I Hate TRT (Tinnitus Retraining Therapy)

[Michael Leigh]

If I was as good at sweeping as that assumption you made, my mom wouldn't yell at me so much.

If you had serious intrusive tinnitus I assure you that you wouldn't be on this forum to make snide remarks and have time to make cartoons...Which I thought was quite funny. That's my point. The majority of the people on this forum and me included, at this particular time do not have severe tinnitus. If any of us did, we wouldn't be able to be on a computer. You are so fortunate and don't even realize or appreciate it!

Michael

 

[fishbone]

Like it or not, Michael is a HUGE contributor to this forum. He answers PMs on a daily basis and the man KNOWS what he is talking about. Give the man the benefit of the doubt and actually listen and learn from him. Trust me he knows way more than you do and many other newcomers...

 

[threefirefour]

If you had serious intrusive tinnitus I assure you that you wouldn't be on this forum to make snide remarks and have time to make cartoons...Which I thought was quite funny. That's my point. The majority of the people on this forum and me included, at this particular time do not have severe tinnitus. If any of us did, we wouldn't be able to be on a computer. You are so fortunate and don't even realize or appreciate it!

Michael

Thanks it's low effort but I'm glad people sometimes appreciate them. Even the first subject of one. Thanks for having a sense of humor. But there's a lot more to account for with younger people on this forum. It's an internet forum so of course younger people, who are more tech-savvy are going to use it. old people are more likely to attend support groups.

Like it or not, Michael is a HUGE contributor to this forum. He answers PMs on a daily basis and the man KNOWS what he is talking about. Give the man the benefit of the doubt and actually listen and learn from him. Trust me he knows way more than you do and many other newcomers...

I would doubt that. Experience sure but in terms of raw knowledge it's pretty hard to match me in real life. Since I kind of resent it, I try to not show my knowledge power level on the internet because people like that are extremely annoying. I'm not calling Mike an idiot but I see no reason to call him a genius, or even intelligent for that matter. Just above average.

 

[Michael Leigh]

Just before Christmas a member of this forum telephoned me from overseas. This person was in such distressed state and wanted to their life. Now this is a person was suffering. This person has booked themselves into a hospital and stay there to get treatment for the tinnitus. I am waiting to hear from them.

 

[fishbone]

Thanks it's low effort but I'm glad people sometimes appreciate them. Even the first subject of one. Thanks for having a sense of humor. But there's a lot more to account for with younger people on this forum. It's an internet forum so of course younger people, who are more tech-savvy are going to use it. old people are more likely to attend support groups.


I would doubt that. Experience sure but in terms of raw knowledge it's pretty hard to match me in real life. Since I kind of resent it, I try to not show my knowledge power level on the internet because people like that are extremely annoying. I'm not calling Mike an idiot but I see no reason to call him a genius, or even intelligent for that matter. Just above average.

Where do you get raw knowledge from? You have had tinnitus maybe 2 years and the man has had it over 22+ years. Raw knowledge = Experience

Please show your knowledge but be CORRECT and FACTUAL, not just opinionated. Those 2 elements are VERY different. You are just opinionated and negative, that's not going to help people live a better life with tinnitus.

 

[threefirefour]

Where do you get raw knowledge from? You have had tinnitus maybe 2 years and the man has had it over 23+ years. Raw knowledge = Experience

Please show your knowledge but be CORRECT and FACTUAL, not just opinionated. Those 2 elements are VERY different. You are just opinionated and negative, that's not going to help people live a better life with tinnitus.

Knowledge comes from learning, and experience comes from... experience. Experience is more like wisdom. They're not the same, to the point where you can be smart but not wise/experienced, and experienced/wise, but not smart.

That being said, Mike having any authority in tinnitus doesn't come from the fact he has 20+ years of experience, but the fact he has 20+ years experience means he's more likely to be correct. So that means if he's wrong about something, then it's no better than if I was wrong about something.

And I am very negative (Which I pride myself on). Sure it won't make people with tinnitus any better off while reading my comments, but that's okay because I don't care.

 

[Michael Leigh]

Where do you get raw knowledge from? You have had tinnitus maybe 2 years and the man has had it over 23+ years. Raw knowledge = Experience

I have seen some of @threefirefour raw knowledge @fishbone. His ramblings are too confusing for me and I mean no disrespect. I don't put myself on any pedestal. I'm just a rough old carpenter and joiner that knows a few things about tinnitus. Having a list of qualifications doesn't make you intelligent. Intelligence is something that we are born with. Some of the most educated people in this world are the most stupid.

Michael

 

[threefirefour]

I have seen some of @threefirefour raw knowledge @fishbone. His ramblings too confusing for me and I mean no disrespect. I don't put myself on any pedestal. I'm just a rough old carpenter and joiner that knows a few things about tinnitus. Having a list of qualifications doesn't make you intelligent. Intelligence is something that we are born with. Some of the most educated people in this world are the most stupid.

Michael

I would care except I don't really care if people can read my comments. In the culture I grew up, the emphasis on understanding relies on the listener, not the speaker, which is how I like to comment.

You're half correct. You're not born with intelligence, but you're born with a genetic disposition to be more intelligent. That's why some people, who aren't retarded, will never become intelligent.

 

[Michael Leigh]

You're half correct. You're not born with intelligence, but you're born with a genetic disposition to be more intelligent. That's why some people, who aren't retarded, will never become intelligent.

You see my point @fishbone . All this coming from a person that is supposed to be having difficulty with tinnitus.
I rest my case and good night all.
Michael

 

[fishbone]

Knowledge comes from learning, and experience comes from... experience. Experience is more like wisdom. They're not the same, to the point where you can be smart but not wise/experienced, and experienced/wise, but not smart.

That being said, Mike having any authority in tinnitus doesn't come from the fact he has 20+ years of experience, but the fact he has 20+ years experience means he's more likely to be correct. So that means if he's wrong about something, then it's no better than if I was wrong about something.

And I am very negative (Which I pride myself on). Sure it won't make people with tinnitus any better off while reading my comments, but that's okay because I don't care.

Hmmmm, your logic makes no sense. He's been at this for over 22+ years, I'm sure he has learned, gained experience and knowledge on the topic he is discussing. Listen to him and for once stop fighting advice that can possibly help you.

Simple as that, resisting so much is just not healthy.

BTW, Go eagles!!!!!

 

[Michael Leigh]

Listen to him and for once stop fighting advice that can possibly help you.

@fishbone

Thanks your kind comments. Please read @threefirefour comments above. He prides himself on being a negative person. This person doesn't need help with tinnitus. He is here purely to stir up trouble with good people like you, myself and others.
Take care and goodnight.

 

[threefirefour]

You see my point @fishbone . All this coming from a person that is supposed to be having difficulty with tinnitus.
I rest my case and good night all.
Michael

I don't know about him but I sure don't. Some random quote doesn't prove that I'm "not having difficulty" with tinnitus. You can't accuse me of rambling and then do that. Good night.

Hmmmm, your logic makes no sense. He's been at this for over 22+ years, I'm sure he has learned, gained experience and knowledge on the topic he is discussing. Listen to him and for once stop fighting advice that can possibly help you.

Simple as that, resisting so much is just not healthy.

BTW, Go eagles!!!!!

Sorry but his advice can't help me, because that's not what I'm looking for. That's like giving me directions to the mountains when I want to go to the beach.

As for my logic it's easy:
-Him having tinnitus for longer would give him authority if he knows more than me on tinnitus.
-If he doesn't know more, then his 22+ years means nothing. Only if he has knowledge.

It was a dig because despite his so called "experience", I see him commenting things that don't make sense. I see him denying the existence of reactive tinnitus despite the evidence, thinking some magic pair of headphones will help heal hearing, and thinking people who disagree with him are trolls. I've read his articles and most are big, but empty in content, like a balloon. Some are good but others aren't informative whatsoever. I would believe he's more experienced but I need to see improvement in quality first.

 

[threefirefour]

@fishbone

Thanks your kind comments. Please read @threefirefour comments above. He prides himself on being a negative person. This person doesn't need help with tinnitus. He is here purely to stir up trouble with good people like you, myself and others.
Take care and goodnight.

"case in point"

 

[Chris Holland]

''There are two types of tinnitus habituation, habituation of reaction and habituation of perception. Habituation of reaction occurs when tinnitus no longer evokes any emotional or autonomic response, whereas habituation of perception occurs when the subject is no longer aware of tinnitus, except when focusing attention upon it. To achieve habituation, it is crucial to demystify tinnitus, to understand its correct mechanism according to the model and to change its classification from something bad or unpleasant to that of a neutral signal.''

''Habituation of tinnitus means that the tinnitus-related neuronal activity is blocked from reaching the limbic and autonomic nervous systems and consequently there are no negative reactions to tinnitus (habituation of reaction). Moreover, the auditory system is capable of blocking this tinnitus-related neuronal activity, pre- venting it from reaching higher cortical areas and thus being perceived (habituation of perception). Individuals who naturally habituate are unaware of the presence of tinnitus, except at times when they consciously focus their attention on it.''

''On many occasions, tinnitus emerges very rapidly, particularly when its per- ception is triggered by loud sounds (discos, shotguns). New, or rapidly changing, signals are always perceived and attract attention. If perception of a signal is associ- ated with high levels of emotional distress, conditioned reflexes are created, causing the tinnitus-related neuronal activity (conditioned stimulus) to evoke high levels of activation of the limbic and autonomic nervous systems (conditioned reaction). Because of the presence of feedback loops between the auditory, limbic and auto- nomic nervous systems, and also because of brain plasticity, once tinnitus acquires a negative connotation and starts to induce activation of the autonomic nervous system, it initiates a cascade of events. As a result, there is stronger and stronger activation of the limbic and autonomic nervous systems, through a conditioned reflex arc, even when the tinnitus signal remains unchanged. This phenomenon, commonly labeled as a vicious cycle''

Keep being cynical, keep being negative, all you're doing is enforcing your own negative loop ...

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Chris Holland

With respect you have written a nice post and quite informatiive. Unfortuatnely I have to disagree with you. In my opinion, and based on many years experience with tinnitus, there is only one type of habituation. Learning to live with tinnitus. When it is achieved a person will know. There is nothing complicated about habituation and the process one goes through to achieve it. However, many people new to the condition as you are, can find it daunting. It isn't but it will take time for you to realize this.

Best of luck
Michael

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Chris Holland

I forgot to mention that your last sentence is perfectly correct. One must stop being cynical and negative otherwise they will never habituate.

 

[Chris Holland]

With respect you have written a nice post and quite informatiive. Unfortuatnely I have to disagree with you. In my opinion, and based on many years experience with tinnitus, there is only one type of habituation. Learning to live with tinnitus. When it is achieved a person will know. There is nothing complicated about habituation and the process one goes through to achieve it. However, many people new to the condition as you are, can find it daunting. It isn't but it will take time for you to realize this.

Habituation of perception is real, William Shatner even mentions this, my mom has this and I've spoken personally to many people who claim the same. That being said I also spoke to people who habituated and do still perceive it also when not focussing, depends on the person (and perhaps loudness) I would assume ...

Btw, this was written by Jastreboff, not me.

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Chris Holland

I know your post was taken from Jastreboff's TRT book for I have it. Tinnitus comes in many forms and no two people experience it the same. When you habituate Chris, and I'm sure that you will for you have the right mindset. It will not matter in the slightest whether you hear your tinnitus or not because it simply wont matter. Please don't get caught up in the TRT jargon. The habituation process is nothing complicated.

Michael

 

[attheedgeofscience]

However, many people new to the condition as you are, can find it daunting. It isn't but it will take time for you to realize this.

Well, given that you still use 5-6 different "crutches" to get yourself through the average week, I guess we can add you to the list of people who continue to find it "daunting".

 

[Michael Leigh]

Well, given that you still use 5-6 different "crutches" to get yourself through the average week, I guess we can add you to the list of people who continue to find it "daunting".

I'm using up to 10 Crutches now....

 

[Chris Holland]

It will not matter is the slightest whether you hear your tinnitus or not because it simply wont matter.

I know, I would be happy one way or the other, I'll just take it as it goes.

When you habituate Chris, and I'm sure that you will for you have the right mindset

Thank you

 

[attheedgeofscience]

I'm using up to 10 Crutches now....

Well, tinnitus – like "self-deceit" – is known to be pretty hard to cure.

 

[threefirefour]

Keep being cynical, keep being negative, all you're doing is enforcing your own negative loop ...

Well I actually have a goal, so I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing thank you very much. Look out for yourself.

 

[dpdx]

I am starting TRT in February.

 

[brownbear]

Well I actually have a goal, so I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing thank you very much. Look out for yourself.

I admire your ability to keep trying to solve your T. I didn't have the mental strength to keep being disappointed by my attempts to solve it. Hope things improve for you.

 

[Michael Leigh]

I am starting TRT in February.

I advise you not to discuss your TRT treatment in this forum...

 

[Lebber]

TRT is just a glorified scam that sells a natural process. What pisses me off about it is not that people waste their money, a fool is easily parted with their money. It's that our government (US) chooses to fund TRT for vets instead of actually funding research for a cure. It's been around for 30 years, and it's still the """""best""""" treatment we've got. It's almost if you get what you pay for. I hope they all go out of business TRT makes me so mad

Dear threefirefour,

With all due respect, I go with what some people said above. Namely, that it is all about mindset. Although i don't have experience in trt. I have given a lot of cbt treatment. Once again, i do not want to attack you verbally in any way but i feel that your mindset about trt is that is is some form of insta cure or insta habituation.
When you go to a psychologist 90% of the succes of treatment comes from the client himself. When i meet a new client i often tell them the following metaphor.

You find yourself in a deep pit (tinnitus) where you cant climb out. But there is a shovel (cure) next to you. So you try to dig a tunnel to get out of that pit. Eventually you realise you have even dug yourself further in and call the help of a counsler/psycholgist or wathever, with the expectation that that person will bring you a fancy gold plated shovel with your name engraved in it. But with that you will just dig yourself deeper. So instead of that he throws a rope (habituation). The only way to get out of that pit is if you climb out yourself. He does not have the means to pull you put. He can only hold the rope for you.

In short. Trt can give you tools to achieve habituation but the effort has to come from you. If you dont then trt is indeed a waste of money.

I wish you all the best. And dont lose hope. I strongly believe this can be cured one day. Medical science is advancing so fast its almost absurd. But for now we have to plow through and make the best of it.

 

[threefirefour]

Dear threefirefour,

With all due respect, I go with what some people said above. Namely, that it is all about mindset. Although i don't have experience in trt. I have given a lot of cbt treatment. Once again, i do not want to attack you verbally in any way but i feel that your mindset about trt is that is is some form of insta cure or insta habituation.
When you go to a psychologist 90% of the succes of treatment comes from the client himself. When i meet a new client i often tell them the following metaphor.

You find yourself in a deep pit (tinnitus) where you cant climb out. But there is a shovel (cure) next to you. So you try to dig a tunnel to get out of that pit. Eventually you realise you have even dug yourself further in and call the help of a counsler/psycholgist or wathever, with the expectation that that person will bring you a fancy gold plated shovel with your name engraved in it. But with that you will just dig yourself deeper. So instead of that he throws a rope (habituation). The only way to get out of that pit is if you climb out yourself. He does not have the means to pull you put. He can only hold the rope for you.

In short. Trt can give you tools to achieve habituation but the effort has to come from you. If you dont then trt is indeed a waste of money.

I wish you all the best. And dont lose hope. I strongly believe this can be cured one day. Medical science is advancing so fast its almost absurd. But for now we have to plow through and make the best of it.

Your analogy makes no sense. If the shovel is a cure then why would it make the problem worse?

I advise you not to discuss your TRT treatment in this forum...

I agree. We shouldn't encourage expensive pseudoscience.

 

[Michael Leigh]

I agree. We shouldn't encourage expensive pseudoscience.

That isn't what I meant @threefirefour. With respect, it is people like you with your negative mindset towards TRT who have never tried it want to convince others that it doesn't work. There is also an element of jealousy. For some people are able to get this treatment and people like yourself cant for one reason or another. Therefore, you will try your best to convince people like @dpdx that it doesn't work. This can have a detrimental effect on their progress if they take this criticism on board. I have had the treatment twice and know that it works. It is not a cure, but it many cases such as mine it can lower the tinnitus substantially or one's perception of it, allowing them to carry on with life doing everything that they want to. My hyperacusis was completely cured with TRT and remained this way 19 years on.

Best of luck @dpdx Please remember not to mention any more about TRT until you've finished your treatment.
Michael

 

[Lebber]

Because its a futile attemp to find a cure that does not excist. You are just mentally exhausting yourself with it and thus creating a downwards spiral.

But i see that you really dont want to listen to people who want to help. So i guess explaining is also futile.