Headphones — White Noise Generators and Tinnitus

[dboy]

Proximity in itself means nothing. The volume is the only thing that counts, which decreases with distance. This is basic physics and subjective arguments and beliefs are worthless.

Could other characteristics of the sound count for nothing... eg. amplitude of peaks (as opposed to average volume)? I don't know the answer to this question, I am just curious since I could imagine a characteristic like that possibly being affected more by proximity/distance (peaks perhaps being damped by distance more than average volume/sound pressure?).

I'd want to see some evidence before making any categorical statements, but something about listening to music on headphones does make me a little uneasy. I mean the experience of it, rather than any preconception. I use them sometimes for attempts at neuromodulation or frequency finding, but have just felt a bit uneasy when I've put music on them. I know that is subjective, but I don't want to reject the subjective completely since science can change as new factors are taken into account. Just like in audiophilia more generally, I suspect that subjective impressions can tell us things that 'objective' measurements do not. But that is another argument for another place. Or not.

Generally speaking I agree that volume of sound at the point of hitting the eardrum is by far the most significant factor, however the sound is generated.

 

[dboy]

Just like in audiophilia more generally, I suspect that subjective impressions can tell us things that 'objective' measurements do not.

Just to clarify in case I am being confusing (writing on the fly) I am not suggesting magic so much as the limitations of knowing what to measure. My personal perspective for what little it is worth is that science is the best guide we have to physical reality, but that knowledge is never complete: always advancing and/or provisional.

P.S. One more question to any knowledgeable audiophiles out there: What about very high frequency energy (eg. >20kHz)? Is it likely that headphones would transmit more of that to the eardrum than a speaker without a supertweeter (higher frequencies are more directional after all)? Could that perhaps have negative effects on hearing? Again, I do not know the answer, I am just wondering out loud.

 

[Telis]

P.S. One more question to any knowledgeable audiophiles out there: What about very high frequency energy (eg. >20kHz)? Is it likely that headphones would transmit more of that to the eardrum than a speaker without a supertweeter (higher frequencies are more directional after all)? Could that perhaps have negative effects on hearing? Again, I do not know the answer, I am just wondering out loud.

This to me, makes the most sense. I think that a lot of the extreme highs are lost in open space vs headphones directing them straight into the ear. Sound pressure might be measured at the same level but listening in a open space a lot of the high frequencies will be missing by the time they reach the ear due to being canceled or redirected, maybe this gives the ear some breathing room? I don't know.

 

[glynis]

This as been an interesting thread...lots of love glynis

 

[dboy]

This to me, makes the most sense. I think that a lot of the extreme highs are lost in open space vs headphones directing them straight into the ear. Sound pressure might be measured at the same level but listening in a open space a lot of the high frequencies will be missing by the time they reach the ear due to being canceled or redirected, maybe this gives the ear some breathing room? I don't know.

Yes, it looks vaguely plausible to me. We don't even measure volume as such in these contexts... we make a subjective judgement of how loud it is. But sound energy above our upper threshold of hearing (which is low for a lot of us - I hear hardly anything over 12-12.5kHz) will be largely 'invisible' to us. We will not hear it, but it would presumably still add to the potential load on our auditory system.

I have no idea whether such high frequencies are any more damaging than lower ones. (Lower ones obviously contain more energy as they place a heavier load on an amplifier). I suspect that in normal life they tend to get attenuated as you describe, much as they do when listening with speakers at some distance/off axis. So if our auditory systems are not used to encountering them very much, and headphones supply them in abundance, then it is just possible they are a potential problem. It's a tentative hypothesis, I guess.

P.S. CD's only contain frequencies up to 22kHz (most MP3's lower), but with vinyl and digital files with a higher sampling frequency I think you would have higher frequencies represented, depending to some extent on the quality of components in your signal chain.

 

[Telis]

Yes, it looks vaguely plausible to me. We don't even measure volume as such in these contexts... we make a subjective judgement of how loud it is. But sound energy above our upper threshold of hearing (which is low for a lot of us - I hear hardly anything over 12-12.5kHz) will be largely 'invisible' to us. We will not hear it, but it would presumably still add to the potential load on our auditory system.

I have no idea whether such high frequencies are any more damaging than lower ones. (Lower ones obviously contain more energy as they place a heavier load on an amplifier). I suspect that in normal life they tend to get attenuated as you describe, much as they do when listening with speakers at some distance/off axis. So if our auditory systems are not used to encountering them very much, and headphones supply them in abundance, then it is just possible they are a potential problem. It's a tentative hypothesis, I guess.

P.S. CD's only contain frequencies up to 22kHz (most MP3's lower), but with vinyl and digital files with a higher sampling frequency I think you would have higher frequencies represented, depending to some extent on the quality of components in your signal chain.

Yeah I couldn't stand listening to any format that was compressed prior to T, now there is no way I could even hear the difference. Maybe squeezing the file down its less dangerous to the ear?

 

[dboy]

Maybe squeezing the file down its less dangerous to the ear?

I've no idea to be honest. I know the max. frequency a digital file can store is limited to half of the sampling frequency (hence CD can store up to 22kHz 'coz the sampling frequency is 44.1kHz). That is a slightly different thing to compression/bitrate. But I was only speculating about it maybe being a problem having high frequencies going directly into the ear. Just trying to think of plausible ways to explain the idea that headphones are more of a problem than speakers for some people. Which, of course, is not proven but seems to have some anecdotal support.

 

[dboy]

Would it perhaps be useful to add a poll to this thread? Something along the lines of "Has your tinnitus been caused or made permanently worse by listening to music on headphones at a low to moderate volume (not loud)? YES/NO."

I imagine this could be set up by @Michael Leigh or staff. If a few people say that it has then that would lend a lot of support to Michael's concerns. I think it would need to differentiate between a permanent increase and a temporary one though, since a temporary one could be down to some neuromodulating effect of the music rather than to any hearing damage. Also it would need to exclude listening at high volumes, since it is completely undisputed that this is dangerous.

It might be a way to try to get a handle on this fairly important topic?

Merry Christmas all!

 

[Jptsr1]

My constant tone T is in my left ear and my pulsatile is in my right intermittently. I wear one earbud every night playing my mask at low volume so maybe ill be a case study at some point.

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Jptsr1 If what you're doing with the earbud works for you that's fine. However, the best way to habituate to tinnitus is not to play audio through headphones, earphones, earbuds, directly into the ear as you drift off to sleep. The preferred method, is to provide sound enrichment. Using a sound machine, mp3 sound tracks or cds. Keeping the sound level below the tinnitus. Totally masking tinnitus (covering it up) with another sound will prevent the brain from habituating to the tinnitus. In other words, the brain cannot habituate to the tinnitus if it cannot hear it.
Michael

 

[Jptsr1]

@Jptsr1 If what you're doing with the earbud works for you that's fine. However, the best way to habituate to tinnitus is not to play audio through headphones, earphones, earbuds, directly into the ear as you drift off to sleep. The preferred method, is to provide sound enrichment. Using a sound machine, mp3 sound tracks or cds. Keeping the sound level below the tinnitus. Totally masking tinnitus (covering it up) with another sound will prevent the brain from habituating to the tinnitus. In other words, the brain cannot habituate to the tinnitus if it cannot hear it.
Michael

Just a suggestion but perhaps you should put "in my opinion" or "in my experience" somewhere in your post or link to some research supporting your statements?

 

[Koen]

My T is at 16khz. I was upgrading from mp3 to flac. After comparing dance music in expensive headphones too loud it started. I was especially comparing the high frequencies. Must have been new to my ears.

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Jptsr1 Thanks for the advice. It is in my experience it is better to provide sound enrichment rather that masking tinnitus. It is for this reason, when a person is fitted with white noise generators to help with tinnitus, they are advised by their hearing therapist to set the sound level below the tinnitus. Professor Pawel Jasterboff, developer of TRT (Tinnitus Retraining Therapy) talks about the use of sound enrichment for tinnitus in his book: TRT. There is also information here: http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/pages/205 on using sound therapy.
Hope this helps
Michael

PS: I didn't write the text below.

How to use sound enrichment
The aim of tinnitus therapy is to enable people to habituate to their tinnitus, so that it is 'filtered out' most of the time by the brain, even though it may still be present.

Habituation is probably best achieved if you use sound enrichment at a level that is a little quieter than your tinnitus most of the time. Some people have used masking (loud noise which drowns out the tinnitus) to give themselves a bit of relief, but this approach does nothing to encourage long term habituation, and sometimes the tinnitus appears louder when the masking is switched off.

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Koen You risk making your tinnitus worse, especially listening to audio through headphones at high volume. Do yourself some good and stop using them.

 

[Jptsr1]

@Jptsr1 Thanks for the advice. It is in my experience it is better to provide sound enrichment rather that masking tinnitus. It is for this reason, when a person is fitted with white noise generators to help with tinnitus, they are advised by their hearing therapist to set the sound level below the tinnitus. Professor Pawel Jasterboff, developer of TRT (Tinnitus Retraining Therapy) talks about the use of sound enrichment for tinnitus in his book: TRT. There is also information here: http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/pages/205 on using sound therapy.
Hope this helps
Michael

PS: I didn't write the text below.

How to use sound enrichment
The aim of tinnitus therapy is to enable people to habituate to their tinnitus, so that it is 'filtered out' most of the time by the brain, even though it may still be present.

Habituation is probably best achieved if you use sound enrichment at a level that is a little quieter than your tinnitus most of the time. Some people have used masking (loud noise which drowns out the tinnitus) to give themselves a bit of relief, but this approach does nothing to encourage long term habituation, and sometimes the tinnitus appears louder when the masking is switched off.

Thats loads better! I hope you don't take me wrong to be singling you out or questioning your motives (which absolutely seem to be an honest attempt to be helpful). In your original post you appeared to be stating your opinion as if it were fact. In the second one at least we can see that you are in fact just giving your honest opinion based on your experience and your interpretation of someone else's honest opinion (which by the way is much different than mine).

Even in your quoted text we see "probably", "most of the time" and "sometimes", which indicates that the suggested method may not be best or worst for all people. I would just hate for a person who is new to tinnitus and scared out of their minds to read a post of mine and come away thinking "oh my God, I'm doing it wrong" in reference to something that is giving them relief. Id be especially upset if what I directed them to do was in fact the wrong method for them.

 

[Jptsr1]

@Koen You risk making your tinnitus worse, especially listening to audio through headphones at high volume. Do yourself some good and stop using them.

Again....opinion not fact. Except the high volume part, on that we can agree.

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Jptsr1. Indeed, we learn from each other and thanks once again. Perhaps by trying sound enrichment in a different way, you will habituate to your tinnitus and hopefully it won't be as intrusive.
Michael

 

[Jptsr1]

@Jptsr1. Indeed, we learn from each other and thanks once again. Perhaps by trying sound enrichment in a different way, you will habituate to your tinnitus and hopefully it won't be as intrusive.
Michael

God I hope you are right! I would love to be rid of this but since I've been dealing with it almost all of my life my best hope is for just better. I've only had to change things up during spikes. Unfortunately I'm in the middle of one now but for the longest time it was rare that I needed a mask at all. Currently my process for sleep is to set my mask ever so slightly below my T and set my timer for one hour. That way I can actually get to sleep and after I'm out my subconscious can, as Ray Charles would say "make it do what it do". I use the same sounds at night that I so during the day (rain, trickling water, crickets). I haven't actually discovered a sound that blocks out my T completely and I've listened to thousands, but I have a handful that make it so I can sleep and or concentrate . The only difference for me during the night and day is during the day I play it over a bluetooth speaker and at night I use a single earbud. To be honest I'd play it over a speaker at night if it weren't for not wanting to disturb my wife.

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Jptsr1

God I hope you are right! I would love to be rid of this but since I've been dealing with it almost all of my life my best hope is for just better. I've only had to change things up during spikes. Unfortunately I'm in the middle of one now but for the longest time it was rare that I needed a mask at all.

I know where you are coming from for I've had tinnitus for 20 years. There is always hope of it improving so try not to give up. I would like to make another suggestion. (see I'm learning!) According to Professor Jasterboff and in the link that I pasted, it is mentioned to have sound enrichment playing throughout the night until morning, because the brain and auditory system never switches off, providing we haven't met our demise.

The idea is to keep the brain supplied with sound enrichment. In doing so, over time the tinnitus is pushed further into the background, making it less intrusive during waking hours. It is said, anyone with intrusive tinnitus and sleeps in a quiet room, the brain not hearing any external sounds, is capable of increasing its own background activity. In doing so it will also increase the tinnitus, making it more intrusive during the daytime.

I have used sound enrichment throughout the night for many years and found it to be helpful.
Michael

 

[Jptsr1]

@Jptsr1


I know where you are coming from for I've had tinnitus for 20 years. There is always hope of it improving so try not to give up. I would like to make another suggestion. (see I'm learning!) According to Professor Jasterboff and in the link that I pasted, it is mentioned to have sound enrichment playing throughout the night until morning, because the brain and auditory system is never switches off, providing we haven't met our demise.

The idea is to keep the brain supplied with sound enrichment and in doing so, over time the tinnitus is pushed further into the background, making the tinnitus less intrusive during waking hours. It is said, anyone with intrusive tinnitus and sleeps in a quiet room, the brain not hearing any external sounds, is capable of increasing its own background activity. In doing so it will also increase the tinnitus, making it more intrusive during daytime.

I have used sound enrichment throughout the night for many years and found it to be helpful.
Michael

Thats interesting. I would have thought the opposite would be true. Sort of like how you don't really feel a shirt on your back unless you think about it because its there so often your brain kind of blocks it out. I read somewhere that the brain blocks out most of the sensations that come in and actually only processes a small amount that are necessary for us to go about our business. I want to say the same article said that if it didn't handle sensory information in this manner we would go mad! So with the T, I figured if my brain had some time to listen to just that then it would become like the shirt on my back. Thats why I set my mask to turn off after i fall asleep. In the end though its never really dead quiet in my house. My wife snores, I have steam heat with a 60 year old furnace, we live a mile from a train and on a fairly busy road. I am intrigued by your idea though. I'll have to look into it more. Thanks!

Something else I do during the real bad times thats counter intuitive is set my mask so that its barely detectable. This works best with my cricket mask. I set my iPhone to its lowest volume (no headphones) and place it in my office or in my bedroom about 5 or 6 feet away then i listen for it. Making my brain struggle to hear the crickets really takes the edge off those bad days when my T just cant be masked. I'm sure I didn't invent this but I discovered it by accident and it was a breakthrough moment for me. Its when I realized that no one method was the right one and that I may need to change things up from time to time in order to get relief.

We need a tips and tricks section.

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Jptsr1

If you decide to try using sound enrichment throughout the night until morning, you might find it helpful. Some people use pillow speakers and others place a sound machine or equivalent sound source by the bedside.
Your idea of placing the masking sound in your room during the day is a good one, and it's something that I suggest people to do. I use sound enrichment 24/7. If I'm in the kitchen my radio is playing softly in the background. I have variable tinnitus, which can reach very severe levels, but I have still habituated. Hopefully your tinnitus will improve too.
All the best
Michael

 

[inadmin]

This question was one of the most important one i was seeking an answer for in the forum. Why? Because for some people like me masking is essential and gives a sense of control.

You find yourself often in quiet environments and then the T is very disturbing to say at least.

On a recent visit to to an ENT she looked at my ear bud and said that i need to stop using it. When i asked why, since it is playing at a very low volume, the answer was that "i am pushing the sound directly to the ear canal" without further explanation.

@Telis as far as I remember you're not masking- you're listening to music through headphones just for fun?

 

[Atlantis]

There's only one truth and that truth is that ear buds and headphones are safe as long as not played too loud.

COMMON SENSE PEOPLE!

 

[Michael Leigh]

@inadmin That truth only applies to people that don't have intrusive tinnitus! Inadmin, follow the advice of your ENT Dr and save yourself alot of misery.
Michael.

 

[Telis]

This question was one of the most important one i was seeking an answer for in the forum. Why? Because for some people like me masking is essential and gives a sense of control.

You find yourself often in quiet environments and then the T is very disturbing to say at least.

On a recent visit to to an ENT she looked at my ear bud and said that i need to stop using it. When i asked why, since it is playing at a very low volume, the answer was that "i am pushing the sound directly to the ear canal" without further explanation.

@Telis as far as I remember you're not masking- you're listening to music through headphones just for fun?

I do use cricket and other sounds to mask played on ear buds while watching tv. Seems to make my ears sore, but like you, I need some relief.

 

[ruben ruiz]

I agree with Telis. If a healthy person with sound ears listens to music on headphones does his hearing go bad? hardly!

 

[ruben ruiz]

I would rather hear something soft and slow than the the t.

 

[PaulBe]

I agree with Telis. If a healthy person with sound ears listens to music on headphones does his hearing go bad? hardly!

Maybe, but deterioration (in the music aficionado particularly) usually occurs progressively until the day the tipping point is reached. That's the point where you notice it, so "hearing going bad" should maybe be seen in wear and tear terms perhaps, rather than in acute injury terms. I like analogies. A good one may be the disc in the spine that erodes quietly over time while you work away lifting things, popping the occasional pain killer and having the occasional stretch, then one day....crack!!

 

[Sam Bridge]

Sorry if this sounds dumb but i am still not sure what qualifies as intrusive tinnitus? For me, if o am in a quiet room i will hear it, tv will dampen it out but not completely cover it. Music on low from speakers does cover it generally i would say. Outside in busy streets i cannot hear it.

 

[Telis]

Sorry if this sounds dumb but i am still not sure what qualifies as intrusive tinnitus? For me, if o am in a quiet room i will hear it, tv will dampen it out but not completely cover it. Music on low from speakers does cover it generally i would say. Outside in busy streets i cannot hear it.

Intrusive is when you hear it every waking minute over top of everything and it intrudes on everything that you do. You know, you can't mask it at all because your hearing is fucked, that kind of thing. I watch TV and my tinnitus is not just audible or a background sound, it's actually way louder than the TV, it seems my T screams above and and beyond, my ears just get painfully irritated when trying to listen. I can watch TV for a couple of hours until my ears are so worn out and sore that I can't take it any longer.

If the T hurts your head and ears because the volume is louder than anything you've ever heard for extended times before, this would be a good indicator as well. Like say if it were a real sound you would be concerned about going completely deaf listening to it for more than a minute or two.

My T is loud, front and center all the time, exterior sounds feel like background noise. I had moderate T at one time, it was the opposite, the T was the background noise, this was acceptable and I guess maybe considered average T and not intrusive, very easy to ignore or mask if I chose to do so. I could hang around noise and I was feeling pretty normal with my T disappearing into the background if I just ignored it. My T used to be like a florestent light buzzing, just turn on the TV and it's almost gone, or at least not as noticeable, that's non intrusive IMO.

Also, you may have other symptoms if your T is bad. While having moderate type T my ears felt healthy and normal. Since worsening T (more damage) my ears have gone haywire, extremely painful H, constant stabbing ear/head pain, fullness, dizziness, plus hearing coming and going all seem to be part of this package. I think these symptoms are very common with extremely intrusive tinnitus.