Hidden Hearing Loss — Lost Enjoyment of Music — Nerves

[Nick Pyzik]

Hello,

I posted quite a long introductory thread a bit about damage to the auditory nerve fibers and how it all relates to my hearing problems. It's been about 4 months since my headphone/smoke alarm incident. I had extremely loud Tinnitus 3 months back but overtime it's gone away and only because of some off-setting situations from more noise. I've had 4 encounters with moderately loud noises that have not helped my already damaged hearing but they were ones where I couldn't really get away from it. Two were weddings I attended where they ended up blasting loud music halfway through. The other two were an MRI I got to see what could be going on in my head (having depressive episodes/not feeling like myself) that was very loud and an audiogram test where one of the tests produced extremely loud beeping noises in my ears (I believe it was to test the ear drum in each ear). Ever since encountering those things the ringing in my ears has left but has been replaced my almost like an empty noise/low murmur & humming. Although you could say that's great that the loud ringing is gone, the worst part out of all of this is that I've lost my ability to enjoy music. Any song I listen to now I don't feel anything from it. I've tried listening to songs that would absolutely pump me up or give me "the chills" like it would last year or even this past summer, just don't register in my head anymore.

I feel very lost from what's going on and I'm determined to find out what the problem is. The problem about 3 months ago was that my hearing was going but it's coming to something else. This is something that is not researched enough about in the hearing industry, something I need to keep pursuing and one day get to the bottom of it. I know it has to be some kind of nerve issue to where I had to of lost an enormous amount of nerve fibers. I still can hear my frequencies well but it's almost like I've lost the sense of feeling in my hearing. It's like my ears are numb. The nerves in our ears, besides the very important cochlea hair cells, play another huge role in how we hear. The connection of the nerves to the hair cells is where the neurotransmitters play a role in giving us that feel good sensation when we hear a song we like or a loved ones voice. These nerves are what take that frequency picked up by the ever so amazing hair cell and send it straight to the brain. I've read there can be a number of nerves connected to each hair cell (mostly inner and a few on the outer) and a nerve can connect to more than one hair cell.

I know that overtime a few years when I played many shows with the band I was in and would play the drums while listening to music, I had to of done some kind of hidden damage to my hearing. As the damage became more severe, I developed slight ringing in the ears this past summer that didn't bother me much. I could still get the feel good sensation from listening to music and my hearing but when the incident occurred with the headphones and muffled/ringing the next morning, my hearing was never the same. The smoke alarm going off about a week later only made things worse and I was able to get some bit of sensation back from my hearing before that incident happened after taking B-12.

It's really fascinating what this researcher said about the nerves in our ears. Our hair cells can be look at like microphones in a room. The nerves connected to the hair cells can be like cords plugged into a machine (the brain) that picks up and processes the sounds. When you lose these nerve fibers in your ears, it's like unplugging each cord to where the microphone is picking up sound perfectly but the machine is not registering all the sound because not all the cords are plugged in! This article basically explains a good part of what causes Tinnitus besides the case of losing hair cells for Tinnitus. Read it through, it's pretty interesting.

http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/tinnitus-and-hidden-hearing-loss

There is a hidden hearing loss out there that I think closely pertains to the cause of Tinnitus, especially for those of you who have normal hearing audiograms/normal DPOAE.

I want to one day be able to get some kind of enjoyment from music but I'm not sure that will ever happen. It's just confusing how I'm still able to hear the sounds of music but just get no emotion from it at all. If there is something I get from it, it's barely anything and I couldn't even tell if it was related to hearing a song. I just can say that there is a drastic difference in how I heard and interpreted music last year/over the summer, compared to now. I really miss getting the sensation talked about in this article

http://mentalfloss.com/article/51745/why-does-music-give-us-chills


Here are some more articles talking about the nerves in our ears. The 2nd one if very very interesting.

http://www.actiononhearingloss.org....ains-defence-against-hidden-hearing-loss.aspx

http://www.buffalo.edu/news/releases/2012/06/13479.html

http://www.healthyhearing.com/report/52085-Researchers-discover-hidden-hearing-loss-mechanism

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...den-hearing-loss-risk-study-article-1.2230945

 

[Nucleo]

I think habituation works both ways. It'll remove the negative emotional perception of the tinnitus sounds. By doing so maybe it does the same for positive perceptions. I know I don't really care much for music anymore.

 

[glynis]

I think in time your love for music and the enjoyment will return so give it time and you will be surprised ..stay positive...lots of love glynis

 

[cornelius]

I had the same, less dynamics, less sharp sensations, brain offsets overtime. "Doctors" told me it was "all in your head", but research confirms more and more that hidden hearing loss. Our hope is future inner ear regeneration will target nerve fiber as well. And I'm almost sure it will be, since hearing aids, only rising some frequencies volume and compressing surrounding noises, though helpful, sounds like crap for music lovers. The result will be the same if an inner ear cure would only targets hair cells. Since music have never been as widespread as today, this issue might be taken seriously. Pretty sarcastic, but I hope teenagers will pump up the volume more and more in their eardbuds and at nightclubs, becoming hearing impaired with this music sensation complaint, so that research will go faster for us.

 

[wewejajawuwu]

Hi Nick,

I hope you are well. I've also suffered some hearing problems recently, and I'm also obssessed with music, so I feel that I can relate to what you're going through. Hopefully I can be of some small amount of help.

First, I'll give you a quick introduction. I acquired sudden hearing damage back in November after going for a run listening to (loud) techno through earbuds. In hindsight, I think that my ears were particularly susceptible to damage at the time due to a bad reaction I had to medication 2 weeks beforehand. I've now got tinnitus and a mild hearing loss in my left ear -- 15 dB loss around 3 kHz and lost everything above 14 kHz (I'm 28 and can hear up to 17 kHz in my right ear).

Like you, I am obssessed with music - I played trumpet when I was younger, I play guitar and sing, and I DJ house and techno music. When the hearing damage first happened, it hit me really hard and sent me into depression and panic. However, I'm slowly improving, despite the fact that my hearing is not getting any better. Here's some advice and some ideas that have helped me, and that might help you too:

1. Our enjoyment of music is massively influenced by our mental state. I know this because I have suffered from depression (not related to hearing loss) in the past. During this time, I did not listen to or play music because I got nothing from it whatsoever. This makes sense, because depression is caused by a deficiency of dopamine and serotonin in the brain, and the article you posted suggests that dopamine is repsonsible for the chills we get from music. Therefore, your lack of enjoyment of music is very likely caused by, or at least influenced by, your depressive state.

2. From what I understand, you may have hidden hearing loss. I am aware of the recent literature on this topic and so I agree that this is a possibility. However, I think that chasing after a diagnosis (through ABR etc.) is a complete waste of your time. First of all, the science on this topic is very (very) new and therefore getting an accurate, definitive clinical diagnosis of hidden hearing loss is just not going to happen right now. Secondly, whether or not you have hidden hearing loss, there's nothing you can do to treat it, so having a diagnosis will be of no practical help to you.

3. Whatever has happened to your ears...has happened. That's it. There's nothing you can do to change it. The only thing you can change is what you do from here. The way I see it, you have two choices:

(a) Spend all your time reading about hearing loss and tinnitus, searching for a definitive diagnosis, wrapping yourself in cotton wool, avoiding music and not enjoying life.
(b) Keep on doing the things you love, listening to music, playing music, dancing, living!

If you think about it logically, the only reasonable choice is (b). If you were to choose option (a), yes you might better preserve your hearing, but then you couldn't use your ears to enjoy music...so what would be the point?

4. If you do choose option (b), which I hope you will, there are some steps you can take to enjoy music whilst still protecting your hearing:

- Take some time off from loud music. This will allow your ears to settle and your brain to adjust to your change in auditory nerve fibers etc. Personally, I've decided to avoid nightclubs for one year, after which I will get stuck in again!
- Listen to music at low volumes. Invest in a good pair of noise-cancelling headphones -- you will find that music at 60 dB is more than loud enough to enjoy! This is well, well below the safe limit of 85 dB.
- For loud environments (drumming in your case, nightclubs in mine), invest in a pair of custom earplugs. I've got a pair of ACS Pro26, and they are amazing. They cut off 26 dB up to 4 kHz and 32 dB at higher frequencies, and music sounds crystal clear through them. If you're getting them fitted, make sure that the audiologist extends the mould past the second bend in your ear canal (see here for explanation: http://www.head-fi.org/t/578855/thi...r-custom-iem-impressions-done-the-perfect-fit). For drumming, you could even wear over-ear protection as well, as this seems to be very common.
- Take supplements before/after loud gigs etc. For example, N-Acetyl Cysteine+Vitamin C, Acetyl L-Carnitine+Alpha Lipoic Acid, Magnesium etc.

5. Even if you do have hidden hearing loss, this is not something that should stop you playing music - so keep going! There are countless examples of famous musicians who have continued to make great music with full-on, non-hidden hearing loss. Some examples that spring to mind are Neil Young, Pete Townshend and Eric Claption. Of particular interest to you, the great drummer Ginger Baker is almost deaf and he's still playing!

Anyway, if any of that helps, great! I hope none of it sounds too harsh or blunt, as that's not the intention. These are all things that I've been continuously telling myself since acquiring my hearing loss, and it has definitely helped me and continues to do so. If you have any questions or want to talk in private, feel free to message me. I know how much it can help to talk to people in the same boat, particularly fellow music-nuts!

All the best, Nick. I'm right there with you!

 

[bill 112]

Judging by my symptoms and the numerous tests I've had done I can only conclude that I too am suffering from nerve fiver loss and not haircell loss.I hear everything,but sounds like crisp packets being crushed sound like a jet engine sometimes,hard to explain but there's a strange revurby sound that comes off it,kinda like the sound you hear from a jet engine as it passes.My ears are also very sensitive to these frequencies.Ive had numerous hearing tests since onset and they're still the same to this day even though my condition has worsened from noise exposures.I can personally hear upto 18,000hz in my right ear and 17,000 in my left.Below are results from a recent hearing evaluation I've had done,I have another scheduled for next week upto 16,000hz and DPOAEs to determine once and for all what is going on with my hearing!

 

[bill 112]

Anyone know if these are good results?The audiologist said it was perfect but they always say that.

 

[bill 112]

The audiologist said the dip at 4000hz to -15db in my left ear was her error supposedly and that it should have been -10db.

 

[Bobby B]

here is one study:

the myelin sheath thickness and GAP43 expression levels were significantly enhanced in sciatic nerve-crushed rats receiving 808-nm LLLT at 3 and 8 J/cm(2). Taken together, these results suggest that 808-nm LLLT at a low energy density (3 J/cm(2) and 8 J/cm(2)) is capable of enhancing sciatic nerve regeneration following a crush injury.

here is another study

Tinnitus study signals new advance in understanding link between exposure to loud sounds and hearing loss
Posted by er134 at Feb 14, 2014 10:45 AM | Permalink
Leicester research reveals why hearing loss is correlated with auditory signals failing to get transmitted along the auditory nerve
Issued by University of Leicester Press Office on 14 February 2014

A research team investigating tinnitus, from the University of Leicester, has revealed new insights into the link between the exposure to loud sounds and hearing loss.

Their study, published this week in J Neurosci, helps to understand how damage to myelin – a protection sheet around cells - alters the transmission of auditory signals occurring during hearing loss.

The three-year study was derived from a PhD studentship funded by Action on Hearing Loss. It was led by Dr Martine Hamann, Lecturer in Neurosciences at the University's Department of Cell Physiology and Pharmacology.

Dr Hamann said: "A previous publication has shown that exposure to loud sound damages the myelin which is the protection sheet around cells. We have now shown the closer links between a deficit in the "myelin" sheath surrounding the auditory nerve and hearing loss. It becomes obvious why hearing loss is correlated with auditory signals failing to get transmitted along the auditory nerve.

****
The good news is that our hearing loss and the noise related tinntius is not only due to Cochelar Hair cells - since those do not regenerate - the nerve damage plays a role and we have ways to fix it that with LLLT as per studies..provided the loss is recent to a certain degree..

 

[bill 112]

here is one study:

the myelin sheath thickness and GAP43 expression levels were significantly enhanced in sciatic nerve-crushed rats receiving 808-nm LLLT at 3 and 8 J/cm(2). Taken together, these results suggest that 808-nm LLLT at a low energy density (3 J/cm(2) and 8 J/cm(2)) is capable of enhancing sciatic nerve regeneration following a crush injury.

here is another study

Tinnitus study signals new advance in understanding link between exposure to loud sounds and hearing loss
Posted by er134 at Feb 14, 2014 10:45 AM | Permalink
Leicester research reveals why hearing loss is correlated with auditory signals failing to get transmitted along the auditory nerve
Issued by University of Leicester Press Office on 14 February 2014

A research team investigating tinnitus, from the University of Leicester, has revealed new insights into the link between the exposure to loud sounds and hearing loss.

Their study, published this week in J Neurosci, helps to understand how damage to myelin – a protection sheet around cells - alters the transmission of auditory signals occurring during hearing loss.

The three-year study was derived from a PhD studentship funded by Action on Hearing Loss. It was led by Dr Martine Hamann, Lecturer in Neurosciences at the University's Department of Cell Physiology and Pharmacology.

Dr Hamann said: "A previous publication has shown that exposure to loud sound damages the myelin which is the protection sheet around cells. We have now shown the closer links between a deficit in the "myelin" sheath surrounding the auditory nerve and hearing loss. It becomes obvious why hearing loss is correlated with auditory signals failing to get transmitted along the auditory nerve.

****
The good news is that our hearing loss and the noise related tinntius is not only due to Cochelar Hair cells - since those do not regenerate - the nerve damage plays a role and we have ways to fix it that with LLLT as per studies..provided the loss is recent to a certain degree..

But how recent is recent enough?I hear some anecdotal stories of people using LLLT years after trauma and seeing improvement

 

[bill 112]

And what about people like myself with no real measurable hearing loss?Have nerve fibers disconnected without haircell death?Are my nerve fibers still there but damaged?And if it has disconnected why does sound cause me pain?If the fibre is no longer attached then it can't be affected by the noise coming into my ears as sound no longer travels through it?

I agree with the nerve fibre theory but there's just a lot of things I still don't understand.

 

[Cillian]

Ya it's actually beyond me I have zero hearing loss I've had them all done I hope it's down to my TMJ or else I'm screwed

 

[Nick Pyzik]

And what about people like myself with no real measurable hearing loss?Have nerve fibers disconnected without haircell death?Are my nerve fibers still there but damaged?And if it has disconnected why does sound cause me pain?If the fibre is no longer attached then it can't be affected by the noise coming into my ears as sound no longer travels through it?

I agree with the nerve fibre theory but there's just a lot of things I still don't understand.

Look into the work of Charles m Liberman, he's part of the Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts Eye and Ear program. He's conducted studies on cochlear nerve degeneration from noise trauma and shows that there is a large reduction in cochlear nerve fibers after an introduction to loud noise. The studies have also shown no loss of hair cells.

Here are links to his page and works: http://www.masseyeandear.org/research/investigators/l/liberman-m-charles

http://newswise.com/articles/noise-induced-hidden-hearing-loss-mechanism-discovered

http://m.jneurosci.org/content/29/45/14077.short

 

[bill 112]

Look into the work of Charles m Liberman, he's part of the Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts Eye and Ear program. He's conducted studies on cochlear nerve degeneration from noise trauma and shows that there is a large reduction in cochlear nerve fibers after an introduction to loud noise. The studies have also shown no loss of hair cells.

Here are links to his page and works: http://www.masseyeandear.org/research/investigators/l/liberman-m-charles

http://newswise.com/articles/noise-induced-hidden-hearing-loss-mechanism-discovered

http://m.jneurosci.org/content/29/45/14077.short

Is there any hope from this?I mean what can improve someone's situation from cochlear nerve degeneration?

 

[RB2014]

Is there any hope from this?I mean what can improve someone's situation from cochlear nerve degeneration?

https://www.ata.org/news/news/new-s...ion-method-restores-damaged-auditory-pathways

Nick has posted this before, but there is hope. This probably explains your condition, Bill.

 

[Nick Pyzik]

Is there any hope from this?I mean what can improve someone's situation from cochlear nerve degeneration?

Yeah, it's something that I hope soon becomes a real thing. There have been quite a few in vitro and in vivo tests performed regarding regeneration/reforming of a damaged auditory nerve and correctly differentiated stem cells ( ex: progenitor stem cells) have been able to reform disconnected areas. So there have been results, it's just when and how affective will it be transplanting these specifically differentiated stem cells into a human. I think Japan's finding of placing the stem cells onto the glial scars left behind from damaged neurons inside the inner ear will allow a much better chance of recovery through treatment.

 

[RB2014]

Maybe try and experiment. Plug your left ear and listen to music, then plug your ear and listen to the same music. Does it sound the same in both ears? Do you get the same affect? Possibility that the nerve fibers in one ear are worst off than the other. I know for me I can tell a huge difference between ears as my left barely processes any higher frequencies at all, and my right still has a little left, but the difference in sound is pretty drastic.