Is Age-Related Hearing Loss (Losing Uppermost 20 kHz and Going Downward) Preventable?

[Keiv]

Just curious if we start to lose our really high frequency 8khz-20khz with age? So we can't hear 15khz by the time we are in our 50s?

Then by the time we can only hear up to 10khz, is it the time when our speech range will be affected by age-related hearing loss right? And this is primarily inevitable due to aging?

 

[bwspot]

I dont believe so. I believe that sounds that are around us make the loss happen but we could be aware from early ages we could prevent this and still hear very well. I am 39 and i still can hear up to 18400 although i have a slight drop in my left ear around 12000. If i would be lucky and if I would be surounded by smart people I would have known how to protect my hearing. I always was cautios but not enough due to lack of knowledge on this topic. I took hearing for granted. Imagine you take a hammer and keep banging your knee with it every day. Not hard but little hard and some days harder. Will your knee stay healthy? I don't think so. At some point you will reach its limits and you would brake it unless your knee is very strong.

 

[Telis]

I think a healthy diet and clean living will help. Stay away from drugs/chemicals and stress. Noise may be a slight factor as well but somehow I doubt it, If you are healthy you can take a shit ton of noise every day within reason with no issue, seen it a million times. I have musician friends that take in no drugs/chemicals, live clean and healthy life that have almost perfect hearing up to 20khz at age 40 yet they trash their ears almost every day for years. I'm not sold on the noise theory, I doubt it is a major factor, I've seen it proven wrong WAY too many times.

 

[Asian]

I think a healthy diet and clean living will help. Stay away from drugs/chemicals and stress. Noise may be a slight factor as well but somehow I doubt it, If you are healthy you can take a shit ton of noise every day within reason with no issue, seen it a million times. I have musician friends that take in no drugs/chemicals, live clean and healthy life that have almost perfect hearing up to 20khz at age 40 yet they trash their ears almost every day for years. I'm not sold on the noise theory, I doubt it is a major factor, I've seen it proven wrong WAY too many times.

I completely agree with you. There are millions upon millions around the world who rattle their ears everyday and explode them with sound day and night. They aren't even aware of their ears and treat them like shit! Yet nothing happens to them. I am so pissed off with the hair cells damage bullshit theory now. Tinnitus is much more complex than that. I guess we are just prone to this cursed condition than the rest of the world. It strikes us any moment and BAM! Keep it for the rest of your life now. How fair is it? It's a shame and disgusts me that the medical world wasted so many decades and was silent to this terrible condition and did nothing about it.

 

[Silvio Sabo]

I completely agree with you. There are millions upon millions around the world who rattle their ears everyday and explode them with sound day and night. They aren't even aware of their ears and treat them like shit! Yet nothing happens to them. I am so pissed off with the hair cells damage bullshit theory now. Tinnitus is much more complex than that. I guess we are just prone to this cursed condition than the rest of the world. It strikes us any moment and BAM! Keep it for the rest of your life now. How fair is it? It's a shame and disgusts me that the medical world wasted so many decades and was silent to this terrible condition and did nothing about it.

I don't think you can exclude noise as a factor like that. We are all different and have different tolerances. There are people that have survived exposure to radiation, that smoke, drink alcohol and so on and so on that never get cancer and still manage to live up to their 90's and then you have poor ones that die from a cold. It has a lot to do with luck and genetics.

 

[linearb]

I think a healthy diet and clean living will help. Stay away from drugs/chemicals and stress. Noise may be a slight factor as well but somehow I doubt it, If you are healthy you can take a shit ton of noise every day within reason with no issue, seen it a million times. I have musician friends that take in no drugs/chemicals, live clean and healthy life that have almost perfect hearing up to 20khz at age 40 yet they trash their ears almost every day for years. I'm not sold on the noise theory, I doubt it is a major factor, I've seen it proven wrong WAY too many times.

I suspect the story will change when they are 50 or 60; beyond that, a large number of people (including me!) first got, or worsened T following a loud noise event -- and almost everyone I know who went to a lot of concerts in their teens and 20s has some limited degree of tinnitus.

 

[Telis]

I suspect the story will change when they are 50 or 60; beyond that, a large number of people (including me!) first got, or worsened T following a loud noise event -- and almost everyone I know who went to a lot of concerts in their teens and 20s has some limited degree of tinnitus.

I think that noise can be a trigger event but I still think it is more of a brain instability caused by medications, street drugs, alcohol, stress etc. the brain is in a weakened state from a toxic life and it just goes haywire when noise is introduced.

I have seen just way to many people with healthy lifestyles torture the shit out of their ears with sound and have perfect hearing, this includes family members in their 60's and 70's. On the flip side almost everyone I encounter with tinnitus and hearing loss has some history of stress, drug use, alcohol use, cigarettes, anxiety, depression, antibiotic use, OTC meds, maybe subjected to toxic fumes etc etc.

Where you taking medication when you had your noise trauma?

I say look at how toxic your life is/was, not the amount of sound you have subjected yourself to.

I lived a really really clean life prior to T, great diet, extremely fit, tolerated stress no problem. I used to go to clubs all night 3 or 4 times a week. We are talking 20 years of this. I was in the audio industry as well subjected to mind blowing sound at times, I had never one time in my life had my ears ring. Up until onset of T (39 years old) I had audio file type hearing. It was only until I had barotrauma and took a cocktail of ototoxic drugs for my ears that I lost my hearing and experienced ringing in my ears. Prior to T I used to lay in the bathtub with my ears submerged in water to experience close to dead silence, not a single sound in my brain. At night I could hear a pin drop in my basement, my ears were killer.

This is just my observation, experience and opinion. I won't debate this as I could be wrong.

 

[bwspot]

I was like you util the onset of T at 38. So maybe this is when the overuse was too much to handle.

 

[Telis]

I was like you util the onset of T at 38. So maybe this is when the overuse was too much to handle.

no I had physical damage to my ears, they were ruptured and bleeding. I took ciprodex ear drops combined with other drugs for my ears and lost about a 3rd of my hearing in a night, nothing to do with acoustic trauma and noise.


And I thought you had mentioned in some of your posts that you had some mental issues prior to T? Depression or anxiety? Were you run down? Sick at the time? Stressed out? Taken any meds in the last few years prior to T onset? Exposed to any toxins?

 

[Telis]

I just feel there is more to this than noise. Otherwise all these pro athletes would have tinnitus, especially indoor sports like hockey, tinnitus would be a major issue or at least one of players would complain of it, yet I can't find a single player with it unless it's due to blows to the head. The crowd noise gets as loud as a concert, 130db and louder. Some of these players do this for 20 years a few times a week!. They are screaming in each others ears, pucks hitting glass at high speeds. Just a slap shot alone would be considered unsafe yet nothing, where are all the current or ex players with T and hearing loss? I'm a huge hockey fan and can't think of one old time player with a hearing aid or T. Why is this? Maybe because they are healthy athletes? Something doesn't add up.

 

[Dr. Ancill]

Age-Related hearing loss is just that - related to your age. If it is going to happen there is nothing you can do about it.....sorry!! However, you can make it occur earlier or worsen it with the usual culprits: unprotected work environments, ototoxic drugs, etc.. There is also the argument that many more people actually have tinnitus but it remains largely below their level of perception so they never really notice it until it worsens later in life.

 

[linearb]

I just feel there is more to this than noise. Otherwise all these pro athletes would have tinnitus, especially indoor sports like hockey, tinnitus would be a major issue or at least one of players would complain of it, yet I can't find a single player with it unless it's due to blows to the head. The crowd noise gets as loud as a concert, 130db and louder. Some of these players do this for 20 years a few times a week!. They are screaming in each others ears, pucks hitting glass at high speeds. Just a slap shot alone would be considered unsafe yet nothing, where are all the current or ex players with T and hearing loss? I'm a huge hockey fan and can't think of one old time player with a hearing aid or T. Why is this? Maybe because they are healthy athletes? Something doesn't add up.

I bet a lot of them do have tinnitus; I forget how common this is, and lots of people just aren't prone to being bothered by it the same way I am.

Case in point: on a walk to a restaurant today, I bitched about a plane flying overhead and one of my coworkers said "well, with all the jet noise, I can't hear the ringing in my ears..."

 

[Telis]

I bet a lot of them do have tinnitus; I forget how common this is, and lots of people just aren't prone to being bothered by it the same way I am.

Case in point: on a walk to a restaurant today, I bitched about a plane flying overhead and one of my coworkers said "well, with all the jet noise, I can't hear the ringing in my ears..."

Haha... Lucky guy to not be bothered by that.

I know a lot of people that have it too but they always say they can only hear it dead quiet spots and they really have to work hard to hear it.

 

[Keiv]

Guys also take a look at this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2868117/

This goes to further kinda support telis, asian, and bwspot's ssuggestions that noise isnt a big contributor to aging. that in fact, it is lifestyle (diet, stress,etc.)...

Hey telis, bwspot and asian, can you guys give examples of people you know that trash their hearing yet have perfect hearing 250-8khz and also can hear really high frequency up to approximately 18khz?

 

[Keiv]

Actually i also saw one post on here by xanaxvictim who posted her audiogram and she can hear up to 20khz at 10 db! Let me message her and see if we can get detail on her lifestyle ...

the idea I want to get out of this is to get many stories and examples see we can learn how to prevent aging-hearing loss and also noise induced hearing loss!

 

[Keiv]

There seem to be 2 hearing loss types we need to prevent! the first is the 4khz noise notch, usually due to the anatomy of the cochlea, if you were exposed to significant noise, usually it will be a notch at 4khz...and recover at 8khz.

And then there is the second hearing loss-aging-related hearing loss which starts from steepens at 20khz and slowly it is a downward slope that gradually go down to 12khz,10khz, until it hits 8khz at 60db, then 6khz will be around 40khz and you get aging-related hearing loss (presbycusis)...

So that's the idea behind why i wanna make this thread, lets gather examples and stories of people you know who are well in their 50s, 60s,70s, who have perfect hearing from 250-8khz (speech range), but also can hear way up there from 8khz to 18khz (ultra-high frequency range) and learn about their lifestyle in general



Because there is science to guide us in preventing aging-related hearing loss,we tend to listen to doctors and generalized medical assumptions that people who are in certain age range can only hear up to certain high frequency aka, if you are 40 years old, you can only hear up to 14khz...And if you are 60 years old, you can only hear up to 12khz...But, let's not buy into that in this post (sorry Dr. Ancill) because most people on average are not in ideal health.

So I feel this is the only way we can learn how to prevent aging related hearing loss since there's no data to tell us how to do it, and all data points to say that it is inevitable, but yet there are few people that are exceptions to the norms who are in their 80s and can hear up to 19khz. So let's try to post as many examples and stories we know of people who are in their 40s,50s,60s and can hear way up there with really good hearing....Let's make this thread into a how to prevent hearing loss thread the right way!

And I know there is a thread that talks about NAC and people who take it daily, but you know, that's not good, as far as I am concern, the long-term is gonna be toxic towards your health, even though it is a health supplement, I just feel we can do this with just diet, and we don't have to worry about any side-effect in the long run.

 

[Silvio Sabo]

Where you taking medication when you had your noise trauma?

No, I have never taken any medications prior to the onset of my T. I generally were never sick before my T. started (and still rarely am).

I say look at how toxic your life is/was, not the amount of sound you have subjected yourself to.

I had perfect health, was 22 years old at the time and was in great physical shape. I have never smoked, never taken any drugs and drank alcohol occasionally (a couple of times per year, f.e. New Year etc.) and within limits.

I did however visit night clubs quite frequently (a few times per month) when I was about 19-21. In the last year or so prior to the onset of my T. I actually had stopped visiting night clubs that frequently. But I know that I had ringing in my ears for about a day or so a number of times previously when I came home from a night club. Yeah, I know it was extremely stupid but I was young and dumb and uninformed.

I lived a really really clean life prior to T, great diet, extremely fit, tolerated stress no problem. I used to go to clubs all night 3 or 4 times a week. We are talking 20 years of this. I was in the audio industry as well subjected to mind blowing sound at times, I had never one time in my life had my ears ring. Up until onset of T (39 years old) I had audio file type hearing. It was only until I had barotrauma and took a cocktail of ototoxic drugs for my ears that I lost my hearing and experienced ringing in my ears. Prior to T I used to lay in the bathtub with my ears submerged in water to experience close to dead silence, not a single sound in my brain. At night I could hear a pin drop in my basement, my ears were killer.

This is just my observation, experience and opinion. I won't debate this as I could be wrong.

Well once again you are sort of proving my point. I see it a little like this. Every time you f.e. go to a night club or fire a gun without protection. You are drawing a ticket in the tinnitus lottery. You might get unlucky and get it the first time, or you might get it the 1000th time or as some that are very lucky don't even get it the 100 000th time. The same goes for cancer, every cell-division is a potential cancer cell so some get it when they're 20 and some die without ever getting it but if we live long enough we would all eventually develop cancer. Then there are those that are prone to developing cancer due to poor genetics and those who are less prone to developing it due to good genetics. But all it does is increase or decrease the chance. And then exposure to radiation and toxins increase the number but still doesn't mean you will definitely get it, just like noise and tinnitus.

So you getting it when you were 39 and not earlier with the amount of noise you exposed yourself to is because you have good genes or were a bit lucky or a combination of both. I imagine that a lot of people would have got it a lot earlier if they lived the life you have. And then a few might have been able to live to their 90's and never get it (very few though).

And when you say you had good hearing it's really a subjective view. I don't have any problems with my hearing. I can hear someone knocking on the door two rooms away with all doors closed in those rooms and with 5 people talking in the room I am in (this actually happened a few weeks ago at my office and I was complemented for my good hearing ). What I do have a problem with is tinnitus.
Now, I am well aware that I probably have some damage in the high frequency range but that is not something that one really is able to notice.

The range up to 8000 hz is the one we use the most and you have to do A LOT of damage before you start noticing hearing impairment in everyday life (that is if you started out with normal hearing and don't have any genetic predisposition for hearing loss).

 

[linearb]

Guys also take a look at this http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2868117/

This goes to further kinda support telis, asian, and bwspot's ssuggestions that noise isnt a big contributor to aging. that in fact, it is lifestyle (diet, stress,etc.)...

What? I don't think it does; it says it is multifactor, but that noise is a significant factor, and that was supported by the animal research they did.

Since an individual's ARHL was determined largely by genetics and history of deleterious auditory exposures, the only way to prevent ARHL was minimizing ototraumatic exposures during the lifespan. Such a notion was confirmed in Mongolian gerbil animal model of ARHL (described below). Raising the animals in quiet, versus a moderate noise level of 85 dB SPL, led to lower hearing thresholds, less OHC loss, and greater preservation of tone-tone suppression, as compared with animals raised in the noisy condition (Schmiedt et al., 1990).

Research into pure hearing loss doesn't seem likely to tell us much of use about tinnitus, since tinnitus is not an inherent consequence of HL, nor is the degree of HL someone has necessarily indicative of their tinnitus. We have plenty of people on here with loud tinnitus and mild HL; I know several people with severe HL and moderate tinnitus.

HL = damage to the hearing apparatus
tinnitus = loss of gray matter or broken GABA-mediated inhibition in the thalamus and insula

 

[Telis]

No, I have never taken any medications prior to the onset of my T. I generally were never sick before my T. started (and still rarely am).



I had perfect health, was 22 years old at the time and was in great physical shape. I have never smoked, never taken any drugs and drank alcohol occasionally (a couple of times per year, f.e. New Year etc.) and within limits.

I did however visit night clubs quite frequently (a few times per month) when I was about 19-21. In the last year or so prior to the onset of my T. I actually had stopped visiting night clubs that frequently. But I know that I had ringing in my ears for about a day or so a number of times previously when I came home from a night club. Yeah, I know it was extremely stupid but I was young and dumb and uninformed.




Well once again you are sort of proving my point. I see it a little like this. Every time you f.e. go to a night club or fire a gun without protection. You are drawing a ticket in the tinnitus lottery. You might get unlucky and get it the first time, or you might get it the 1000th time or as some that are very lucky don't even get it the 100 000th time. The same goes for cancer, every cell-division is a potential cancer cell so some get it when they're 20 and some die without ever getting it but if we live long enough we would all eventually develop cancer. Then there are those that are prone to developing cancer due to poor genetics and those who are less prone to developing it due to good genetics. But all it does is increase or decrease the chance. And then exposure to radiation and toxins increase the number but still doesn't mean you will definitely get it, just like noise and tinnitus.

So you getting it when you were 39 and not earlier with the amount of noise you exposed yourself to is because you have good genes or were a bit lucky or a combination of both. I imagine that a lot of people would have got it a lot earlier if they lived the life you have. And then a few might have been able to live to their 90's and never get it (very few though).

And when you say you had good hearing it's really a subjective view. I don't have any problems with my hearing. I can hear someone knocking on the door two rooms away with all doors closed in those rooms and with 5 people talking in the room I am in (this actually happened a few weeks ago at my office and I was complemented for my good hearing ). What I do have a problem with is tinnitus.
Now, I am well aware that I probably have some damage in the high frequency range but that is not something that one really is able to notice.

The range up to 8000 hz is the one we use the most and you have to do A LOT of damage before you start noticing hearing impairment in everyday life (that is if you started out with normal hearing and don't have any genetic predisposition for hearing loss).

I had perfect hearing up to almost 20khz, I was in the audio industry for years, I knew my hearing very well. I had never had ringing in my life after noise exposure. In my case noise was never a factor.

I had barotrauma, ruptured ear drums, which gave me very minor ringing. Only until I took ciprodex ear drops combined with other drugs did I loose a lot of hearing (in my upper range) and get really bad T. Again mine had zero to do with noise. Maybe yours did, I guess that's what I'm interested in. I dont understand why people like myself and most other people can be around noise and never have a issue with hearing loss or T.

Everyone I know goes to concerts, clubs, pubs, hockey games, loud parties and gigs etc etc on regular basis, like EVERYONE I know, it's how people live their lives from where I'm from, yet 9 out of 10 people I know have zero T, even the older folks. I do know some people with minor T but I'm talking T so low they have to concentrate in dead quiet to try and hear it. Prior to my own tinnitus, I had never even heard of tinnitus, I didn't know ringing in the ears exsisted, like I say I had never experienced it myself. I had heard some people say their ears rang at times but I thought that they meant for a minute or two.

Noise is definitely a factor but I think that there are larger contributing factors here, otherwise chronic T would be more common, hell everyone I know would have it, this is definately not the case.

 

[Xorthian]

@Telis
Did you use those drops in both ears and lost hearing in both or only one and lost hearing only in one from ciprodex?
How long between burst ear drum and ciprodex has passed?

 

[Telis]

@Telis
Did you use those drops in both ears and lost hearing in both or only one and lost hearing only in one from ciprodex?
How long between burst ear drum and ciprodex has passed?

Both ears, only days had passed, my ears were still a mess. The doctor didn't want them to get infected I guess. I had no idea about potential ototoxic side effects. Stupid me.

 

[linearb]

Noise is definitely a factor but I think that there are larger contributing factors here, otherwise chronic T would be more common, hell everyone I know would have it, this is definately not the case.

I think we're conflating two very different things in this thread. I think that noise exposure, over a certain level, is very clearly connected to hearing loss. However, the connection between hearing loss and tinnitus seems a lot more complex and nuanced, and I think it's probably accurate to say that at least in most cases, tinnitus is a brain problem and not an ear problem.

 

[Telis]

Case in point: on a walk to a restaurant today, I bitched about a plane flying overhead and one of my coworkers said "well, with all the jet noise, I can't hear the ringing in my ears..."

Since you mentioned this I keep thinking of this every time a plane passes low, I didn't pay much attention to it before, I would just cover my ears because it hurt. I left uncovered a few times to see what would happen. I get this pressurized feeling in my head, my ears get all distorted and my T just competes with the noise. I can hear my T better with the plane noise than I can without, I'm not exaggerating in any way. It's not like my T covers the plane noise, I hear it loud and clear, I can hear both the T and plane noise at the same time and my T just starts screaming. Somehow this type of noise drives my T way up. Yet I don't experience this when I'm in the shower, the shower feels good, a little loud but kind of nice on the ears and masks my T unless I search for it. I wonder why such a difference.

 

[Nucleo]

Research into pure hearing loss doesn't seem likely to tell us much of use about tinnitus, since tinnitus is not an inherent consequence of HL, nor is the degree of HL someone has necessarily indicative of their tinnitus. We have plenty of people on here with loud tinnitus and mild HL; I know several people with severe HL and moderate tinnitus.

And there was also a post where someone hard ''normal'' hearing up to 20 khz and still had tinnitus.

 

[Lisa88]

Have always wondered why audigrams measure hearing from 250Hz, when most male conversation levels fall below that point. Hmmm ...

 

[Vinnitus]

While browsing I found this piece of text, from 2000. Allegedly written by a PhD. It's about how relevant noise-exposure is to developing hearing impairments.

Myth 5: All loud leisure noise is dangerous noise.

I blame the media and gullible experts for this. There is a tendency among nonprofessionals to consider only the level of noise exposure, and not the duration of exposure, in considering risk. There is also a bit of sensationalizing by the media, and even governmental agencies about the risks of nonoccupational exposure. A list provided by the National Institute for Deafness and Other Communication Disorders warns that rock concerts are ''130 dB SPL''. The value cited by NIDCD as 'representative' is the highest level I have ever seen reported for rock concert noise (see below for a better assessment). Finally, there is confusion about the annoyance and temporary effects of a loud exposure (e.g., TTS, tinnitus, fullness, communication interference) which are widespread, and the true risk of sustaining a permanent, material impairment in hearing, which is minimal. The former is enough reason to limit or prevent the exposure; it is not necessary to falsely invoke the latter as justification for eliminating the exposure.

Among the sources of noise outside the workplace that fall into what I consider the ''minimal risk'' category are those associated with listening to amplified music. A large body of research details exposures to individuals attending rock concerts and noisy discotheques. An analysis of all the data indicated the geometric mean of all published sound levels from rock concerts was 103.4 dBA8 .Hence, it is reasonable to conclude that attendees at rock concerts are routinely exposed to sound levels above 100 dBA. Studies of temporary threshold shift (TTS) after exposure to rock music have most often considered only the hearing levels of performers; a few studies have shown TTSs in listeners attending rock concerts. Generally, these studies show that most listeners sustain moderate TTSs (up to 30 dB at 4 kHz), and recover within a few hours to a few days after the exposure. The risk of sustaining a permanent hearing loss from attending rock concerts is small, and is limited to those who frequently attend such events. However, attendance at rock concerts remains an important contributor to cumulative noise dose for many Americans.

Of course this all predates the discovery of "hidden hearing loss" and how easy it is to acquire that. He states here that the risk of a permanent impairment in hearing due to exposure to amplified music is "minimal". I hope he revised his opinion by now.

http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/five-myths-in-assessing-effects-1292

 

[Kazue]

Nope. It's not possible to stop this unless you've been wearing ear protection since birth. Aging naturally occurred so you will lose some of your hearing regardless. An healthy lifestyle could help prevent it but not stop it.

 

[stophiss]

Since you mentioned this I keep thinking of this every time a plane passes low, I didn't pay much attention to it before, I would just cover my ears because it hurt. I left uncovered a few times to see what would happen. I get this pressurized feeling in my head, my ears get all distorted and my T just competes with the noise. I can hear my T better with the plane noise than I can without, I'm not exaggerating in any way. It's not like my T covers the plane noise, I hear it loud and clear, I can hear both the T and plane noise at the same time and my T just starts screaming. Somehow this type of noise drives my T way up. Yet I don't experience this when I'm in the shower, the shower feels good, a little loud but kind of nice on the ears and masks my T unless I search for it. I wonder why such a difference.

Telis,
You know a lot about this disorder and will simply give you my opinion. I believe the answer is because the frequency range of your T and the frequency range of the aircraft (much lower Hz) are dramatically different and why you can hear both simultaneously. It is like a chord on a piano.

By contrast, taking a shower....the shower head hiss with water emitting is closer to the frequency range your brain hears due to T. This is why taking a shower is much more acceptable than hearing a plane pass over...that and a plane is louder in terms of dB. Btw, my reaction to both is same as yours.
Cheers.