I Don't Hear Anything Above 16 kHz, Considered as Hearing Loss?

[Emmi]

Hello guys,

I have my T because of too loud music in a club, right now I was doing an online test for my hearing since the ENT only did the regular one up to 8khz. So I was doing one for the higher frequencies online and above 16khz I couldn't hear anything anymore.. but is this "normal" or do I have some degree of high frequency loss? I am not sure if I hear 16,5khz, since the gaps were very big.. but at 17khz I definitly didn't hear anything.

Thanks in advance
Emmi

 

[LeQuack]

Self testing is not reliable. There is hardware limitations, like the limitations of the sound processor and of course even more the limitations of the speakers/headphones. Plus background noise is almost never zero. If you really want to know if you have high frequency hearing loss you should find a specialized audiologist/ENT, as most of them will only do tests up to 8Khz.

 

[Rings-a-Bell]

I don't think adults are expected to hear much of anything above 15-18 khz. Only kids can make it to 20khz.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

this is called presbycusis. You lose roughly 1k of hearing (starting from 20hz) for every 10 years you're alive. If you're losing hearing faster than that, its noise induced most likely.

 

[Emmi]

I also asked my roommate if she is able to hear it and she actually heard less than me, so she could not even hear the 16khz tone, so of course it is not 100% reliable, but it seems that my hearing is pretty normal.. so I am wondering what is causing the Tinnitus then? Because I think I don't have any (abnormal) hearing loss. And also I would think that my T is around 9khz.. and in that range I can definitively hear fine. I thought with acoustic trauma it is like this: trauma --> hearing loss --> in the frequency range where you have loss you hear the T --> because the cells are damaged & brain produces this sound because of not working communication.

So what does cause T then when you don't have any hearing loss, but still think it was because of the loud music since it started afterwards?! I have to add that I was having a cold as well on that day and I was also pretty stressed during that time. So it was probably a mix, but still the noise was the trigger.

Just wondering, maybe someone has an explanation for it.

 

[Jacob83]

Sadly, even even the highest frquency of hearing loss can still result in tinnitus. I was a teenager when T crept in, after a night of rocking out to headphones for a couple hours. I went to an ENT a week later and he did a hearing test on me and said my hearing was perfectly nomal for my age.

The first year of T is so hard, but believe me, I went through hell accepting it, and it wasn't even a thought in my mind for more than 15 years! You can do it. Just don't become careless when you start to habituate

 

[SilverSpiral]

Learn about "hidden hearing loss".

 

[MrBonk]

It very much depends on your playback source.

I would try as many different devices as possible (Different sets of speakers/headphones/earbuds).
Playing off a phone should be ok. Most have decent enough DACs..

Most decent equipment should have no problem hitting 18+khz without issue.

I'm in a similar situation. AFIK I hear perfectly fine until about 16khz. Which rolls off and dies just after 18khz in my right ear. And dies just before 17khz in my left ear. I'm 25. Haven't gone to a concert in 7 years. Don't go out to clubs.

My T is more problematic in my right ear, which is the one that feels like the E.Tube is most messed up.
No loud noise exposure the day mine started, just one somewhat loud dog bark that day and I think that was it.

I crashed my ATV and hit my head 2-3 weeks before it started and injured my leg.. I remember being really kind of out of it after the adrenaline wore off. Was taking Acetaminophen 0.5-1G a day up until T started.

Who knows, the human body is a piece of shit. I still think mine is probably from my Sinuses. Pretty sure I have turbinate hypertrophy, symptoms started same day my T did. I can't get into an ENT for 5 months though> Which sucks.

 

[HiThere]

I don't think adults are expected to hear much of anything above 15-18 khz. Only kids can make it to 20khz.

Correct. Because of this there are municipalities and private businesses that broadcast high frequencies in outdoor areas in which younger people tend to loiter as a harmless deterrent. I am 40+ and can hear up to approximately 15,500 khz which I'm told is a bit more than what most people in my age group can hear.

 

[JasonP]

Hello guys,

I have my T because of too loud music in a club, right now I was doing an online test for my hearing since the ENT only did the regular one up to 8khz. So I was doing one for the higher frequencies online and above 16khz I couldn't hear anything anymore.. but is this "normal" or do I have some degree of high frequency loss? I am not sure if I hear 16,5khz, since the gaps were very big.. but at 17khz I definitly didn't hear anything.

Thanks in advance
Emmi

I think your hearing is probably normal for your age. These computers aren't calibrated anyway for hearing tests.

 

[yonkapin]

Ring around and try to find a place that will do a hearing test up to 20khz. I found out a hospital in my city was able to provide this test for me at no cost.

I thought my hearing was a lot worse than it actually was and still had good hearing up to around 20khz at 26 years old. Though I did have notches of -10-15db at around 12khz and 4khz.

Online tests are extremely unreliable for many reasons: hardware, headphone specifications, media compression, etc.

 

[bill 112]

@yonkapin

I can't for the life of me find anywhere in Ireland that administers such a test,it's driving me crazy trying to find at least one hospital that will do it but not even the expensive private hospitals here do it.

So far I've only been tested up to 10,000hz with no loss bi-laterally,the best I could get out of one of the hospitals was a sine wave test where they played a sine wave from 20hz up to 20,000hz at different levels and asked me to note if I experience any gaps or drops.I didn't and I could hear up to about 18,000hz bilaterally(but weaker in the left)but otherwise nothing.I don't think this was accurate enough,if I'm honest I think the audiologist just done this so I'd walk away thinking I got what I was looking for but I feel I haven't.

Can a hospitals or audiologists equipment even test up that high?And if so is it common for them to have it?

 

[Markku]

Can a hospitals or audiologists equipment even test up that high?And if so is it common for them to have it?

No it doesn't seem too common to have it, but there are audiometers capable of doing it.

Sometimes (often/always?) it requires either special calibration and/or different kind of headphones.

See for example:
http://www.otometrics.com/solutions/audiometers/pc-based-audiometry-madsen-astera-2#support

• Frequency range:

• TDH39 earphones: Standard frequencies: 125 - 12500 Hz
• HDA 200 earphones: Standard frequencies: 125 - 20000 Hz

There are other devices in the market too, you can search for "audiometer 20 kHz" on Google, for example...

 

[bill 112]

Thanks @Markku
I'd love to have one done just to get a better idea of how my full hearing spectrum is holding up,as of yet though I haven't been able to do that.....

 

[Emmi]

Thanks to all, it really seems like i don't have a loss.. I will try to do an extended hearing test until 20khz at the clinic where I am right now to be sure, but it looks like that. I was having a talk with the head physician today, he is a German leading expert in T and has done lots of research to it and he said to me my problem is definitely NOT the ear. The hyperactivity in my brain was triggered by noise but the problem I have is not damage in the ear, but stress. Because noise is also stress and I was having a very busy time when my T occurred, also I was sick. So I am starting to believe that I actually might have some kind of stress-related T and not really a noise-induced one although it was the trigger point.

 

[Sam Bridge]

@yonkapin

I can't for the life of me find anywhere in Ireland that administers such a test,it's driving me crazy trying to find at least one hospital that will do it but not even the expensive private hospitals here do it.

So far I've only been tested up to 10,000hz with no loss bi-laterally,the best I could get out of one of the hospitals was a sine wave test where they played a sine wave from 20hz up to 20,000hz at different levels and asked me to note if I experience any gaps or drops.I didn't and I could hear up to about 18,000hz bilaterally(but weaker in the left)but otherwise nothing.I don't think this was accurate enough,if I'm honest I think the audiologist just done this so I'd walk away thinking I got what I was looking for but I feel I haven't.

Can a hospitals or audiologists equipment even test up that high?And if so is it common for them to have it?

Got mine tested up to 20khz at a highstreet audiologist/hearing aid shop in the UK.

 

[Candy]

Hi Sam - which one was that? What were the findings?

 

[Vinnitus]

@Emmi
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-unexplained.17482/#post-203588

"Hidden hearing loss" might be a factor here. I have no changes in my audiogram as well when compared to the one made in 2010 (after my first tinnitus onset). The 2016 one looks the same. "Hidden hearing loss" cannot be measured by the hearing tests you get at an audiologist nowadays. It would be interesting if you could determine if your "speech-in-noise" understanding has decreased, but there are no reliable tests for that as far as I know. And you would need a point of reference (made before your noise trauma) of course...

I would advise you to read up on the work of Charles Liberman. He focuses on this type of hearing loss with his research. Read for example this: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160912151627.htm

"Hidden hearing loss," on the other hand, refers to synaptopathy, or damage to the connections between the auditory nerve fibers and the sensory cells, a type of damage which happens well before the loss of the sensory cells themselves. Loss of these connections likely contributes to difficulties understanding speech in challenging listening environments, and may also be important in the generation of tinnitus (ringing in the ears) and/or hyperacusis (increased sensitivity to sound). Hidden hearing loss cannot be measured using the standard audiogram; thus, the Mass. Eye and Ear researchers set out to develop more sensitive measures that can also test for cochlear synaptopathy.

 

[Owen]

Tinnitus and Hearing loss are commonly connected, but they do not have to be. Plenty of people have severe hearing loss without tinnitus and plenty of people have tinnitus with only mild, or unperceivable hearing loss. It is all down to how your brain interprets the inputs. Some amputees suffer from phantom limb syndrome and some don't.

 

[Vinnitus]

Tinnitus and Hearing loss are commonly connected, but they do not have to be. Plenty of people have severe hearing loss without tinnitus and plenty of people have tinnitus with only mild, or unperceivable hearing loss. It is all down to how your brain interprets the inputs. Some amputees suffer from phantom limb syndrome and some don't.

Yes, Tinnitus can form anywhere in the auditory system. However, in about 90% of the cases, Tinnitus appears to be associated with hearing loss, so that chance isn't exactly low. I agree however that theres a theory about hyperactive neurons in the brain, which might cause Tinnitus as well.

The work of Charles Liberman shows there are different types of hearing loss; sensory hearing loss, where the hair cells themselves are damaged and synaptic hearing loss, where the nerve terminals connecting to the hair cell are damaged. It appears the synapses are even more vulnerable to damage than the hair cells themselves. Hence you might have hearing loss even while the hair cells are still intact. This also explains why audiograms turn up okay for people with Tinnitus, as their hearing loss might be synaptic in nature. The synaptic type of hearing loss is a potential candidate for being the culprit of Tinnitus and/or Hyperacusis.

It is thought that age-related hearing loss without Tinnitus mainly involves loss of hair cells, but leaving the synapses intact. Those people might consequently not experience Tinnitus even though they have hearing loss. Generation of Tinnitus might thus depend on the type of hearing loss you have.

 

[Emmi]

This is so difficult to tell, but I think I don't have any hidden hearing loss either, because I understand speech well in crowded places.. with the synaptic hearing loss I can't tell.. if some kind of loss than maybe this. But the doctor is really known in Germany for Tinnitus and he assured me that he does not think that hearing loss is the cause for my T.

So I am focusing on the theory of hyperactivity in the brain due to all sorts of stress. Which somehow makes sense because my T is way smaller when I have slept a lot and generally tends to increase during the day. Also I noticed that the volume seems also much lower after I have taken Zolpidem. (sleeping pill)

Another thing I am wondering is the fullness of my ears. I didn't have that in the beginning, this just came after 6 months of T. approximately (Now I am 11 months in). I have constantly this "full" feeling and some times ear pain as well. Also it seems that I have always mucus in my throat. Can this be a sign for Eustachien Tupe Dysfunction? Or some inflammation? Took Prednisolone after the 3rd ENT visit though and that did not make any difference.

Oh man, this s*** is so complex, have no idea what else I could try. just HATE it so much.

 

[Vinnitus]

This is so difficult to tell, but I think I don't have any hidden hearing loss either, because I understand speech well in crowded places.. with the synaptic hearing loss I can't tell.. if some kind of loss than maybe this. But the doctor is really known in Germany for Tinnitus and he assured me that he does not think that hearing loss is the cause for my T.

So I am focusing on the theory of hyperactivity in the brain due to all sorts of stress. Which somehow makes sense because my T is way smaller when I have slept a lot and generally tends to increase during the day. Also I noticed that the volume seems also much lower after I have taken Zolpidem. (sleeping pill)

Another thing I am wondering is the fullness of my ears. I didn't have that in the beginning, this just came after 6 months of T. approximately (Now I am 11 months in). I have constantly this "full" feeling and some times ear pain as well. Also it seems that I have always mucus in my throat. Can this be a sign for Eustachien Tupe Dysfunction? Or some inflammation? Took Prednisolone after the 3rd ENT visit though and that did not make any difference.

Oh man, this s*** is so complex, have no idea what else I could try. just HATE it so much.

I agree this is complex matter. I am wondering about your doctor though, considering these findings are very recent information (and still in the area of research and theory) it might be your doctor is not yet up-to-date about this new theory. However, of course I have no idea about this.

I have been wondering about ear-fullness as well. Some people on this forum have said the potential cause might be simply "worry" or "stress" about your ear-situation. It's funny you mention it only came on 6 months after the trauma. Did your worry-onset perhaps coincide with these 6 months?

For me, the ear-fullness was instantaneous with the onset of the Tinnitus itself up until today. But then I started worrying as soon as the T hit me, so this also might be the case for me. I have theorised however that the fullness might be caused by inflammatory processes going on in the inner-ear after noise trauma, as studies have shown that inner-ear cell-death releases glutamate (a free radical), potentially furthering the damage to the inner-ear structures. Damage and inflammation might in turn cause swelling (which in turn might be responsible for feelings of fullness), like in any other part of our bodies... This however would show up instantly if true, and not after 6 months one would say... So that would more be an indication for the "worry" theory, or anything we don't know of yet.

I am however as much in the dark about the ear-fullness sensation as you, unfortunately...

 

[MikeP505]

We all seem to keep trying various things that might help. I don't think it's wrong to try, but in the meantime you also need to find a way to just accept this. It seems very complex as you said. Good luck and happy hunting for anything that works!!

 

[Emmi]

I agree this is complex matter. I am wondering about your doctor though, considering these findings are very recent information (and still in the area of research and theory) it might be your doctor is not yet up-to-date about this new theory. However, of course I have no idea about this.

I am also not sure to what extent I can believe that, but since he was so certain about it, I might give this "stress thing" a try. Also I read quite a few stories where noise-induced T went away through osteopathy.. I was always wondering how this can possibly help if it is noise-induced.. but if you think of noise as a general stress impulse then it makes more sense. But this would mean that there must not be a hearing loss, then you could see noise as stress and all sorts of stress give your body tension and that's maybe why it works.. but that's just guessing. Like always with T unfortunately. :/

 

[Vinnitus]

I am also not sure to what extent I can believe that, but since he was so certain about it, I might give this "stress thing" a try. Also I read quite a few stories where noise-induced T went away through osteopathy.. I was always wondering how this can possibly help if it is noise-induced.. but if you think of noise as a general stress impulse then it makes more sense. Al sorts of stress give your body tension, maybe I'll try to work on that.

I like your way of thinking. Stress indeed releases certain chemicals which can be destructive in nature if they become too numerous and consequently cannot be contained anymore. As stress is one of the theorised etiologies for Tinnitus, one could think Tinnitus is a manifestation of chemical imbalance or a consequence of it. Auditory overstimulation is indeed a type of stress (also sometimes called "auditory stress") which might create imbalances or even damage in your system in itself. I can imagine the cells can stand a certain amount of battering before they get involved in self-destructive behaviour, resulting in glutamate release upon cell death and starting the cycle of cell damage.

Question however is; if the phase of damage has been reached, does it still matter if we are able to reduce the stress and restore the chemical balance? And if this balance is restored in time, does it result in a reduction or complete elimination of Tinnitus perception? Considering the Central Nervous System is thought to not be able to restore itself, damage might not be recoverable. Is the damage however responsible for the Tinnitus or not? Or is it the chemicals and any inflammatory processes involved? Or maybe even both and the Tinnitus caused by damage will be your new baseline? If Osteopathy helps, it would suggest reducing stress results in Tinnitus abating... For some other persons Osteopathy does not work however, so maybe in those cases the damage itself is responsible for the Tinnitus perception...

And then this might vary from person to person...

The heterogeneity of Tinnitus makes it so that any way you turn will raise more questions than answers. This is one of the big issues in solving this diabolical puzzle. It is also the reason we still do not have proper diagnostic protocols, which usually precede effective treatment. I am sure however, that reducing stress will reduce your Tinnitus perception, it might not completely remove it though if there are other underlying reasons, like real damage (which will be your new "baseline").

 

[Emmi]

Auditory overstimulation is indeed a type of stress (also sometimes called "auditory stress") which might create imbalances or even damage in your system in itself.

So maybe if your T started after noise, but there hasn't been found any significant loss then this sort of "auditory stress" caused an imbalance in your brain and created some hyperactivity. (Hard to tell though if this hyperactivity causes further irreversible damage or can be resolved completely). Previous to the noise incident there might have been a lot of stress and tension in the body already and the noise incident has only been the last straw. The most popular example for this is probably Julian Cowan Hill, his T was noise induced and he could help reduce his T with Craniosacral Therapy.

I guess I really might give this a try and start with osteopathy and do muscle relaxation techniques in order to reduce some tension. Maybe it helps, would be nice.

The heterogeneity of Tinnitus makes it so that any way you turn will raise more questions than answers. This is one of the big issues in solving this diabolical puzzle. It is also the reason we still do not have proper diagnostic protocols, which usually precede effective treatment. I am sure however, that reducing stress will reduce your Tinnitus perception, it might not completely remove it though if there are other underlying reasons, like real damage (which will be your new "baseline").

That for sure is a huge problem and it is horrible how much sufferers are left alone and have to try to fix it somehow on their own. Nobody has a clue.

 

[Reinier]

I have my T because of too loud music in a club

You already linked noise exposure to your tinnitus. Is there an undeniable link between your tinnitus and noise exposure? Was the noise exposure really bad? Could you deal with it better if the tinnitus is stress related opposed to noise related?
Perhaps forget about trying to explain at this stage is better for stress.

 

[Vinnitus]

So maybe if your T started after noise, but there hasn't been found any significant loss then this sort of "auditory stress" caused an imbalance in your brain and created some hyperactivity. (Hard to tell though if this hyperactivity causes further irreversible damage or can be resolved completely). Previous to the noise incident there might have been a lot of stress and tension in the body already and the noise incident has only been the last straw. The most popular example for this is probably Julian Cowan Hill, his T was noise induced and he could help reduce his T with Craniosacral Therapy.

Yes, I have been following the story of Julian with much interest. He claims he kind of recovered from his traumas and either doesn't or barely notices his Tinnitus even though his deafness is severe... De-stressing techniques helped him recover from his Tinnitus. It is difficult to say however what part of his Tinnitus is caused by more potentially permanent factors like damage and what part is caused by stress, and IF there has been any damage done by his "loud speaker" noise exposure, because before that event he had a preceding event causing his initial Tinnitus.

Besides that, if you combine this with the recent observations and theories from Charles Liberman for example, it might be that Julian somehow has less synaptic damage and his kind of damage involves mainly the hair cells one way or another. His Tinnitus might therefore have been entirely stress-related and he might have been able to reduce this a great deal or even resolve it entirely by using techniques to de-stress.

You can see how quickly this becomes complicated and very specific to the person experiencing the Tinnitus, his type of damage (if any), stress levels, other causes, etcetera... I guess Tinnitus will turn out like this, it's a sword with a thousand edges. My point is; try an osteopath by all means and with an open mind, but don't expect miracles... Maybe it will take one of the edges off, maybe it will even eliminate your Tinnitus, in which case we would be glad to hear about your progress here.

Good luck and take care on your endeavours!

 

[Emmi]

You already linked noise exposure to your tinnitus. Is there an undeniable link between your tinnitus and noise exposure? Was the noise exposure really bad? Could you deal with it better if the tinnitus is stress related opposed to noise related?
Perhaps forget about trying to explain at this stage is better for stress.

Mine is definitively linked to noise and I was initially thinking that you can't do much if it is noise-induced since you have damaged your ears. But maybe that is not always the case - because some people seem to improve / resolve their noise-induced T with osteopathy and other things. So maybe if there is no (significant) hearing loss there still might be a little hope. I was always refusing any explanation that went towards stress, but maybe I was wrong. Maybe noise means to some extent stress. And that means something I can try to work on.

 

[Reinier]

The only link I make between stress and my tinnitus/hyperacusis and distortion is that it increase my stress. In turn, my stress makes me less resistant to my hearing problems. It is this circle I am not able to escape from yet.
But I think I know what you mean. If you think you can improve or try something to improve, you are pro active.
Something to set your hopes on.