike a stem cell, a progenitor cell CANNOT become any other kind of cell.

2) Stem cell otology approaches in previous attempts over the years have failed because they did not have the right gene expression. The hair cells did not assimilate into colonies or "organise" themselves. This is what I mean when I say there is no "retrofitting" in the case of progenitor cells. If this was a pure stem cell approach I would not be touching this thing with a large bar pole.

3) Delivery. Progenitor cells are already there in the cochlea. It's really, really difficult to deliver a stem cell to the cochlea even if you could make it integrate.

4) Safety. Stem cells always run the risk of uncontrolled proliferation and therefore cancer. All the pre-clinical data suggests that progenitor cells have a self-limitation to their proliferation, in line with how they proliferate in utero during development. Once there are enough hair cells, the regeneration stops. I even remember reading somewhere that they gave FX-322 to healthy cochlea mice and fuck all happened. It's not as if the mice got super-sonic hearing or something. Literally nothing happened."​
 
I even remember reading somewhere that they gave FX-322 to healthy cochlea mice and fuck all happened. It's not as if the mice got super-sonic hearing or something. Literally nothing happened."
I don't remember ever specifically reading that. Do you remember where you found it?

That would make this drug extremely safe to "trial treat" with since diagnostics are so limiting.
 
You pretty much have it right. Progenitor cells are further along in the differentiation process.

In the context of that poll, though, it's *especially* wrong to call it a "stem cell treatment" because, thus far, those treatments (whether distally or locally injected) have all failed to incorporate into needed structures and the benefit was likely anti inflammatory from exosome release. The exception might be a new study where they incorporated stem cells into a monkey's retina by first severely immunosuppressing the monkey with high doses of organ transplant rejection drugs--on top of that, they picked an "immunogenically privileged site" (the eye) anyway--and injected directly adjacent to the retina under sedation.

This drug activates in situ progenitor cells. A huge difference.
I think there's an unfortunate tendency for people to think "regenerative medicine" is synonymous with "stem cells", which probably adds to the confusion.
 
I knew Frequency Therapeutics would drag their ass with releasing the results... They will make us wait until the last day of the month... Just to say that they technically released them in March.
 
I even remember reading somewhere that they gave FX-322 to healthy cochlea mice and fuck all happened. It's not as if the mice got super-sonic hearing or something. Literally nothing happened."​
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I don't remember ever specifically reading that. Do you remember where you found it?

That would make this drug extremely safe to "trial treat" with since diagnostics are so limiting.
I'm going to have a look again as I don't remember the exact source. In any case, it would make sense to me because a limiting factor is the number of neurons that can connect to hair cells. It's also implied by their pre-clinical work. If they were worried about safety in this respect, they wouldn't be treating even mild ears, as surely you would run the risk of "over-treating". But I'll try and find the source and get back to you guys. Bed time for me.
 
I haven't had the time to analyse the available data as I once would have done, but it's interesting to see a (sort of) optimistic outlook on here. I've only read a few of the posts, but it seems most are more positive than not.

My take on it is that it has to offer a beneficial therapeutic outcome. It could objectively work, but to what degree? How much will it change people's lives? A small increase in hearing that is either not noticeable, or that is negligible to the patient, would be disappointing. But, it could be the starting point of something bigger if there are ways to refine it. A complete failure to work on any level would be a disaster.

It will be interesting to see how it affects those tinnitus.
Yeah - it's mostly optimistic and positive and interesting - by pretty far.
Your take is interesting as well. I like the content - if not the message.

A negligible increase in hearing will be ultimately disappointing. But I'll wait to worry about that until after it's in me.

A small increase in hearing that is noticeable is actually asking for a damn lot from a medication.

But there's people here who are not having a hard time believing it's probably happening. I won't shoot them if they are wrong.

Almost everybody's ears here are horrifically sensitive in one way or the other.
My take is that you are going to notice this medication Ed - and any tinnitus relief is going to be interesting all right.

Glad you are hanging in there old boy.
 
I'm going to have a look again as I don't remember the exact source. In any case, it would make sense to me because a limiting factor is the number of neurons that can connect to hair cells. It's also implied by their pre-clinical work. If they were worried about safety in this respect, they wouldn't be treating even mild ears, as surely you would run the risk of "over-treating". But I'll try and find the source and get back to you guys. Bed time for me.
In my opinion that is why they biased the Phase 1b trial to be 2:1 ratio of mild severity vs moderate severity SNHL.

And yeah the stem cell confusion is serious. One of my buddies I discuss biotechs with had the same confusion and he's a very intelligent guy, so the confusion is wide spread.

I sincerely hope after Phase 2a data goes well, that FREQ spends 20M on an education campaign for awareness and understanding because this is going to hold back patients from wanting to try it also because of the misunderstood nature of stem cells and potential conflict with personal religious beliefs/safety concerns/fear of unknown etc.

It's ironic given the reality is so benign
 
The study will likely yield positive results. The reason I'm bearish here — and literally all in — is the fact that Frequency Therapeutics cherry-picked its participants. A lot of us — me included — tried to get in on this phase of the study but were told we did not meet criteria — which we kinda did based on the published inclusion/exclusion criteria.

I think a lot of us here have come to the conclusions that our word recognition scores were too good to make the cut. And if you look at Frequency Therapeutics' Twitter page, they are also all in on the signal they found in phase Ia w/ better word recognition scores especially in those with really bad word recognition scores with all the Tweeting about "clarity" and "intelligibility in sound". I honestly hope they find a signal in terms of improved dB in upper range say between 6 kHz - 8 kHz; but I'm banking, literally, on them finding the signal in the recognition scores again (since the rigged the deck with participant selection) that they seemed to be playing up a lot to move us into Phase 3. The tinnitus relief will likely wait for a bigger, better powered Phase 3 study outside of anecdotal evidence and p-trending.
 
The reason I'm bearish here — and literally all in — is the fact that Frequency Therapeutics cherry-picked its participants. A lot of us — me included — tried to get in on this phase of the study but were told we did not meet criteria — which we kinda did based on the published inclusion/exclusion criteria.

I think a lot of us here have come to the conclusions that our word recognition scores were too good to make the cut. And if you look at Frequency Therapeutics' Twitter page, they are also all in on the signal they found in phase Ia w/ better word recognition scores especially in those with really bad word recognition scores with all the Tweeting about "clarity" and "intelligibility in sound". I honestly hope they find a signal in terms of improved dB in upper range say between 6 kHz - 8 kHz; but I'm banking, literally, on them finding the signal in the recognition scores again (since the rigged the deck with participant selection) that they seemed to be playing up a lot to move us into Phase 3. The tinnitus relief will likely wait for a bigger, better powered Phase 3 study outside of anecdotal evidence and p-trending.
Did you mean to say "Bullish" here?
 
The study will likely yield positive results. The reason I'm bearish here — and literally all in — is the fact that Frequency Therapeutics cherry-picked its participants. A lot of us — me included — tried to get in on this phase of the study but were told we did not meet criteria — which we kinda did based on the published inclusion/exclusion criteria.

I think a lot of us here have come to the conclusions that our word recognition scores were too good to make the cut. And if you look at Frequency Therapeutics' Twitter page, they are also all in on the signal they found in phase Ia w/ better word recognition scores especially in those with really bad word recognition scores with all the Tweeting about "clarity" and "intelligibility in sound". I honestly hope they find a signal in terms of improved dB in upper range say between 6 kHz - 8 kHz; but I'm banking, literally, on them finding the signal in the recognition scores again (since the rigged the deck with participant selection) that they seemed to be playing up a lot to move us into Phase 3. The tinnitus relief will likely wait for a bigger, better powered Phase 3 study outside of anecdotal evidence and p-trending.
That makes sense given the hidden WR deficit requirement to participate in the trial.

I'm really curious how they use WR deficit, if they use WR quiet or WIN or an average or needs both to have deficit.

Very interesting signal, I am unsure if this means no tinnitus participants in study, I don't think they would recruit 95 people and have a TFI secondary endpoint if it wasn't possible to get signal on that, but I do agree it's more likely we'll see stat sig signal in the Phase 3 trial or even a special tinnitus focused trial since right now it's just an exploratory endpoint for knowledge/learnings I believe (i.e. they don't know but are hoping for a miracle that it does benefit given the anecdotal feedback).
 
That makes sense given the hidden WR deficit requirement to participate in the trial.

I'm really curious how they use WR deficit, if they use WR quiet or WIN or an average or needs both to have deficit.

Very interesting signal, I am unsure if this means no tinnitus participants in study, I don't think they would recruit 95 people and have a TFI secondary endpoint if it wasn't possible to get signal on that, but I do agree it's more likely we'll see stat sig signal in the Phase 3 trial or even a special tinnitus focused trial since right now it's just an exploratory endpoint for knowledge/learnings I believe (i.e. they don't know but are hoping for a miracle that it does benefit given the anecdotal feedback).
I think they will definitely have enough tinnitus patients considering the age-related cohort was in another trial and >90% of people with SSNHL have tinnitus:

Sudden Sensorineural Hearing Loss; Prognostic Factors
 
So... if they cherry-picked the most likely subjects to give positive results, the results are really only applicable to people who meet the same selective criteria.

How's the FDA going to view that? And on different but kind of related tack, if the results are positive, investors are going to make decisions unaware (most of them) that the subject pool may not be representative of the general hearing loss population (the hundreds of millions that we were told had an 'unmet need').

I throw that over to the hive mind.
 
Guess I will have to have the extended audiogram then.

Thanks for the answers everyone. I don't feel so down anymore. We will see what the audiogram shows.
Have you checked the pitch of your own tinnitus using any kind of tone generating software? If so, does it sound similar to a 4 kHz tone, or is it much higher? My hunch, as many others suspect too, is that the pitch of your tinnitus would correspond to the area where you need the treatment.
 
So... if they cherry-picked the most likely subjects to give positive results, the results are really only applicable to people who meet the same selective criteria.

How's the FDA going to view that? And on different but kind of related tack, if the results are positive, investors are going to make decisions unaware (most of them) that the subject pool may not be representative of the general hearing loss population (the hundreds of millions that we were told had an 'unmet need').

I throw that over to the hive mind.
Frequency Therapeutics had their initial results peer reviewed. Also, Frequency Therapeutics have been very honest (it's a matter of law) to investors who all have access to their information.

Strict criteria are normal for biotechs. They're also doing a separate part of the trial for age-related hearing loss.

If they're going to sell a treatment for hearing loss, the FDA are very strict they are selling something that has proven efficacy and safety.

The FDA are the gatekeepers to their success and also to patients protection.

Moving on, when is everybody expecting data? I'm hoping Monday with good news to be announced!
 
So... if they cherry-picked the most likely subjects to give positive results, the results are really only applicable to people who meet the same selective criteria.

How's the FDA going to view that? And on different but kind of related tack, if the results are positive, investors are going to make decisions unaware (most of them) that the subject pool may not be representative of the general hearing loss population (the hundreds of millions that we were told had an 'unmet need').

I throw that over to the hive mind.
I hope this clarifies your concerns:

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So... if they cherry-picked the most likely subjects to give positive results, the results are really only applicable to people who meet the same selective criteria.

How's the FDA going to view that? And on different but kind of related tack, if the results are positive, investors are going to make decisions unaware (most of them) that the subject pool may not be representative of the general hearing loss population (the hundreds of millions that we were told had an 'unmet need').

I throw that over to the hive mind.
There are two points to unpack here. The first point is one on efficacy and FDA approval, your other point has to do commercialisation risk.

On your first point: the FDA will view it quite favourably, in fact. Remember, half the bear thesis (not put forward by bears, but by bulls with concerns) is that Frequency Therapeutics may not be able to successfully "cherry-pick" the population well enough to produce statistically significant results that will allow them to move on to Phase 3 in the first place. The FDA are not asking:

"Does this drug treat hearing loss of any and every kind and can that be shown at a statistically significant level in all groups"?

Instead, they are asking:

"Does this drug treat hearing loss for at least some kind of population at a statistically significant level in any group"?

Just because there is an unmet need in all groups doesn't mean a drug won't be approved only because it still meets some kind of unmet need.

There's also a wider point to be made here and that is people can get really, really bogged down in the maths sometimes, especially the bears. Just because there were 6/15 "responders" doesn't mean those 9 other patients didn't experience some kind of quality of life improvement that wasn't necessarily reflected in WR/WIN/audiogram tests. As Frequency Therapeutics have said in their KOL presentation, just a 10% improvement can translate to a huge quality of life improvement. A case in point here is Sarepta and their DMD drug Exondys 51 (thanks to @FGG for bringing this to my attention). If I remember correctly, the drug could only be used in 14% of cases of DMD and if you looked at the maths and trial design even their results could have been described as somewhat spurious, especially compared to Frequency Therapeutics. And yet when you looked at patient testimonies and how the drug translated to real life, you had examples such as the one @FGG described of a kid that should have been in a wheelchair but was skiing! So all this to say that quality of life improvement as a measure is a real thing and that is, I suspect, one of the reasons why a secondary endpoint is the Quality of Life questionnaire just to cover all bases. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that in the event we do not see statistically significant improvements in the mild hearing loss category, that does not necessarily mean we won't see a statistically significant QoL improvement in that same category.

All this brings me to your second point about commercialisation risk. I think I speak for a lot of us here when I say that just because some of us may not fall within the group parameters that showed statistical significance, that doesn't mean we are not willing to try this drug when it gets to market. We shouldn't underestimate how far a person will go when they are desperate, particularly when their health is on the line. This thread is a case in point: over 500 pages of debate and research. I come back to a quote I quite like: "a healthy person has a thousand wishes, a sick person only one". Assuming this drug costs something in the region of a hearing aid (which only has a 25% uptake rate due to stigma/aesthetics/crudeness of technology/ineffectiveness with regards to clarity), I think most people with hearing loss of any kind would be willing to give that a shot.
I think they will definitely have enough tinnitus patients considering the age-related cohort was in another trial and >90% of people with SSNHL have tinnitus:

Sudden Sensorineural Hearing Loss; Prognostic Factors
I quite liked @Diesel's take on this. I think it's very plausible that a selection criterion could have been tinnitus in the treated ear and not the other. How difficult that would have been to recruit for though I have no idea, especially if we also assume the other boxes they would have wanted ticked, such as asymmetric hearing loss etc. I suppose it's possible though that if you have asymmetric hearing loss, chances are that if you unilateral tinnitus, it's more likely to be in the bad ear than the good ear.
 
So... if they cherry-picked the most likely subjects to give positive results, the results are really only applicable to people who meet the same selective criteria.

How's the FDA going to view that? And on different but kind of related tack, if the results are positive, investors are going to make decisions unaware (most of them) that the subject pool may not be representative of the general hearing loss population (the hundreds of millions that we were told had an 'unmet need').

I throw that over to the hive mind.
The FDA is probably on-board or even took part in recommending the recruiting strategy. As part of the Fast Track designation, they're more involved in these areas.

My own interpretation of the strategy is that they're able to show a population of the "worst" possible ears that FX-322 can treat, and how well they respond based on current clinical measures of hearing health. So, if the worse respond well, it stands to reason a milder cases should have a similar or better outcome.
 
So... if they cherry-picked the most likely subjects to give positive results, the results are really only applicable to people who meet the same selective criteria.

How's the FDA going to view that? And on different but kind of related tack, if the results are positive, investors are going to make decisions unaware (most of them) that the subject pool may not be representative of the general hearing loss population (the hundreds of millions that we were told had an 'unmet need').

I throw that over to the hive mind.
If you cherry pick word scores to eliminate the ceiling effect seen by a few in Phase 1 entirely (which is what we are talking about here), this doesn't say anything about the drug's effectiveness over the larger population.
 
I used to do research for a living at least part time. In smaller studies — like Phase 2s — you are not recruiting a lot of participants (typically). To find a signal in a smaller study — keep in mind Frequency Therapeutics found a signal in their Phase I study with speech recognition — you want to maximize effect size and limit your heterogeneity within the study population. They did this by — I think — picking subjects with the most to gain. My speech-in-noise is about 85%. Once you get above 90% or so you are approaching normal. If your speech-in-noise is 25 - 30%, you can see how much room there is to gain without approaching the envelope of normal (think asymptote) — like they saw in Phase I. I also wouldn't be surprised if they defined some composite endpoints too — like improved, audiogram + speech-in-noise. There is NOTHING wrong with this approach in a Phase 2 study. And it helps Frequency Therapeutics get an idea of where they're going to go in Phase 3 (which BTW the nurse recruiter told me to call back and reapply when it started) which will have a lot more subjects. The greater the number of subjects — as in a Phase 3 study — tend to limit heterogeneity between groups and makes the signal stand out from the noise.
 

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