Hypothesizing a Theory Regarding Tinnitus

[Itay]

Hi, My name is Itay. I'm new here. About 1.5 weeks ago I found out that my hearing sounds a little too high (with high frequency), like a computer/TV CRT screen from the old generation was stuck to my head all the time. The sound seemed to emit from the center of my head. I started to realize I might have developed Tinnitus.. I do however remember these sounds a few months earlier.
After reading a bit scientific stuff, and experimenting a bit with my own, I have a hypothesis regarding how tinnitus is formed and how to treat it. I am not a researcher in any way and I do not have a bit of the knowledge some of the guys here have. Take this with a grain of salt. Here it goes :

Tinnitus starts in a variety of ways. My theory is about the way a single tone tinnitus is formed :
1. It starts when the neuronal connections from the ear, to the auditory V1 cortical region or pre-cortical neural circuit, are starting to send false signals. I don't know why these signals are sent. It might be from damage to the nerve, hair cells, or other reasons..
2. The brain is getting these sounds, at first interprets them as the ear "howling" irregularly at a single tone, however with time forming a closed neuronal loop in the auditory V1 cortex or the pre-cortical neural circuit. When the brain does this, it "predicts" the signals sent from the ear, at the brain itself. These neuronal predictions are learnt. When these predictions are learnt, and when the sound starts playing from the neural cortex itself, the sound might seem to originate from the center of the head, and not from one of the ears. This is false illusion.

How to find out if this hearing the sound from the center of the head is an illusion and where the real source?
One thing I have experimented on my own, (and it worked) - you need to play the same tone / or close tone of the tinnitus on the computer (search in google "khz sounds").
If you are three months to a half year from the tinnitus beginning, then the tinnitus memory might still not be intact : when you will play the tones the tinnitus will shut off temporarly. Instead, you should hear the damaged ear howling. When I did that, I the high frequency hiss/tone that originated from the center of the head shut off completely for a few minutes, and I was able to hear clearly my right ear howling irregularly. Over time, the hiss had returned to it's default position.

3. Over time, the auditory cortex predictions are learnt so well that the brain have already formed a feedback loop that never stops : it is able to play the tone on it's own. So even though the ear nerve might repair itself over time, the sound will continue emitting from the brain. This is healthy brain function.

Theorized treatments :
So now I theorize about the possible treatments. In this sense that the brain learns the tone completely, there are two distinct stages. 1) before memorizing the tone 2) after memorizing the tone.
Memorizing the tone takes between 3 months to 6 months.

Treatments before memorizing the tone :
1) Injection of neuronal depressing agent to the damaged ear. Depressing the false neuronal signals are critical to ensure that the brain will not learn the tone and once it is done the tinnitus should disappear. There is already a clinical trial regarding this : AM-101 From Auris Medical.
2) Messing with the damaged nerve ear electronically (triggering electric pulses might shut the nerve off, however, there is danger as it can also trigger additional bad sounds)
3) Hyperbaric chamber - by triggering hair cell growth and restoring nerve functioning, the damage can be repaired.
4) Neuronal depressing drug to shut off the random spikes from the bad ear.

Treatments after memorizing the tone :
Treatments looks like far more difficult after the brain had memorized the tone but I think there still a possibility. How in the world do you delete a memory?
I hypothesize that these treatments can only work when the normal ear functioning is restored. If the normal ear functioning is not restored, then there is no point in doing all of the below, because then the noise will be re-learnt.
1) Surgery that is doing :
a) removing the bad part of the auditory cortex completely
b) injecting depressing neuronal shot into the overactive neuronal region
c) Inject a shot of a material that deletes all the auditory V1 cortex connections.
2) Taking a drug that depresses overactive neuronal circuits. overtime these connections might be unlearnt.
3) Messing with the affected region electrically.
4) extreme theory : maybe maybe maybe if you play the same tone you are hearing for many hours a day and alter it a little (for an example, by changing tone very slowly, or reducing volume in an external attached speaker) you might be able to modify this memory very slowly. ONLY if the damaged ear no longer transmit bad sounds by the time you are doing this.
5) There is a possibility that if you play other stimulating sounds close to the tone for plenty of time per day the other neurons will inhibit the tone. but this is a longshot. This can also work when the tinnitus starts when some neurons in the region are no longer working and are hyper-excitatory (when losing ear function)

Also, don't lose hope as there is a chance that your brain still haven't memorized the tone. every brain behaves differently

Clearly, it looks like chronic tinnitus is far more difficult and intrusive to treat (surgical methods), but I think that there is still hope and treatments to be made..
Thoughts? feedback?
thanks you

 

[Molan]

There have been reported cases of people's Tinnitus being cured through surgery. This study showed that out of 151 patients 101 reported complete relief of Tinnitus when they had their Cochlear nerve severed. Worthwhile improvement was noted in 43 patients and 7 patients obtained no improvement.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7671835

Several cases of Pulsatile Tinnitus have also been cured with Surgery,

http://journals.lww.com/otology-neu...=2007&issue=01000&article=00009&type=abstract


I've always believed any changes in the brain in Tinnitus sufferers are symptomatic to what is going on elsewhere. When you fix the problem in the inner ear region and the brain receives the normal signals again I believe it will automatically revert back to normal. This retraining the brain stuff I personally believe to be nonsense and a complete waste of time. That's why as soon as I heard about the vagus nerve Rat study several years ago I believed it wouldn't do much for a person's Tinnitus. I mean if you go into a room and see a big giant Tarantula on the wall you don't electricute yourself and 'to try and train yourself to ignore it do you? You try get rid of the spider!! That is the most logical of action right?

Please keep on the path of independent learning about this condition Itay. The experts for whatever reason in this field are worse then useless. I believe we all need to figure this thing out for ourselves if we are ever going to get anywhere. You are off to a good start!

 

[Itay]

There have been reported cases of people's Tinnitus being cured through surgery. This study showed that out of 151 patients 101 reported complete relief of Tinnitus when they had their Cochlear nerve severed. Worthwhile improvement was noted in 43 patients and 7 patients obtained no improvement.

The experts for whatever reason in this field are worse then useless.

Hmm..
What is this nerve composed of? is it 1) the nerve that comes from the ear to the auditory cortex, or 2) is it the nerve that comes from the pre-cortex neural circuit to the auditory cortex?
if it's the first option, then it is interesting to see that in most patients a phantom noise is not learned in the auditory cortex.
if it's the second option, then the phantom noise might be learnt and keeps generating at the pre-cortex neural circuit.
if it's the first option, then there are more possibilities for treatment because it's close to the skin and you might be able to put a needle through. if you disable the nerve (temporarly) by for an example, by local depression or anesthetization drug, it will be interesting to see if the noise continues. if it continues then it's a phantom noise somewhere else. If it does not continue then perhaps there is an option to do things locally to the nerve (without a surgery and opening the skull) such as applying a long term neural depressing agent.

But, when you severe that nerve, doesn't it mean that the person has gone deaf? do people prefer permanent deafness rather than hearing the tinnitus? also, I think you can severe part of the nerve because it's not a nerve but rather thousands of nerves bundled together, also, if you have access to the originating neurons of the ear then you can put electronic meters to judge the neuronal activity. If you can not, then you can do this from the receiving side (the auditory cortex)

All things considered, what is it stated in "AM-101 From Auris Medical" web page that the neural depressing agent is only valid for the starting phase of the tinnitus, since later it becomes a phantom noise? I believe they know what they are saying, but then the conflicting result from the link you gave proves something else.

Basically this is all a complex business when relating to the ease of access and locating stuff, if there was a simpler access to watching the neuronal activity it was all much easier..

Let's say we make up a theory, how can we test it without becoming a possible casualty? and who would be the kind doctor who is going to agree to perform the longshot surgery?

And why is this field progressing so slowly? ("The experts for whatever reason in this field are worse then useless")
what is needed to advance the field forwards? what is it? more money? other researchers? if every tinnitus sufferer on the whole internet would donate 1000-2000$ to the same insitute then it would be much faster.

Regarding what you said about brain retraining : well, I don't look at it that way conceptually, not in the way of a "bad memory that needs to be changed in meaning when seeing similar inputs" but just as for how the biological point of view goes. an hallucination.
Brain retraining has a record of history that is applied to other problems and definite improvements, so I don't see why not try. Obviously, this is a longshot. I think that the exciting the vagus nerve (or any other nerve for the concept) or taking drugs (that make learning easier / more plasticity) in combination with hearing tones near the tinnitus tone simultaneously, in order to trigger learning, is worth trying. So why doesn't it work in many patients? perhaps the ear is still sending bad signals to the brain. and as long as those signals are received there is no way to unlearn the phantom noise. the retraining can only be effective once there is no more external signal. The question is how can you know if what you hear is an hallucination or a true signal that comes from the ear.

Other areas worth to look solutions for the phantom noise, are : 1) techniques and / or surgaries for foregtting memories 2) techniques for dealing with obsessive memories 3) techniques for easing phantom pain

 

[Molan]

That is correct when the cochlear nerve (Or the entire nerve pathway) is completely severed you are deaf. Obviously this is not a recommended procedure but it highlights that for certain cases at least the Tinnitus noise is generated from the Inner ear. So by severing the connection the brain no longer receives the signal from the inner ear and the Tinnitus is gone. So in my view the aim should be regeneration of the damaged structures of the inner ear.

You might be interested in this thread I made about someone Menieres being cured through a rather interesting procedure involving activating a person's own stem cells . Tinnitus is one of the symptoms of this condition

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/menieres-disease-"100-percent-cured"-after-stem-cell-procedure-in-germany.1460/

Why is the field progressing so slowly you ask? Well there are a wide variety of opinions on this subject but you will come to your own conclusion eventually. Some people say there isn't enough interest or money whilst others question the motivation to find a cure at all! Why cure something which generates an income? It's a topic that can be endlessly debated.

Well I can see why others might but I do not think brain retraining is an appropriate treatment for Tinnitus personally. It's a very artificial and unnautural approach and I think it's effectiveness is severely limted for something like Tinnitus. When the results of the first Vagus nerve study on humans came out I wasn't suprised it was such a failure.

As I said it's great that you are researching this condition in such detail. I think it's important to educate ourselves as much as possible and develop our own ideas. Please keep it up!

 

[Itay]

When the results of the first Vagus nerve study on humans came out I wasn't suprised it was such a failure.

Which results? all the trials I've seen so far both from t-vns and both from Microtransponder's system was positive. Microtransponder still seems to be heading straight forward with their device. so I don't see why you are so negative about this..

 

[Molan]

I suppose we define failure differently. I define it as an inability to cure or at least substantially reduce the tinnitus noise in a number on people.

Sorry to sound negative but I've had this for quite a while and seen hype like this before. I simply see it as an ineffective method and so far that is what has happened. In my opinion any approach which does not directly tackle the issue of damaged neurons will ultimately end up being a waste of time.

 

[Itay]

Hi guys and I really have had an insight breakthrough today.

This insight is fully compatible with modern neurology theory and common logic. no Chinese magic and abstract stuff here!!!
This insight also makes the theory complete and explains a possible way to recover from acute tinnitus.

If you notice in the population data from tinnitus sufferers, you will notice that there are high percentage of people with exaggerated worry. This is a big clue. You will also notice that 50% of the people spontaneously recover from tinnitus, and many old people or people who go to clubs regularly and have bad hearing do NOT have "any" tinintus, how is that possible?

My hypothesis determines that EVERYONE have minor acute tinnitus. this tinnitus is so minor that you need to be in an empty room to hear it. according to surveys this is true and 93% of the people do hear some sound in an empty room.
Also, EVERYONE's hearing is deteriorating with time. the question is what is the slope of deterioration. If the slope is high, then the brain will produce high amount of ghost noise. If the slope is low, then the brain will produce low amount of ghost noise. But if old people lose 50% of their hearing during their lifetime, shouldn't their tinnitus become huge at old age?
Well, I argue that the brain detects the low output from the ear, and producing the ghost noise, but after a while (a couple of months) the ghost noise subsides and the hearing remains deteriorated however the ghost noise is gone and the brain was able to get used to the low output. This is spontaneous recovery from acute tinnitus.
However, if the affected person's acute tinnitus is high enough in volume to get noticed, or the person is constantly worrying and obsessing with his own acute tinnitus and put intense attention on it, then the tinnitus sound will get slowly recorded in the auditory cortex or the auditory first brainstem, and finally become a phantom sound.

It is well known that patients with pain slowly becomes chronic pain. once it becomes chronic it is very difficult to get rid of.

So how to recover from acute tinnitus? the answer is simple, either cancel the tinnitus noise before it turns into a phantom memory by regenerating the tissues in the ear, or do all your effort to ignore the sound and focus on other sounds in your auditory and visual workspace. use all medications and help you need in order to achieve this. As it can get difficult with loud acute tinnitus.

Thoughts?

 

[Molan]

It's an interesting theory but my experience tells me that minor acute Tinnitus is certainly not a problem everyone has. I have had friends and family sit in with me when I have had hearing tests in soundproof rooms and all they heard was silence. My Grandma is in her 70's and frequently sits in her library in silence to read and she doesn't have tinnitus. In fact she never knew a condition like Tinnitus even existed until I came down with it. I also remember clearly sleeping and studying in silence when I younger and heard absolutely nothing

The survey you are referring to is the Heller and Bergman experiment done a very long time ago in 1953. That study is riddled with flaws far too numerous to go into here. I will deal with just a few. First let's say if I pick a random sample of people and 90% of them don't have perfect vision does that make it normal? Of course not! There were people in that H + B study who were in a soundproof room yet heard nothing but nobody seemed to focus on them at all? Also they call any noise reported by the participants Tinnitus? Yet some reported a pulse like noise which could simply be their own blood flow which is not the same as a high pitch ringing noise. Too much wax has also been known in some people to cause strange whooshing noises in peoples ears but once it's removed the noises completely disappear.

I personally don't consider that study credible at all and haven't found it to be true in my life anyway. Let us also not forget that silence is mentioned in books going back thousands of years ago before all of this artificial noise we all deal with today. They would have a good idea what silence is back in those days. They certainly were not saying everybody has strange ringing noises in their heads!


If you haven't already read it I would also check out what a member here called Karl thinks Tinnitus is. It's comment no. 32 on this link below,

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/how-is-it-actually-going-for-ata.723/page-2#post-13230

 

[Itay]

It's an interesting theory but..
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/how-is-it-actually-going-for-ata.723/page-2#post-13230

Very interesting. This could rule out my theory completely.
But when you consider that chronic pains are real diseases, combined with the claim that the vagus nerve therapy can reduce "phantom sound" as the MicroTransponder company itself describes it - I wonder though if it just reduces the representation of the ear input, combined with the claim made in AM-101 clinical trial webpage that after three months the neural depressing agent is no longer effective (because of brain remembering the phantom sound), you get an overall supporting picture for my theory.
The only thing that misfits is your link that shows that severing the ear nerve completely relieves tinnitus completely. In that case, I wonder where the nerve is cut - after the auditory brainstem? the first neural processing stop after the ear? or before the auditory brainstem?
If Karl's theory is correct (and if it does it would be so so so extremely helpful and a pure gift from god), then the way to reduce tinnitus is by simply damaging the ear at the other side. and if that's correct, then if you hear tinnitus in your right ear then your left ear is damaged and vice versa. Have I gotten it right?

Also, regarding what you said that you didn't hear anything - Everyone's perspective is different for "what they hear". If you were a young boy you might not pay complete attention. I know that in my case there was an almost silent (max. 2-3 dicbels) slight hum and maybe very little static and I couldn't hear it but only when sitting in very very silent and isolated places. like the backseat of a closed car. It also doesn't make sense that your grandma haircells are entirely balanced in both the ears..

Sorry, there is just too much supportive evidence for my theory. Although I wish Karl's theory was true rather than my own pessimistic theory.

We need to check where the ear nerve severing occurred in order to find out who's right.

 

[Aisling]

Plus the guy Thomas Meyer from the AM101 trial wrote to Markuu that they are taking patients now who have tinnitus for up to 12 months. It was posted on another thread here. He said people were commenting that their trial has moved from 6 months from the onset to 3 months but this was false.

I would gladly give 1000-2000 so we could solve this thing

 

[Itay]

Plus the guy Thomas Meyer from the AM101 trial wrote to Markuu that they are taking patients now who have tinnitus for up to 12 months.

Very good. When this clinical trial will be finished we would know how much time it takes for the window to be closed.

 

[Hudson]

I emailed Thomas Meyer to inquire about the trial for onset up to 12 months. He told me that trial would only be taking place in the EU. I'm not sure where you are located, but they will be having a trial opening up in August here in the US. It is for onset up to 3 months, and if you're near a site and your onset started in May, perhaps you could get in on that trial. I don't know what your situation is though.

This trial lists places they have worked with in the past, and I would assume they would continue to work with the same locations in the US and EU for the next trial.

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01270282?term=am-101&rank=1

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01803646?term=am-101&rank=3
This second link is the trial which will be opening in August. They don't have the locations listed yet though, although I said I would assume they would work with the same locations (maybe more because it is a phase 3 trial).

 

[Molan]

Also, regarding what you said that you didn't hear anything - Everyone's perspective is different for "what they hear". If you were a young boy you might not pay complete attention. I know that in my case there was an almost silent (max. 2-3 dicbels) slight hum and maybe very little static and I couldn't hear it but only when sitting in very very silent and isolated places. like the backseat of a closed car. It also doesn't make sense that your grandma haircells are entirely balanced in both the ears..

I have to add that I'm only in my mid 20's and got Tinnitus when I was 16 so it wasn't like 40 years ago that I remember hearing silence!

I should have said as well I also had hearing tests in a soundproof room in my school and would occasionally stay in there afterwards if a friend was also being tested. I heard only silence. In fact the only time I ever heard of anyone having noises in their heads at my school was whooshing sounds due to wax build ups which disappeared once removed. As for my Grandma well I have no idea what is going on inside her ears but she has excellent hearing and no Tinnitus and hasn't been to the Doctor for many years. In fact she actually has better hearing then me!

Due to the fact my Tinnitus is at the same frequency as my hearing loss I will never be convinced this is a natural noise. When I no hearing loss I had no Tinnitus it's that simple. You might say well some people have no hearing loss at all and they still have Tinnitus? I don't think this is true because most hearing tests only test up to a certain frequency. So if you are only testing up to 8Khz then it will not register hearing loss at any range higher then that. There is also evidence emerging that significant degeneration of the cochlear nerve occurs after noise exposure, even when there is no hair cell loss, and even when hearing thresholds have returned to normal.

http://www.acoustics.org/press/159th/liberman.htm


if you are interested in seeing a list of studies showing where Tinnitus has been cured in some people please see the link below.

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/some-reasons-to-be-optimistic.866/

 

[Karl]

...
If Karl's theory is correct (and if it does it would be so so so extremely helpful and a pure gift from god), then the way to reduce tinnitus is by simply damaging the ear at the other side. and if that's correct, then if you hear tinnitus in your right ear then your left ear is damaged and vice versa. Have I gotten it right?
...

Itay -
You raise an interesting idea, which I've thought about myself. No medical professional has ever attempted to intentionally damage hearing on one side. That would be very hard to do, and it may cause even more damage. Then if both ears "hear nothing", the brain may crank-up the gain control even more.

For many people, hearing aids can almost reinstate the balance that has occurred. Many people experience tinnitus suppression wearing hearing aids. Some people experience complete suppression. Most of the time it can be about 60%-75% suppression. For the past 3 months I've been wearing hearing aids, and they do reduce my tinnitus when I wear the aids. I'm convinced that if I had better aids with more amplifiers, perhaps I could get better suppression.

I've also been asking myself, what if the medical establishment agreed on a cause, what would be the "Next Step"?

Tinnitus involves a fairly large neurological process after it establishes itself. Even if you fix the initial site of the defect - the ear - it seems that the cycle can remain perpetuating on a higher brain level.

I would venture to guess that many of us would experience quiet if a drug (like a benzo), could be injected behind the ear. That would be very hard to do - because our skull is in the way! But if a hole could be drilled through the skull, near the ear, to create a site to receive injections? Drill a little hole, place a patch on it, comb your hair over it....Get up in the morning, "Honey, will you come here and inject my brain this morning??"

I am placing my hopes on the following:

1. Stem cells: Recently a doctor in Germany has been curing people of Meniere's disease. If they can do that, I think they can regenerate the hair cells that initially cause tinnitus.
2. The US military is aggressively looking for a way to deliver a medicine to the ear to sedate tinnitus (This is one of those stealth projects, where big US tax dollars are being spent.)
3. In Europe, there is something called "HiFu", which I don't pretend to understand. I think this is a new medical approach involving the thalamus, which is a brain organ that controls our reactions to experiences.
4. Dichonics: This is a sound therapy that claims to temporarily cancel tinnitus for 75% of people. There will be an Internet version of Dichonics available in the near future. Not yet available.
5. TRT: Jastreboff's tinnitus retraining therapy/habituation. For some people who go through TRT, it is no longer an issue.

I'm placing my own hopes on habituation.

I've been pondering this: We cannot consciously control tinnitus because it occurs at a lower brain function. We can only control how much we react to it. In theory, I get it.

Like a mantra, I keep telling myself that: "I can only control how much I react to it. I can only control how much I react to it.I can only control how much I react to it...." (like Dorothy From Kansas, saying "I will go home. I will home...")

I'm just hoping this mantra will make my reaction to tinnitus go away!

 

[t-man]

This retraining the brain stuff I personally believe to be nonsense and a complete waste of time. That's why as soon as I heard about the vagus nerve Rat study several years ago I believed it wouldn't do much for a person's Tinnitus. I mean if you go into a room and see a big giant Tarantula on the wall you don't electricute yourself and 'to try and train yourself to ignore it do you? You try get rid of the spider!! That is the most logical of action right?

The procedure doesn't teach the brain to ignore tinnitus; it is designed to re-plasticize misfiring nerves to respond to another signal.

Think about it; if auditory nerves are misfiring because of a lack of single from the cochlea, why not rewire them to connect to another available signal? The same procedure is done with patients that suffer from nerve damage and have to retrain their bodies. Why is it we're the minority? Why do most people's brains re-plasticize when ear damage occurs without tinnitus? Why do some people naturally recover from nerve damage to appendages better then some? We need to find a way to rewire our brains and using electrical impulses is currently our best hope.

This is why HIFU surgery is seemingly successful, if simply a side effect of the intended surgery; it's for some reason forcing the brain to re-plasticize after the vestibulocochlear nerve has been damaged.

Personally I'm too cynical to think any of this is going to work, but it is logical.

 

[markoana]

You might say well some people have no hearing loss at all and they still have Tinnitus? I don't think this is true because most hearing tests only test up to a certain frequency. So if you are only testing up to 8Khz then it will not register hearing loss at any range higher then that.

Molan, I think that is not correct. First, how can u make any hearing lose in 16th y. or in mid 20's if u were not exposed to some extremly noise situation, or had some hearing trauma?
In situation where u are at home for a days, learning, studying, relaxing, T suddenly starts? What hearing loss we can talk about then...I do not say that kind of starting T is often, but it is a real possibility...
That is why T is a syndrome not disease. Because there are more than 100 possible causes of developing T, not just hearing loss...

 

[t-man]

Molan, I think that is not correct. First, how can u make any hearing lose in 16th y. or in mid 20's if u were not exposed to some extremly noise situation, or had some hearing trauma?
In situation where u are at home for a days, learning, studying, relaxing, T suddenly starts? What hearing loss we can talk about then...I do not say that kind of starting T is often, but it is a real possibility...
That is why T is a syndrome not disease. Because there are more than 100 possible causes of developing T, not just hearing loss...

Anything can cause hearing loss. A bump to the head, ototoxins found in food, drugs, or your environment, etc. Also, it sounds like the tinnitus you're describing isn't chronic subjective tinnitus caused by hearing loss; it's a constant ringing throughout our very existence, not so much a flair-up as you describe.

Usually, hearing tests only test up to 12k, where you could have hearing loss as high as 14 to 16k, and most humans won't even realize it becasue it's mostly insignificant to our daily lives. But the brain certainly notices.

 

[Molan]

The procedure doesn't teach the brain to ignore tinnitus; it is designed to re-plasticize misfiring nerves to respond to another signal.

Think about it; if auditory nerves are misfiring because of a lack of single from the cochlea, why not rewire them to connect to another available signal? The same procedure is done with patients that suffer from nerve damage and have to retrain their bodies. Why is it we're the minority? Why do most people's brains re-plasticize when ear damage occurs without tinnitus? Why do some people naturally recover from nerve damage to appendages better then some? We need to find a way to rewire our brains and using electrical impulses is currently our best hope.

This is why HIFU surgery is seemingly successful, if simply a side effect of the intended surgery; it's for some reason forcing the brain to re-plasticize after the vestibulocochlear nerve has been damaged.

Personally I'm too cynical to think any of this is going to work, but it is logical.

Well maybe ignore was probably the wrong word in this context but I was referring to the fact the original damage which causes Tinnitus is not being addressed in this procedure. Re-wiring in my opinion is just skirting round the problem. It's not something I believe will be effective.

 

[Molan]

Molan, I think that is not correct. First, how can u make any hearing lose in 16th y. or in mid 20's if u were not exposed to some extremly noise situation, or had some hearing trauma?
In situation where u are at home for a days, learning, studying, relaxing, T suddenly starts? What hearing loss we can talk about then...I do not say that kind of starting T is often, but it is a real possibility...
That is why T is a syndrome not disease. Because there are more than 100 possible causes of developing T, not just hearing loss...

As T-man has already explained any number of things can cause hearing loss which are not noise related. In my own case I came down with a very severe ear infection at 16 which caused my hearing loss and Tinnitus. Before that everything was normal.

 

[markoana]

Anything can cause hearing loss. A bump to the head, ototoxins found in food, drugs, or your environment, etc. Also, it sounds like the tinnitus you're describing isn't chronic subjective tinnitus caused by hearing loss; it's a constant ringing throughout our very existence, not so much a flair-up as you describe.

Usually, hearing tests only test up to 12k, where you could have hearing loss as high as 14 to 16k, and most humans won't even realize it becasue it's mostly insignificant to our daily lives. But the brain certainly notices.

T-man, how u do u think it is not chronic subjective T caused by hearing loss? I am sure that it is not from hearing loss, but how u would decribe it, if it si not subjecive chronic? thnx

 

[Itay]

Hi, I do want this thread to continue and to inject fuel into it.
I have consulted two doctors who claim to have treated thousands of tinnitus patients.
One doctor knew of AM-101, and he said that he's not impressed with it. The other doctor said that inner ear injections have proven to cause serious unwanted sideeffects in the past.
Also, he said that focusing on the tinnitus will not matter to the brain centralization. it will centralize in the brain anyways whether focusing it, habituating to it or not. which rules out my theory.
What strikes me is that if you severe the ear nerve then 66% of the patients report that the tinnitus is gone. My theory is that the auditory brainstem is not controllable by higher (cortex) functions and then indeed concentration will not matter in the centralization. And thus my prediction is that the nerve must be severed AFTER the auditory brainstem for the tinnitus to be gone.

Markoana is right here, there are many reasons for tinnitus to develop. However, once it develops, it begins centralizing in the brain and becomes a phantom noise, and that's something the doctor I contacted agreed upon. finally it becomes a similar problem in all of the patients.

Here are possible problems (according to my knowledge) :
- The ear sends a bad signal to the auditory brainstem because of auditory loss (AM-101 takes care of this)
- The ear sends a good signal however the auditory brainstem/cortex neurons overexcite beccause they receive no signal because of auditory loss. Hearing frequencies close to the damaged frequency might be able to cure it.
- The auditory brainstem overexcite because of some bad connections. If you do not have high level control (also called "Observer", perfrontal cortex control) over the auditory low level brainstem then these connections will persist.
- The ear sends a bad signal and/or the auditory brainstem neurons overexcite because of various reasons, and the thalamic connections that filters/inhibit these noises are being damaged. This can happen due to unhealthy emotional limbic system. Ultimately this problem passes through to the auditory cortex. My prediction is that curing this would be very difficult.
- Seems that in 33% of the patients AFTER nerve severing the noise continues. My prediction is that the noise centralized in the auditory V1 cortex.
- A possible problem prediction : noise still centralizes both in the auditory brainstem and in auditory cortex V1. When severing the nerve to 66% of the patients, the noise had subsided because other input from the ear had subsided as well. You see, if there are two regions for V1 (left and right ears) then a possible prediction is that ANY signal (people speaking, outdoor noise, or any regular noise) from the ear will predict the ear noise in that same cortex region after it had centralized. when there are no incoming signals at all, then the noise prediction had also stopped. This opens up the possibility that even if you fix the auditory brainstem there is higher chance that the noise will persist from the auditory V1 cortex for the affected ear.

My prediction is that the focus on the problems and solutions, should be on the auditory brainstem. and not on the inner ear. And for further research - on the V1 auditory cortex and on the auditory cortex that integrates sounds from both ears (don't know how it's called). Although some percentage of the problems might occur from the bad signal from the ear of which AM-101 is trying to solve.

Also, the doctor preferred me to not dig and research about tinnitus since It has an overall bad effect..
So I don't know if I will respond further.

 

[Danny]

Awesome posts!!! It's all over the place tho....My 2 cents.....I first belive it's a brain thing as opposed to an ear thing just on the fact that not everyone who has hearing loss gets the specisl gift of Tinnitus. My thought is that we as humans all carry our own individual DNA, but its all possible that we as humans may carry a certain gene amongst ourselves. we all posses that certain gene that activates when the wiring in our brain gets fried or dislodged in certain ways. I do believe that stress may be a leading factor that could activate this gene, as could a neck or head injury. I'm not a big fan of screwing with perfectly good hearing by cutting anything in your head, GEEZZZ!

Itay makes some valid points as does Molan and his posts are great as well as his links to cure, but the bottom line of "cause" is the greater issue here, until we can find "cause" we will continue to kick this dead dog forever and then some. With so many theroies on why WE get individulized Tinnitus the cause may be difficult to pin point, far to many factors..age..background...health issues etc. I'm sticking with my thought that even tho we are different as humans we are all conected in by a single gene that may trigger when our DNA signals it to.

I'm also going right now with the thought that the brain CAN be retrained not to cure but to accept the noise as a non intrusive and itcant hurt you,you should and can learn to ignore that sound..the brain can be retrained to accept this sound...it'a just a noise...it's just a noise...it's just a noise......

This has been the best thread that I've followed since coming aboard....this thread is about what our community is all about......GREAT WORK PEOPLE keep looking.....

 

[Itay]

Hi,
I just found a site which re-assures my previous theory in the topic : "people who worry about their tinnitus when it starts make it last into chronic tinnitus"
http://www.kevinhogan.com/FAQ.htm - basically, all the things he says is to do everything to not focus on the tinnitus sound in order to get rid of the tinnitus or make it more silent. This is exactly the same as my theory at the top of the topic.
Obviously, not all of the tinnituses are of the same reason. But the tinnitus starter might be gone when the tinnitus still persists because of the memory that stays in the auditory cortex. The techniques in Kevin's site sounds like they might be able to unwind phantom noise overactivity in the auditory cortex. Perhaps combining various techniques such as these, with various other techniques (rTMS, vagus nerve therapy, hyperbaric chamber, sports, and other approaches) might help chronic tinnitus patients to reach full recovery.

Clearly, a difficult, difficult problem to find a solution for.

 

[jazz]

I likewise believe that a cure will address both the ear and the auditory cortex. It only makes sense that the ear continues to feed the auditory cortex damaged information, which then becomes memorized in several areas of the brain (auditory and non auditory) as a tinnitus precept. This memorization is known as "maladaptive neuroplasticity." Of course, researchers assume this maladaptive response is likewise amenable to treatment and is also reversible. Thus far, efforts have succeeded in short term reversals; more research is need to make these reversals permanent. (Specifically, I'm referring to rTMS studies and DBS, i.e., deep brain stimulation.)

But we don't need a cure to obtain significant relief from tinnitus. In the acute stages, significant relief will be what AM 101 is doing--addressing the NMDA receptors in the cochlea--or something similar. In the chronic stages, significant relief will also address the brain--both auditory and non auditory areas--utilizing neuromodulation, pharmaceuticals, or a combination.

With or without a cure, treatments should be evaluated according to tinnitus etiologies. Currently, tinnitus is divided into acute and chronic categories. Once etiology is also considered, clinical trials will improve and more robust treatments should result. For example, physicians may prescribe antiepileptic drugs for tinnitus from cochlear changes due to presbycusis, while they give muscle relaxants for tinnitus from TMJ. Neuromodulation, furthermore, may be efficacious for both groups or only for TMJ. This all sounds complex, but understanding tinnitus etiologies should simplify treatment protocols.

 

[Itay]

I think I'm feeling better.. I think that the tinnitus had decreased in it's volume and became from "mild" tinnitus to "very mild".. I don't know if I just became used to it, or that the volume really had decreased.
What I did is ultrasound to the jaw and I also ran. When I run I don't hear my tinnitus at all. Maybe physical activity can help the condition long-term (beyond the exercise itself), if the tinnitus was caused by staying relatively physically inactive in the first place. doctors deny that tinnitus could be caused by physical inactivity. But from what I dig and search over the internet, fixing the auditory nerves can be performed by fixing their metabolic surroundings. This is what doctor "Shemesh" (from Israel) approach is focused on, with combination from "Kevin's" writings about focusing less on the tinnitus. In addition, metabolic modification is what "laser therapy" claims to do. And perhaps this is what physical activity is doing as well. And perhaps this is what "hyperbaric" chamber is doing as well. Bringing more blood with more nutrients might help to fix the auditory hair cells or nerves. Very interesting.
At this point the volume of the tinnitus is so low until I don't know if I even want to try the laser because I'm afraid it will worsen the tinnitus. Any suggestions?

 

[1MW]

I have a short story..
Before some days i had to do a hearing testing/screening audiogram with my pc and i was hearing some
noise in headphones same as T.
I have checked all cables nothing has problem and after some time realise that bluetooth usb mouse tranceiver
is in a usb plug that is 3cm distance from jack socket of headphones.
I had removed usb bluetooth and the noise disappeared in headphones.
The noise in headphones (was very similar to T) was electromagnetic intereference from crosstalk.
I suppose that T had a lot to do with crosstalk between nerve fibers in acoustic nerve.
The more central gain more the crosstalk between the nerve fibers in nerve.
Central gain can triggered from a peripheral alteration to peripheral ear (outer/middle/inner).
The more stimulus more crosstalk (reactive T to noise).
This is another theory for T...

 

[Valery]

A small Ray of Hope for some ... I've had tinnitus for over 20 yrs now - a very high-pitched tone in my left ear. It nearly drove me insane initially. I have no idea what caused it. I do know, however, that over time I became less and less aware of it, and notice it now only when I am somewhere really quiet, or when I put my attention on it (like now, as I type this!). I still need some sort of background noise when going to sleep - TV, radio, music. I'd also like to add that I have learned in my life (I'm 66 now) that being anxious or tense ramps up ANY discomfort, be it tinnitus or regular old pain. The more you can learn to relax (I often use deep breathing and consciously relaxing muscles) the better off you'll be in a lot of areas in life. I'm not being dismissive of those who have a severe form of this condition and I understand that some of you might get angry that I have just said "relax." Under severe pain it would be stupid to tell someone to just relax also. I'm just suggesting it might work for some. To those who suffer greatly and constantly I have nothing but compassion and the hope that some day, someone will find the definitive cure.