Frequency Therapeutics — Hearing Loss Regeneration

[Ed209]

'Hypothesis based approach'. I don't know where you pulled that. If you were to ask us whether the earth is flat or ball-shaped, I bet we could produce evidence equally scientific and logical in support of both hypotheses. Since we're now doing a 'hypothesis based approach.

Exactly. At one point @JohnAdams posted a step-by-step method of his latest idea that could cure tinnitus that involved hanging upside down, putting a stent into one's eardrum, and then putting Carrageenan into one's middle ear. Now I know people are desperate, but you never know who is going to read that kind of stuff and actually follow through with it.



It's scary looking back how he was encouraged to do this kind of crap. Some people treated his posts as legitimate science.

but there is no point in a "told ya so" approach because we're all losers in the grand scheme of things with this involved - financially, mentally, physically etc

It's more of a warning of not getting one's hopes up based upon unproven methods of curing and/or treating tinnitus. However, it was so vitriolic back then that a told you so would be justified anyway.

 

[RingingBrother]

This may be one of the reasons why FX-322 failed?

Defective mechanosensory transduction of the new inner hair cells prevents hearing recover in the damaged cochlea

New IHCs but no hearing improvement.

FREQ scientists would have probably been able to figure out how to fix this if they hadn't laid them off and canceled the clinical trials.

Let's hope someone else can try it.

 

[Tau]

FREQ scientists would have probably been able to figure out how to fix this if they hadn't laid them off and canceled the clinical trials.

Let's hope someone else can try it.

They saw audiogram improvements in their animal models.

 

[KoolKat]

My problem is why don't these biotechs ever have any backup solutions, like how come when these clinical trials fail, THEY FAIL. Like for GOOD. Why is there "no, oh look, hold up, let me change this and that (a process takes less than 3 months) and get back on the horse."

What I'm saying is why don't they ever anticipate failures and have immediate back up plans.

Anyway, I'm out this thread for good. Bye bye.

 

[Damocles]

Exactly. At one point @JohnAdams posted a step-by-step method of his latest idea that could cure tinnitus that involved hanging upside down, putting a stent into one's eardrum, and then putting Carrageenan into one's middle ear. Now I know people are desperate, but you never know who is going to read that kind of stuff and actually follow through with it.

View attachment 53953

It's scary looking back how he was encouraged to do this kind of crap. Some people treated his posts as legitimate science.

It's more of a warning of not getting one's hopes up based upon unproven methods of curing and/or treating tinnitus. However, it was so vitriolic back then that a told you so would be justified anyway.

Lol, Ed!

Listen, if you want to talk bad about @JohnAdams when he's not here to defend himself, then that's you're right, and you should exercise it (but not really).

However, this post of his you're referencing is from MPP (the 4chan of Tinnitus Talk: whole point was to be more absurd/outrageous than the last person who posted; I find it hard to believe even you believe anyone would have taken anything posted in that thread seriously), so it's quite disingenuous of you to claim that @JohnAdams was pushing this as legit science.

Additionally, when he did make scientific posts outside of MPP that could be dangerous if tried, I think he pretty well explained it was purely hypothetical.

 

[scotty03874]

They saw audiogram improvements in their animal models.

FREQ is dead, why bother even talk about them.

I lost $30,000 in their stock drop. Screw them...!

 

[SmallRonnie]

My problem is why don't these biotechs ever have any backup solutions, like how come when these clinical trials fail, THEY FAIL. Like for GOOD. Why is there "no, oh look, hold up, let me change this and that (a process takes less than 3 months) and get back on the horse."

What I'm saying is why don't they ever anticipate failures and have immediate back up plans.

Anyway, I'm out this thread for good. Bye bye.

It's all about money. Each trial is extremely expensive and investors aren't going to keep throwing money at something that is repeatedly failing trials.

 

[Joeseph Stope]

FREQ scientists would have probably been able to figure out how to fix this if they hadn't laid them off and canceled the clinical trials.

Let's hope someone else can try it.

Oh dear! You're teasing us now. Like as if to say: "They would have cured tinnitus, old age, hearing loss, impotence... etc. etc. if they had not left out the one essential ingredient"... whatever that might be.

The main points are that they have called time out. Money all used up. And that the knowledge base, the know-how and expertise should get taken on by the research community so that with the next proposal the new people can "stand on the shoulders" of past research, to quote Isaac Newton, and that they may see a little further.

 

[GeraldHenders]

Oh dear! You're teasing us now. Like as if to say: "They would have cured tinnitus, old age, hearing loss, impotence... etc. etc. if they had not left out the one essential ingredient"... whatever that might be.

The main points are that they have called time out. Money all used up. And that the knowledge base, the know-how and expertise should get taken on by the research community so that with the next proposal the new people can "stand on the shoulders" of past research, to quote Isaac Newton, and that they may see a little further.

That is what is happening here hopefully:

Spiral Therapeutics Acquires Otonomy Assets to Boost Inner Ear Disorders Pipeline and Appoints Industry Leaders to Board

 

[VTae]

Why don't Frequency Therapeutics have the decency of at least open sourcing FX-322? That IP is worth shit. At least let other labs try it. I guess they also failed on the ethics trials.

 

[SmallRonnie]

Why don't Frequency Therapeutics have the decency of at least open sourcing FX-322? That IP is worth shit. At least let other labs try it. I guess they also failed on the ethics trials.

I love all the extremely nonsensical wishful thinking in these forums.

Why would any company just give away their IP for free when there's a chance to sell it?

So many opinions in these types of threads are based off emotion instead of logic.

 

[fletchermunson]

Would all of the FX-322 IP be owned by Astellas at this point?

 

[VTae]

I love all the extremely nonsensical wishful thinking in these forums.

Why would any company just give away their IP for free when there's a chance to sell it?

So many opinions in these types of threads are based off emotion instead of logic.

Well, good luck trying to sell their failed drug. Tesla open sources tech and algorithms (that are probably worth more than everything Frequency Therapeutics has combined) because they have confidence so they don't give a shit. Reminds me of the "ahh but people will steal my brilliant idea!" founder archetype. Pathetic.

 

[SmallRonnie]

Well, good luck trying to sell their failed drug. Tesla open sources tech and algorithms (that are probably worth more than everything Frequency Therapeutics has combined) because they have confidence so they don't give a shit. Reminds me of the "ahh but people will steal my brilliant idea!" founder archetype. Pathetic.

We live in a capitalist society. It is what it is.

 

[Artemis2K]

I love all the extremely nonsensical wishful thinking in these forums.

Why would any company just give away their IP for free when there's a chance to sell it?

So many opinions in these types of threads are based off emotion instead of logic.

A lot of people forget that 70% of the world aren't altruistic in nature.

 

[SmallRonnie]

A lot of people forget that 70% of the world aren't altruistic in nature.

A lot of it has to do with how desperate so many of us are for a miracle cure. I am guilty of it myself at times. It just clouds judgement.

At least that other company, Spiral Therapeutics, bought some of Otonomy's IP. The same could easily happen to FX-322.

There's no chance they're just going to give it away when they are already struggling for cash and on the brink of bankruptcy.

 

[IndyMLVC]

A lot of people forget that 70% of the world aren't altruistic in nature.

...100% of the US is. "We're #1!"

 

[RB2014]

Wow. I can't believe this is how it ends. I opened this thread 7 years ago with lots of hope but was always cautious after the previous failures. I lost faith after the audiograms didn't pan out, but always held out hope.

 

[d'Wooluf]

Why don't Frequency Therapeutics have the decency of at least open sourcing FX-322?

At least some of the IP was conditionally licensed to Frequency Therapeutics by MIT. It may possibly revert to them. I don't know.

Why would any company just give away their IP for free when there's a chance to sell it?

In this case, it was developed in university labs, funded by the taxpayer or charitable donations. That's one good reason. Assuming the IP is worth anything now.

Wow. I can't believe this is how it ends.

Should probably have left the last word to you. Sorry!

 

[Nick47]

Wow. I can't believe this is how it ends. I opened this thread 7 years ago with lots of hope but was always cautious after the previous failures. I lost faith after the audiograms didn't pan out, but always held out hope.

@RB2014, this is why we must allow constructive criticism to flow. I'm not talking about frustrated comments putting everything down with no basis to the argument. I'm talking about looking objectively at early findings. Out of desperation we sometimes allow the bar to be set so low.

We must also temper the expectations on XEN1011 or the other potassium channel modulators in my opinion. The theory is OK, but they are not in trial for tinnitus, none of them!

People tend to attach themselves to a piece of research and then become defensive when challenged. Instead we should welcome the challenge and encourage it.

With proper debate and people freely allowed to critique, this thread would likely have not got blown out of proportion. It has had five times the interest of a treatment (Dr. Shore's device) that is progressing to market with solid science and results.

 

[Ed209]

@RB2014, this is why we must allow constructive criticism to flow. I'm not talking about frustrated comments putting everything down with no basis to the argument. I'm talking about looking objectively at early findings. Out of desperation we sometimes allow the bar to be set so low.

We must also temper the expectations on XEN1011 or the other potassium channel modulators in my opinion. The theory is OK, but they are not in trial for tinnitus, none of them!

People tend to attach themselves to a piece of research and then become defensive when challenged. Instead we should welcome the challenge and encourage it.

With proper debate and people freely allowed to critique, this thread would likely have not got blown out of proportion. It has had five times the interest of a treatment (Dr. Shore's device) that is progressing to market with solid science and results.

I strongly agree, and this goes for all discussions. We are all guilty of letting our biases cloud our judgement from time to time, and not one person here or anywhere else is innocent of this. It's just human nature. This thread became very heated when someone had an alternative view, to the point that nobody wanted to hear anything other than praise for Frequency Therapeutics' work. That drove away all the objective thinkers and left a vacuous echo chamber with little merit to what was being said.

Without some form of pushback, it's very difficult to analyse the weight or significance of something that's being said. Good data and solid arguments stand up to scrutiny, and the scrutiny should be welcomed because it's what leads to a balanced debate with more robust ideas and outcomes.

If I had something that had the potential to change the world, and significant data to back up my claims, then I'd welcome all attempts to disprove/critique my evidence. It's what good scientists and objective thinkers thrive on.

 

[RB2014]

At least some of the IP was conditionally licensed to Frequency Therapeutics by MIT. It may possibly revert to them. I don't know.

Should probably have left the last word to you. Sorry!

I'm actually glad you are still around and it is good to hear from you.

@RB2014, this is why we must allow constructive criticism to flow. I'm not talking about frustrated comments putting everything down with no basis to the argument. I'm talking about looking objectively at early findings. Out of desperation we sometimes allow the bar to be set so low.

We must also temper the expectations on XEN1011 or the other potassium channel modulators in my opinion. The theory is OK, but they are not in trial for tinnitus, none of them!

People tend to attach themselves to a piece of research and then become defensive when challenged. Instead we should welcome the challenge and encourage it.

With proper debate and people freely allowed to critique, this thread would likely have not got blown out of proportion. It has had five times the interest of a treatment (Dr. Shore's device) that is progressing to market with solid science and results.

I just couldn't get excited over 5 dB when I am down 80 dB to 120 dB in most frequencies. Totally agreed with what you said though. Many people still clung to hope after the trials kept coming back disappointing. I was active in the Novartis thread before this and it dragged on for years with a similar outcome.

 

[Joeseph Stope]

I love all the extremely nonsensical wishful thinking in these forums.

Why would any company just give away their IP for free when there's a chance to sell it?

So many opinions in these types of threads are based off emotion instead of logic.

You might not realize this (or then again you might), but you could be willy-nilly castigating the method by which the knowledge revolution is going forward. In this particular case it's the academic - university - hospital method vs. the entrepreneur - private capital approach. This is by no means confined to medical matters. I'm sure you've noticed that there are three main operating systems/browsers: Microsoft & Edge, Apple & Safari and Linux & Mozilla Firefox. Oh yes! There's another one. Google Android, but I believe Android is based on the Unix model and so is Linux.

Many people here (including myself) are saying: "Hey You, Frequency Therapeutics! The least you could do is make your research and know-how open-source, so that Joe Soap and the volunteer/academic community can develop it, just like Linux was developed.

It doesn't take me to give the reply of the entrepreneur. There are much more articulate people on this thread than me.

I sure hope that there ain't no broken bones after this discussion. It's bound to get heated.

 

[Josh59]

Do you think that with the advancement of artificial intelligence, tinnitus treatments and research will progress further in the coming years?

In particular, the development of molecules such as FX-322 which could have helped us.

 

[JimmyStrong]

Do you think that with the advancement of artificial intelligence, tinnitus treatments and research will progress further in the coming years?

In particular, the development of molecules such as FX-322 which could have helped us.

Hopefully it does. I don't get why guys like Elon Musk want to put a 6 month ban on the development of AI though, but I guess if I leave my emotions aside and look at the long term, it might be to prevent jobs being taken over by AI. Maybe the dude just wants to put some safeguard over protecting people's jobs from AI. But yeah, all in all I do hope that AI speeds up research.

 

[@dam]

Do you think that with the advancement of artificial intelligence, tinnitus treatments and research will progress further in the coming years?

In particular, the development of molecules such as FX-322 which could have helped us.

Everyday it is seeming more obvious, that AI is going to beat humans to the ball at figuring out tinnitus (except perhaps Dr. Shore), hearing loss, basically everything. It's easy to go down the rabbit hole with AI. But the fact is, GPT4 is something else, and it's going to get better at an exponential rate.

For the majority of people who aren't familiar with the term A.G.I (Artificial General Intelligence), it is basically the benchmark to which an AI is on the same level as human intelligence or higher. The predicated time of achieving AGI is continuously being pushed forward.

The AI Revolution: The Road to Superintelligence

Regardless of tinnitus, this is a must read for everyone. This is what the future is shaping up to look like.

Once we can achieve AGI, intelligence is a cheap commodity that almost shares the same price as electricity. So you could simulate 100, 1,000, 10,000, 100,000, etc (scale indefinitely) top level researchers, that would quite easily solve every problem humanity has (tinnitus). AGI could potentially self-improve itself at an extremely fast pace. So then you could have 6 digit IQ simulated researchers and scientists.

I have more faith in that AI will be first, considering that hearing drugs are still years away.

 

[jaytee]

Does anyone know why the FX-345 pipeline was terminated, other than for investor concerns or available budgeting? I'm curious whether it was a matter of money, or a more fundamental reason to cast doubt on the concept of using small molecule drugs shown to stimulate progenitor cell activation in inner ear epithelial tissue as a cure to hearing loss.

 

[SmallRonnie]

Does anyone know why the FX-345 pipeline was terminated, other than for investor concerns or available budgeting? I'm curious whether it was a matter of money, or a more fundamental reason to cast doubt on the concept of using small molecule drugs shown to stimulate progenitor cell activation in inner ear epithelial tissue as a cure to hearing loss.

It was based off of the failed drug FX-322 so chances are it was also going to fail.

 

[patorjk]

Does anyone know why the FX-345 pipeline was terminated, other than for investor concerns or available budgeting? I'm curious whether it was a matter of money, or a more fundamental reason to cast doubt on the concept of using small molecule drugs shown to stimulate progenitor cell activation in inner ear epithelial tissue as a cure to hearing loss.

About 2 weeks before the FX-322's Phase 2b data release, the CEO retweeted these tweets:

I think this gives us the best insight into what he was thinking. Prior to knowing the results, the company probably drew out 2 paths forward:

1) Positive results: Push forward with FX-322 into Phase 3.
2) Negative results: Dump the hearing program completely ("fail fast") and focus on their MS drug.

Though if this is true, it kind of makes me wonder what the point of FX-345 was at all. I'm also left wondering if he knew the results when he made these retweets. I remember some people joking at the time that he had to be referring to B, as referring to A would be ridiculous, but maybe he was telegraphing his mind set prior to the data release.

 

[JPGL]

Scammers.