How Disabling Is Tinnitus?

[PureNoise]

Seriously, how disabling and limiting is this condition?

Does someone with mild or moderate tinnitus have to avoid certain careers due to loud noise exposure?

Are most members here overly cautious and some of the advice here is not true IF good quality earplugs are used?

I've played it extremely safe and hardly went anywhere other than restaurants the past 5 months. My tinnitus was severe at first and now I'd say its moderate.

But people are posting on here that sounds at a regular gym can make their tinnitus worse, running makes tinnitus worse, loud noises even with earplugs make tinnitus worse (although every doctor or audiologist told me as long as I have hearing protection, like custom earplugs, I won't worsen my tinnitus).

There are tons of musicians who continue to play music despite tinnitus and now wear hearing protection.
There are tons of members of the military with tinnitus who continue in their jobs now with hearing protection.
There are construction workers, firefighters, police officers who all continue working with tinnitus.

They don't necessarily end up with worse tinnitus afterwards.

Is it really that common that people develop worsened tinnitus or severe disabling tinnitus because they didn't stop all exposure to loud noise and ALL the things (apparently running, some exercises, concerts, bars/clubs, gyms that play moderately loud music, careers that involve loud noise YET hearing protection is offered) that people here say makes tinnitus worse?

Is some of the advice here too paranoid and most people can continue doing everything like going to loud venues but with hearing protection or working in a noisy career?

 

[GSC]

No idea. Depends on the person.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Does someone with mild or moderate tinnitus have to avoid certain careers due to loud noise exposure?

Are most members here overly cautious and some of the advice here is not true IF good quality earplugs are used?

Nothing is certain. If you are not cautious, you are taking a risk of getting debilitating T. The only question is about how large this risk is. For example, it could be 1 in 1000 or it could be 1 in 10...

If you don't think that eliminating the risk of getting louder T is worth it, please share with us how it works out for you.

 

[Jack Straw]

Seriously, how disabling and limiting is this condition?

Does someone with mild or moderate tinnitus have to avoid certain careers due to loud noise exposure?

Are most members here overly cautious and some of the advice here is not true IF good quality earplugs are used?

I've played it extremely safe and hardly went anywhere other than restaurants the past 5 months. My tinnitus was severe at first and now I'd say its moderate.

But people are posting on here that sounds at a regular gym can make their tinnitus worse, running makes tinnitus worse, loud noises even with earplugs make tinnitus worse (although every doctor or audiologist told me as long as I have hearing protection, like custom earplugs, I won't worsen my tinnitus).

There are tons of musicians who continue to play music despite tinnitus and now wear hearing protection.
There are tons of members of the military with tinnitus who continue in their jobs now with hearing protection.
There are construction workers, firefighters, police officers who all continue working with tinnitus.

They don't necessarily end up with worse tinnitus afterwards.

Is it really that common that people develop worsened tinnitus or severe disabling tinnitus because they didn't stop all exposure to loud noise and ALL the things (apparently running, some exercises, concerts, bars/clubs, gyms that play moderately loud music, careers that involve loud noise YET hearing protection is offered) that people here say makes tinnitus worse?

Is some of the advice here too paranoid and most people can continue doing everything like going to loud venues but with hearing protection or working in a noisy career?

A lot of people here take things to the extreme. Keep that in mind.

Tinnitus is different for everyone so this is one of those things you gotta feel out and see for yourself.

 

[PureNoise]

A lot of people here take things to the extreme. Keep that in mind.

Tinnitus is different for everyone so this is one of those things you gotta feel out and see for yourself.

I think so.

No headphones but wearing a Bluetooth streaming hearing aid that plays the same sounds into your ear from a sound app or even music is ok. Wearing a white noise generator that goes up to 60 dB for 10 hours a day is OK but not low volume music with earbuds.

Bill posts in every single thread the same quote from that one guy of 'I went to bars and clubs for years and then I woke up with louder tinnitus for a day and that was it. Until it wasn't.' Whenever someone wants to do some activity that may involve some type of loud noise. He gives good advice at times but sometimes it's like, really? Are people with tinnitus supposed to stay home all day in quiet rooms for the rest of their lives?

You can't generalize this much and I don't think I can live my life in fear forever. At some point I'm going to bring earplugs and go to louder environments. Maybe not 120 dB concerts but still.

Yet every single ENT, Audiologist etc says as long as you have hearing protection it won't worsen the tinnitus.

 

[GSC]

I think so.

No headphones but wearing a Bluetooth streaming hearing aid that plays the same sounds into your ear from a sound app or even music is ok. Wearing a white noise generator that goes up to 60 dB for 10 hours a day is OK but not low volume music with earbuds.

Bill posts in every single thread the same quote from that one guy of 'I went to bars and clubs for years and then I woke up with louder tinnitus for a day and that was it. Until it wasn't.' Whenever someone wants to do some activity that may involve some type of loud noise. He gives good advice at times but sometimes it's like, really? Are people with tinnitus supposed to stay home all day in quiet rooms for the rest of their lives?

You can't generalize this much and I don't think I can live my life in fear forever. At some point I'm going to bring earplugs and go to louder environments. Maybe not 120 dB concerts but still.

Yet every single ENT, Audiologist etc says as long as you have hearing protection it won't worsen the tinnitus.

Not to be THAT person, but people on here, a lot of people from when I looked into the forum and new posters, listened to their ENT and Audiologist's advice and still got worse. I personally think, OBVIOUSLY, each ear is individual, each ear has their own auditory threshold once they get tinnitus and it either improves and becomes more resilient as time goes on, or it stays how it is.

 

[Jack Straw]

Not to be THAT person, but people on here, a lot of people from when I looked into the forum and new posters, listened to their ENT and Audiologist's advice and still got worse. I personally think, OBVIOUSLY, each ear is individual, each ear has their own auditory threshold once they get tinnitus and it either improves and becomes more resilient as time goes on, or it stays how it is.

Hair cells continue to die off even after a NIT for a little while. Those new people potentially could have gotten worse even if they sat in complete silence for 6 months. This is again an anecdotal subject, which makes it hard to see fact from fiction.

 

[GSC]

Hair cells continue to die off even after a NIT for a little while. Those new people potentially could have gotten worse even if they sat in complete silence for 6 months. This is again an anecdotal subject, which makes it hard to see fact from fiction.

I know that. But they got worse after moderate noises - which if you wanna say - killed the hair cells faster, go ahead. But they still got worse by heeding this advice. I think it's better to lose hair cells gradually along the time-frame of 6 months, instead of suffering another noise trauma/shock.

 

[PureNoise]

Not to be THAT person, but people on here, a lot of people from when I looked into the forum and new posters, listened to their ENT and Audiologist's advice and still got worse. I personally think, OBVIOUSLY, each ear is individual, each ear has their own auditory threshold once they get tinnitus and it either improves and becomes more resilient as time goes on, or it stays how it is.

I refuse to live in 'what if' for the rest of my life. That's literally no life. We don't hear many stories about severe tinnitus in the media. Even on here, it isn't the majority. And some people here still go to clubs, concerts, bars with no ill effects. Most actually.

Most got worse from loud concerts that's for sure. So that's one of the bigger risks that I would personally avoid. My Audiologist has mild tinnitus and still goes out, still listens to music on headphones.

How come many people with tinnitus are still able to work in the military AFTER acquiring tinnitus? If they were debilitated they would have been discharged. Same thing with construction workers, police officers, firefighters, paramedics. Many of them have tinnitus and keep doing their job. Why don't we hear how all of them are debilitated by tinnitus?

 

[Bill Bauer]

I certainly won't let fear hold me back from certain careers just because of tinnitus.

LOL

Is there a reason why are you letting fear holding you back from drinking and driving or from taking heroin?

Bill posts in every single thread the same quote from that one guy of 'I went to bars and clubs for years and then I woke up with louder tinnitus for a day and that was it. Until it wasn't.'

It is representative of a number of other, similar, posts. For example:

My T faded a lot suddenly almost 3 years ago. I had total remission of some trebly sounds in my head. It became only audible in quiet rooms.

Now its back in full force cause Im stupid. Some ENT told me ear plugs are safe. Wrong! T is with me again.

Here's another new one for you:

Sometimes it is live and learn. Don't touch! That is hot! I told you. Very sad.

I can live my life in fear forever

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time. Can you live your life with debilitating tinnitus forever?

Are people with tinnitus supposed to stay home all day in quiet rooms for the rest of their lives?

It all depends on what is important to you, and HOW important it is to you. If not getting permanent debilitating tinnitus is less important to you than whatever it is you want to do - do it, make my day.

 

[GSC]

I refuse to live in 'what if' for the rest of my life. That's literally no life. We don't hear many stories about severe tinnitus in the media. Even on here, it isn't the majority. And some people here still go to clubs, concerts, bars with no ill effects. Most actually.

Most got worse from loud concerts that's for sure. So that's one of the bigger risks that I would personally avoid. My Audiologist has mild tinnitus and still goes out, still listens to music on headphones.

How come many people with tinnitus are still able to work in the military AFTER acquiring tinnitus? If they were debilitated they would have been discharged. Same thing with construction workers, police officers, firefighters, paramedics. Many of them have tinnitus and keep doing their job. Why don't we hear how all of them are debilitated by tinnitus?

Some people are lucky, some people aren't. I'm not a gambling kind of person, I'm not going to push my luck to find out if I'm one of those people personally.

 

[PureNoise]

LOL

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time. Can you live your life with debilitating tinnitus forever?

It all depends on what is important to you, and HOW important it is to you. If not getting permanent debilitating tinnitus is less important to you than whatever it is you want to do - make my day - do it.

You live a very introverted lifestyle and you enjoy that. But you don't need to project that lifestyle as a prerequisite for not ending up with permanent debilitating tinnitus. A few examples you quote are not the rule.

Don Tinny said it was a VERY VERY LOUD concert in a small indoor space. That is much different from Jason C who saw Guns and Roses outdoors and was fine.

Unless your tinnitus is already debilitating, no one needs to live as cautiously as you recommend.

Your view of tinnitus is that it destines you to very quiet restaurants, staying at home watching TV on low volume, avoiding everything pretty much but quiet spaces. People on here have become afraid to go to the mall of all places. Unless you have severe hyperacusis / tinnitus that's ridiculous. People are afraid of the gym.

How can anyone even work at all, socialize and do anything but stay home? An ambulance might pass by them downtown and spike their tinnitus. If you're afraid of unavoidable things like that then you've entered the realm of paranoia.

 

[PureNoise]

Some people are lucky, some people aren't. I'm not a gambling kind of person, I'm not going to push my luck to find out if I'm one of those people personally.

See I can live cautiously for maybe a year. But at some point I am going to not want to live like this anymore. If you can that cautiously for the rest of your life, you are stronger than me. I'll have to take risks cause otherwise Im just existing at home in a bubble.

I wonder how Chris Martin of Coldplay is able to continue playing ridiculously loud shows year after year and attend concerts WITH custom ear protection and not develop debilitating T? Because he listened to his doctors and started to wear hearing protection. He got T because he didnt do that.

 

[GSC]

See I can live cautiously for maybe a year. But at some point I am going to not want to live like this anymore. If you can that cautiously for the rest of your life, you are stronger than me. I'll have to take risks cause otherwise Im just existing at home in a bubble.

I wonder how Chris Martin of Coldplay is able to continue playing ridiculously loud shows year after year and attend concerts WITH custom ear protection and not develop debilitating T? Because he listened to his doctors and started to wear hearing protection. He got T because he didnt do that.

I don't plan to live an OVERLY, cautious lifestyle. But I do think it's smart to live that way for the first year or so, so you're not out walking into the world, with FRESHLY damaged ears, waiting to be damaged some more.

 

[fishbone]

Seriously, how disabling and limiting is this condition?

Does someone with mild or moderate tinnitus have to avoid certain careers due to loud noise exposure?

Are most members here overly cautious and some of the advice here is not true IF good quality earplugs are used?

I've played it extremely safe and hardly went anywhere other than restaurants the past 5 months. My tinnitus was severe at first and now I'd say its moderate.

But people are posting on here that sounds at a regular gym can make their tinnitus worse, running makes tinnitus worse, loud noises even with earplugs make tinnitus worse (although every doctor or audiologist told me as long as I have hearing protection, like custom earplugs, I won't worsen my tinnitus).

There are tons of musicians who continue to play music despite tinnitus and now wear hearing protection.
There are tons of members of the military with tinnitus who continue in their jobs now with hearing protection.
There are construction workers, firefighters, police officers who all continue working with tinnitus.

They don't necessarily end up with worse tinnitus afterwards.

Is it really that common that people develop worsened tinnitus or severe disabling tinnitus because they didn't stop all exposure to loud noise and ALL the things (apparently running, some exercises, concerts, bars/clubs, gyms that play moderately loud music, careers that involve loud noise YET hearing protection is offered) that people here say makes tinnitus worse?

Is some of the advice here too paranoid and most people can continue doing everything like going to loud venues but with hearing protection or working in a noisy career?

It's awful for anyone to have any level of tinnitus. Once tinnitus sets in, then further loud noise exposure can possibly make it worst. Protecting your ears from further damage is a must. People like @Bill Bauer may sound extreme but he does not want his tinnitus to become more intense. Anyways, his personality is one of an introvert and his comments suit his lifestyle, that's how he lives. It works for him. I am not an introvert and many are not either.

We still have to do all we can to protect our ears. Any noise can annoy the tinnitus, it doesn't have to even be loud noise. Aluminum foil can annoy, vacuums, lots of noises. In my opinion, it's best to keep the ear hair cells we have and not make them worst. I ruined mine, but I was never educated on the ears/hearing loss/tinnitus and I never had access to a forum like this where mentors come here and help and make sure others don't make the mistakes they made.

 

[PureNoise]

It's awful for anyone to have any level of tinnitus. Once tinnitus sets in, then further loud noise exposure can possibly make it worst. Protecting your ears from further damage is a must. People like @Bill Bauer may sound extreme but he does not want his tinnitus to become more intense. Anyways, his personality is one of an introvert and his comments suit his lifestyle, that's how he lives. It works for him. I am not an introvert and many are not either.

We still have to do all we can to protect our ears. Any noise can annoy the tinnitus, it doesn't have to even be loud noise. Aluminum foil can annoy, vacuums, lots of noises. In my opinion, it's best to keep the ear hair cells we have and not make them worst. I ruined mine, but I was never educated on the ears/hearing loss/tinnitus and I never had access to a forum like this where mentors come here and help and make sure others don't make the mistakes they made.

I read your posts diligently and I respect that you tell us straight up what made your tinnitus worse. My main Audiologist has tinnitus himself and told me that with enough hearing protection going to the movies or to a loud bar will not make my tinnitus worse. I'd avoid thumping nightclubs but if I can at least socialize at bars and go to movies without my tinnitus getting worse, then it didn't take that much from me. Besides silence.

Like you I love fitness and training. While avoid gyms that blast heavy loud music I am not going to be wearing earplugs to a regular commercial gym or be afraid of the gym. Maybe I'll bring a pair with me just in case.

Interestingly enough tinnitus is not an automatic disqualification from joining the military, the police, being a firefighter. If you can pass the hearing test you are in. Why is that? And there are indeed people who join that have tinnitus already.

Like what about cases like Chris Martin of Coldplay who continues to play loud shows with earplugs and tinnitus? Shouldn't he have severe tinnitus by now?

You are a tinnitus veteran with lots of experience on tinnitus, what are your thoughts on Neuromod's Lenire and are you going to be trying it out yourself?

 

[Bill Bauer]

A few examples you quote are not the rule.

We have a few examples implying that it is a good idea to protect and a few examples implying that it is not a good idea to protect. We can't create a rule one way or the other, but we Can determine that the Risk if one doesn't protect is nonzero.

People on here have become afraid to go to the mall of all places.

The horror story below happened almost two years ago. Lex is slowly getting better, recently she wrote that she is Still not completely over that spike.

I just have to write this down because I wouldn't know what I'd do otherwise. Almost a year into T and H, and things got worse over the weekend. My first real setback, and now I'm feeling the effects.

I was walking past a stack of speakers at the mall when they suddenly blasted loud music. I didn't have earplugs on because I know that area of the mall is normally quiet. Just sucks that the speakers came on. But worse was that I froze in place, like a deer caught in headlights. I got exposed for I dunno, 20 to 30 seconds before survival instinct took over.

I've been in horrible pain in the last couple of days. Stabbing, burning ear pain plus cold and warm itchy sensations. I can't get a prescription of prednisone.

I don't know what to do anymore. I feel so defeated and broken and tired. I don't want to give up, I want to fight. But the firmer my resolve gets, the harder things become for me.

How can anyone even work at all, socialize and do anything but stay home?

About two years after the onset one often becomes a lot more resilient. It is still not a good idea to go to a loud restaurant, though.
To answer your question: have you heard of that old movie Edward Scissorhands?

Your question reminded me of an old joke about that movie that I overheard back when I was in high school. (I can't believe I still remember nonsense like that.)
Question: How does Edward Scissorhands urinate?
Answer: Very carefully.

So the above answers Your question, too.

 

[fishbone]

I read your posts diligently and I respect that you tell us straight up what made your tinnitus worse. My main Audiologist has tinnitus himself and told me that with enough hearing protection going to the movies or to a loud bar will not make my tinnitus worse. I'd avoid thumping nightclubs but if I can at least socialize at bars and go to movies without my tinnitus getting worse, then it didn't take that much from me. Besides silence.

Like you I love fitness and training. While avoid gyms that blast heavy loud music I am not going to be wearing earplugs to a regular commercial gym or be afraid of the gym. Maybe I'll bring a pair with me just in case.

Interestingly enough tinnitus is not an automatic disqualification from joining the military, the police, being a firefighter. If you can pass the hearing test you are in. Why is that? And there are indeed people who join that have tinnitus already.

Like what about cases like Chris Martin of Coldplay who continues to play loud shows with earplugs and tinnitus? Shouldn't he have severe tinnitus by now?

You are a tinnitus veteran with lots of experience on tinnitus, what are your thoughts on Neuromod's Lenire and are you going to be trying it out yourself?

A movie and a loud bar can be quite a different in the noise levels. At it's peak some movies can be loud and then they can be not all that loud. Bars can also be quite different, some can be loud with TV/sports and people screaming and just talking loud. When I go to the movies (it's been awhile) I'd have one ear plug in the bad ear and at the climax or peak i'd just stick my finger in the other ear (This is what I do, I am not advising anyone).

Gyms can be loud, either the music can be loud or people will drop weights. I wear ear plugs to the gym and have a full intense workout. The gym can possibly spike the tinnitus, so for some that can be an issue. My ears blast so loud, i don't know what a spike is anymore. Wearing ear plugs in the gym is a good idea. There are times when I do take them out to greet and train other lifters. At times people do drop weights and make loud noises, so I put my plugs in again.

My tinnitus will never stop me from training in the gym or being in the dojo!

In all honesty, it all comes down to tolerance levels, tinnitus is not always about noise. It has a lot to do with stress and how we can tolerate somethings.

I have accepted my severe and live with it. I still do my gym, no matter how loud this venom gets. Keeping my stress down, avoiding negative elements/people/situation. I keep my stress low, I make use of low volume/ therapeutic sounds and just keep my faith.

 

[Lane]

He gives good advice at times but sometimes it's like, really? Are people with tinnitus supposed to stay home all day in quiet rooms for the rest of their lives?

I don't recall @Bill Bauer ever saying we should stay home all day in quiet rooms for the rest of our lives. I've read many of his posts, and your characterization of what he says doesn't fit with what I've read. I've noticed a fair number of people tend to mischaracterize his "cautionary notes", which truly puzzles me.

My main Audiologist has tinnitus himself and told me that with enough hearing protection going to the movies or to a loud bar will not make my tinnitus worse.

Just to mention, two different people on this forum had their tinnitus caused by the very same (ultraloud) scene in the same movie. That's why people with vulnerable ears (anybody with tinnitus in my opinion) should take precautionary measures whenever they're in places that could suddenly become problematic to dangerous. I myself always wear ear plugs when I'm in stores, and have been saved numerous times from loud events that took place while I was there.

 

[Chester]

I think it depends on the type of tinnitus you have. I never wore protection because my tinnitus is totally non-reactive. I go to movies (just yesterday saw "Godzilla"), watching movies in my home theater at pretty loud volume levels, do boxing, ride my motor cycle to work everyday, and all these without any protection. I resumed these activities after about 8 months since the onset. Apart from that I drink coffee and eat chocolate as usual, and nothing affected the tinnitus. My tinnitus is almost gone now after 30 months. My advice is, stay away from loud venues if you have reactive tinnitus to sound.

 

[New Guy]

About two years after the onset one often becomes a lot more resilient.

@Bill Bauer I knew that peoples ears often get better after time but I never heard mention of two years on the site. While I know nothing is written in concrete that's good to know. Perhaps you could add that to your tips post.

 

[Bill Bauer]

@Bill Bauer I knew that peoples ears often get better after time but I never heard mention of two years on the site. While I know nothing is written in concrete that's good to know. Perhaps you could add that to your tips post.

I feel that I personally started feeling more resilient sometime between 18 and 24 months. I began paying attention, and noticed a number of posts also mentioning improvements in that interval.

 

[Strife_84]

I lost my hobby (music) for now because of tinnitus and my dream about working with sounds and music in future is seriously at risk.

My condition has improved, but for now, I have to think about something else.

 

[coffee_girl]

Don't forget that time is not your friend and there is a good chance your T will increase in volume as you get older. This is why protecting them now while you're still young will pay off later. Personally I try not to think about that but it's a good reason to consider staying home VS going to the concert

 

[Michael Leigh]

No headphones but wearing a Bluetooth streaming hearing aid that plays the same sounds into your ear from a sound app or even music is ok. Wearing a white noise generator that goes up to 60 dB for 10 hours a day is OK but not low volume music with earbuds.

@PureNoise

I have explained to you there is difference between using Headphones/earbuds and hearing aids, whether playing white noise or streaming music.

A hearing aid has a tiny hole that is usually at the end of a plastic tube which wraps around the ear and is inserted into the ear canal. White noise or in some cases streaming music, can be played into the ear via the small aperture. This will not usually cause irritation to the inner ear.

Headphones and earbuds use a small speaker or diaphragm to deliver the sound and is a much larger device. I have read posts in tinnitus forums and people have contacted me who have used headphones/earbuds to play white noise at low volume, it has caused their tinnitus to spike and in some cases permanently increase, particularly with people that have "noise induced tinnitus".

I think it is risky using headphones or earbuds, to play white noise or stream music into the ear even at low volume.

Michael

PS: White noise played through headphones or earbuds at low volume, sounds crude, abrasive and is unregulated. Compared to proper white noise generators or dual-purpose hearing aids with WNGs. The sound from these devices is smooth and regulated as they are built specifically for supplying sound into the ear, which is a very delicate organ especially for someone with tinnitus.

 

[winstona]

I have had tinnitus for a year and a half now. In the early going I avoided loud movies, concerts and anything that can potentially spike my tinnitus. My ears were constantly in pain. I almost always felt that fullness in my ears. I would say my T is not the reactive kind although it did get worsen one time by high pressure washer. That was during the first month of onset.

But after a while, my ears felt a lot more normal and I felt more comfortable watching movie and listening to music via speakers again. I don't get spikes like most people do in this forum. Basically if my T is screeching when I wake up, it's screeching all the way till I go to bed. Same goes for a low T day. If it's low T, it stays low for the entire day until I go to bed. The volume almost never change during the day, regardless of whether I have watched a loud movie or listened to music.

I guess if the tinnitus is caused by acoustic trauma, it is better to let the ears heal for a bit before risking noise exposure again. Like in my case, I did get spike in the first few months but after letting my ears heal for 6-8 months I was able to do a lot more without fear and ear protection.

 

[dayma]

@winstona this is pretty similar to my experience outside of the pain and fullness. My T has been around for about 18months and my spikes are not like others on the boards. The way it starts is usually the way it is the whole day.

I am also following the same path you are with protecting my hearing.

 

[winstona]

@winstona this is pretty similar to my experience outside of the pain and fullness. My T has been around for about 18months and my spikes are not like others on the boards. The way it starts is usually the way it is the whole day.

I am also following the same path you are with protecting my hearing.

But one thing I try to avoid is earbuds. I haven't used earbuds or headphones for a year and a half except for a few odd times.

How's your T now after 18 months? Have you noticed any improvements?

 

[dpdx]

Yes, I have Tinnitus and Hyperacusis for 2 years now, it turned severe after doing ear tests.

 

[dayma]

But one thing I try to avoid is earbuds. I haven't used earbuds or headphones for a year and a half except for a few odd times.

How's your T now after 18 months? Have you noticed any improvements?

Honestly yes, a little better but still pretty bad. I am still very distressed by it but I just try to keep distracted and get though each day. I use ear buds and the such to listen to podcasts or rain noises. Never over 30% vol.