Hypothetical Question — If You Could Swap Tinnitus with Certain Members of Tinnitus Talk, Would You?

Yea I suppose that's the essence of the question. What is mild and loud? To me personally I know what I'd consider mild and loud, but without comparison it has no real meaning.

I have to teach this in my lessons when we go over the dynamic marks. PPP is really really quiet, PP is really quiet, P is quiet, MP is moderately quiet, MF is moderately loud, F is loud, FF is really loud, and FFF is really really loud.

But, it's all relative. There is no definitive volume for any of those dynamics, and every student I've ever taught interprets them completely differently. But no less correctly.

That is true, but for T, in particular if it is narrowband (and, to the extreme, a pure tone), we can actually match it to a real sound in term of dB perceived, so we can match it to a scientifically measurable power output.

Scientists do that all the time in T studies, in particular to determine the evolution of the volume perception. Of course, one can claim that 5 dB is deafening, and another one that 50 dB is a whisper, but having an objective scale to compare takes away these considerations and helps us understand volume in isolation, without the subjective interpretation of it.

The second aspect of this is the actual type of T vs typical ambient noise: in many cases, T is a high frequency noise, which is spectrally quite separate from environmental noises (including voices), so it will stand out even when the environment seems loud. As an example, I hear my T when a F-22 Raptor makes a surprise fly-by with its afterburner during Fleet Week in San Francisco. And clearly, that afterburner roaring is quite loud (most people, including me, were covering their ears after the "element of surprise"), but I was clearly able to hear my T because the roar has high density of energy in the low frequencies and almost nothing in the high frequencies, where my T is located.

I have another T in the low frequencies (as part of the cocktail), and I can generally not hear it during the day because it blends well with environmental noises.

So, intrusiveness may be determined by disjointed energy distributions as much as volume. A dentist drill will stand out in my household even with the TV on. The fridge, even if it were as loud as the dentist drill (in terms of sound power emitted), would likely be drowned by the TV and be imperceptible.
 
That's so true. I also like your philosophical musings here:
I'm going to get deep here, but pretty much everything we experience is made up. Nothing about the world we perceive is real; it is all a construct of our brain presented to us the way our brain wants us to see and experience it. Colours don't exist, temperature doesn't exist (it's high and low energy), balance doesn't exist, tastes doesn't exist, shapes don't exist, etc etc. Every animal on the planet experiences the world completely differently. Think about that. A fly has such an intensive frame rate to its vision that it effectively sees the world in slow motion. All animals experience time dilation differently; the way we experience it is down to our brains. It's an extraordinary subject that has fascinated me for years. I wonder what the world really looks and sounds like if we could some how view it in an unbiased objective way. I suppose there can never be a definitive reality as even the scale we experience reality at can be vastly different, from sub atomic levels, upwards.

Some of what you mention can be measured objectively (like temperature) but other examples are what philosophers call "qualia" (like colors and tastes). Qualia are entirely subjective and thus cannot be measured.

Years ago I attended a lecture by Daniel Dennett which made a big impression on me. He discussed qualia and used the example of color. We all call the apple red, but none of us really knows what the others see. All we know is that whatever each of us sees is what each of us calls red. For all we know, we could each see something different.

By now maybe computers can detect colors and confirm that we do all see the same thing, but there are still other examples that computers (probably) cannot perceive, like taste or pain.
 
That is true, but for T, in particular if it is narrowband (and, to the extreme, a pure tone), we can actually match it to a real sound in term of dB perceived, so we can match it to a scientifically measurable power output.

Scientists do that all the time in T studies, in particular to determine the evolution of the volume perception. Of course, one can claim that 5 dB is deafening, and another one that 50 dB is a whisper, but having an objective scale to compare takes away these considerations and helps us understand volume in isolation, without the subjective interpretation of it.

The second aspect of this is the actual type of T vs typical ambient noise: in many cases, T is a high frequency noise, which is spectrally quite separate from environmental noises (including voices), so it will stand out even when the environment seems loud. As an example, I hear my T when a F-22 Raptor makes a surprise fly-by with its afterburner during Fleet Week in San Francisco. And clearly, that afterburner roaring is quite loud (most people, including me, were covering their ears after the "element of surprise"), but I was clearly able to hear my T because the roar has high density of energy in the low frequencies and almost nothing in the high frequencies, where my T is located.

I have another T in the low frequencies (as part of the cocktail), and I can generally not hear it during the day because it blends well with environmental noises.

So, intrusiveness may be determined by disjointed energy distributions as much as volume. A dentist drill will stand out in my household even with the TV on. The fridge, even if it were as loud as the dentist drill (in terms of sound power emitted), would likely be drowned by the TV and be imperceptible.

Yea, same here really. My higher sounds stand out above most things but my lower left ear, drone, can get camouflaged whenever I'm outside the house.

The closest thing we've got to 'measuring' tinnitus is via pitch matching a tone based on the sensation level. But, even this is not great. Most people are 6db sl or less. This doesn't factor in how the brain perceives the noise based on any emotional level.

Volume perception changes for everyone, like when you wake up and the TV is suddenly really loud even though it's set to a very low volume. Most people's hearing becomes more acute at certain times, and everything tends to get turned down during these moments. However, you can come back at another time and not hear a word they're saying, and have to turn it right back up again.
 
Can I swap with one of the teenagers who posted their t from a loud party went away after 5 days? I'll take that bet!
 
Some of what you mention can be measured objectively (like temperature) but other examples are what philosophers call "qualia" (like colors and tastes). Qualia are entirely subjective and thus cannot be measured.

I think you misunderstood me on the temperature thing. What I mean is that hot and cold do not exist. It's a human sensation invented in the brain to give us some biofeedback of our surroundings. Everything we perceive as reality is actually just our unique experience that is presented to us through our brain. Most of the world is made up of nothing. When we touch an object, we are mainly touching empty space from a physics point of view. But then how can one objectively measure anything through the biased lens of our minds?
 
I think you misunderstood me on the temperature thing. What I mean by that is that hot and cold doesn't exist.
Got it. That's why my DH and I can be experiencing the same temperature, but he's hot and I'm cold. We each have different perceptions of the same temperature.

But he's still wrong. ;)
 
If we could swap it temporarily for a few months I would swap with the person who has the worst description of tinnitus. As in, it basically makes them deaf and has physical symptoms to it. If I went through that torture maybe I would deem mine not as bad as it seems to me now. Plus that person would get a few months relaxation then probably.
 
If we could swap it temporarily for a few months I would swap with the person who has the worst description of tinnitus. As in, it basically makes them deaf and has physical symptoms to it. If I went through that torture maybe I would deem mine not as bad as it seems to me now. Plus that person would get a few months relaxation then probably.
That's not the mentality an MPPer should have.
 
However, we are dealing with something akin to phantom pain here.

Hi @Ed209,

I think that's an important point you make about "phantom" pain, a topic I think has potentially enormous implications. But I won't get into that topic in my reply today (another time). Instead, since you've written some things touching on the philosophical (I haven't read this whole thread), I thought I'd share a short story you might find interesting, one I heard from a new friend recently, which gave me much to think about regarding my t & h.

She belongs to the the same small (and fairly obscure) spiritual path I'm on. She told me of a time a number of years ago when she began to experience some very problematic neck pain, and asked her spiritual guides to help her "take it away". They apparently appeared to her in a dream, and explained to her that they could indeed take it away, if that was what she preferred.

However, they cautioned her that she would then not have the opportunities for spiritual growth that this experience was intended to give her. Upon hearing that, she immediately woke up from her "dream", and decided her spiritual growth was far more important to her than having her neck pain immediately resolved. Just to mention however, she still does everything she can to improve her situation. My understanding is this is how karmic patterns are normally resolved; doing our best to address whatever challenge(s) come our way.

I thought a lot about my friend's experience in the context of my own significant health challenges. I have myalgic encephalomyelitis (also known as CFS) in addition to the severe T & H I deal with. Would I exchange what I'm experiencing for somebody else's seemingly less significant challenges? I would say emphatically no, as my understanding is that what comes our way is precisely what we need at that moment in our spiritual journey. And sometimes the challenges that propel us the most spiritually, are those things we've actually earned the right to experience.

I don't expect anybody to agree with any of this, and I can understand how some would actually consider it quite foolish. But serious health challenges almost always leads to serious introspection, and my friend's story might be food for thought for those are perhaps looking for a bigger picture perspective on the extraordinary challenges t & h bring our way.

Best...​
 
What we experience as life is nothing more than neuronal activity.

I wish it weren't, but I daresay it is.

It's actually kind of amazing that such agony and ecstasy can come from a little bioelectrical activity. But it's also horrible. To be a self-conscious creature, fragile and finite, in a purely material universe seems like a cruel joke (if there can be a joke without a joker).
 
If you would like to try something really mind shaking and different, you should swap with someone that has head like an idling bus filled with bass bins.
 
In life, we should want to possibly swap for something ,that can make our lives better and more meaningful. I wouldn't want folks to go through my level of tinnitus/hearing loss and have them go through the torment it can bring. It's just not fair to them to suffer like that.

If folks don't take care of their ears and level their stress, there is no need to swap.
Louder and more menacing tinnitus/hearing loss can come into their lives.
 
I want to swap with my tinnitus from October :)
No Severe H, No Severe T like now :(
 
Anyway, I think I would want to swap with someone that only has single tone tinnitus and no hyperacusis / reactive tinnitus. If I could get rid of this hyperacusis I feel like I could live my life normally enough despite having moderate/loud tinnitus.

I have the same problem, not just noise to deal with but reactivity that now happens with most daily low frequency sounds!
Absolute nightmare!

For me this all started a year ago from noise exposure at work yet nobody believes me, even my husband doesn't believe that a car parked with engine on in front of the house will send me to realms of hell!

Not to mention appliances within the house that emit low frequency noise!
 
For me this all started a year ago from noise exposure at work yet nobody believes me, even my husband doesn't believe that a car parked with engine on in front of the house will send me to realms of hell!

Not to mention appliances within the house that emit low frequency noise!

What was the incident at work? My initial tinnitus was set off by noise exposure at work. :(

I don't know if you've looked into it already, but noise cancelling headphones (like the bose quietcomfort) are very good at canceling out low frequency noises. They aren't as good at canceling high frequency sounds, but they do about as good of job or better than my Peltor X5A's at cancelling low frequency rumbling.
 
I'd trade with anyone who doesn't have high frequency sounds. It cuts through everything. I've always wondered what kind of noise other people are hearing. Like my dad said his sounds like a bee hive and it never changes. A friend of mine said his is like keys jangling. It's hard to describe mine because its constantly changing.
 
I'd trade with anyone who doesn't have high frequency sounds. It cuts through everything. I've always wondered what kind of noise other people are hearing. Like my dad said his sounds like a bee hive and it never changes. A friend of mine said his is like keys jangling. It's hard to describe mine because its constantly changing.

How are you feeling nowadays Jake? Hope you're well bud.
 
How are you feeling nowadays Jake? Hope you're well bud.
I'm doing alright, have good and bad days like most people but for the most part I'm doing pretty good. How you doing?
 
What was the incident at work? My initial tinnitus was set off by noise exposure at work. :(

I don't know if you've looked into it already, but noise cancelling headphones (like the bose quietcomfort) are very good at canceling out low frequency noises. They aren't as good at canceling high frequency sounds, but they do about as good of job or better than my Peltor X5A's at cancelling low frequency rumbling.

I've has tinnitus since 2011 and no problems at work until we moved into a brand new building and the low frequency from aircon did something, somehow and since 20/06/17 I never recovered loudness wise but also got this "reactivnes" with LF sounds.
So everything that used to help now makes it worse.
We spent all summer at home with no aircon because I can't stand it, now in winter we are using small portable heaters because central heating is out of question.

ENT was completely dismissive and they now rejected my claim (based on his "expert opinion") that it was Work related.

What bugs me the most is not only that they are incompetent to help us but they are completely ignorant and unaware that this is so much more than some Mickey Mouse noise you live with happily ever after!
 
I'd trade with anyone who doesn't have high frequency sounds. It cuts through everything. I've always wondered what kind of noise other people are hearing. Like my dad said his sounds like a bee hive and it never changes. A friend of mine said his is like keys jangling. It's hard to describe mine because its constantly changing.

I have low frequency drone and let me tell you: it's a killer too!
It's psychical, it vibrated though my whole head, mt brain hurts from 24/7 shaking!
I sympathise with you but this is not easy either.
Damn tinnitus!
 

Log in or register to get the full forum benefits!

Register

Register on Tinnitus Talk for free!

Register Now