Isn't It OK to Use Headphones Even at Low Volume?

[Rick Austin]

I used to max out on volume before but once i realized it was harmful and already suffering the consequences I turned my music wayyyy down. Like, listening to everything near muted low. But still enough to hear the music of course, and only listening in a quiet room so I don't have to turn it up over anything else.

Should I stop even that? I always thought it was ok, but what do you guys think?

 

[Red]

Using headphones at low volume is how I got tinnitus. All volumes on sound mixer, programs, and headphones were always at about 5%...and I am still here!

 

[Michael Leigh]

I used to max out on volume before but once I realized it was harmful and already suffering the consequences I turned my music wayyyy down. Like, listening to everything near muted low. But still enough to hear the music of course, and only listening in a quiet room so I don't have to turn it up over anything else.

Should I stop even that? I always thought it was ok, but what do you guys think?

If you continue to use headphones even at low volume then you are asking for nothing but trouble. Please click on the links below and read my articles on tinnitus. A piece on headphone use is included in the article.

Michael

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-a-personal-view.18668/

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hyperacusis-as-i-see-it.19174/

 

[glynis]

My view and also the advice from Professor David Bagualy
( Professor in Hearing Sciences, Faculty of Medicine & Health Sciencesis ) that using earphones is ok on the lowest setting possible for masking tinnitus with white noise or natural sounds etc is ok but would limit the time and just for when your struggling to cope till see ENT or Audiology and not for night time as pilliow speakers then are needed.
Love glynis

 

[Michael Leigh]

David Bagualy is that using earphones is ok on the lowest setting possible for masking tinnitus with white noise or natural sounds etc is ok but would limit the time and just for when your struggling to cope till see ENT or Audiology and not for night time as pilliow speakers then are needed.

Dear @glynis
We have known each other for years and speak regularly on the telephone. Whilst Mr David's Bagualy advice may be correct when referring to people using headphones whose tinnitus wasn't caused by "loud noise" I do not agree for people to use them whose tinnitus was caused by "loud noise" no matter how low the volume is set. It is true, some people with noise induced tinnitus use headphones without any problems but I strongly advise against it. Furthermore, I respect Mr David Baguly as a physician and he may know all about the anatomy of the ear, and be able to treat it medically or surgically. However, unless he has experienced loud intrusive tinnitus he will not have any idea how debilitating this condition can be for someone. This is something that I feel very passionate about as far too many Healthcare professionals and ENT doctors, tell tinnitus patients it's okay to use headphones at low volume and in my opinion, is the wrong advice to give out.

There are many posts in this forum from people using headphones at low volume after they have habituated, only to find their tinnitus has got worse. Someone phoned me yesterday evening complaining of this exact thing.
Michael

 

[Bill Bauer]

The possible harm is not worth the benefit...

 

[Jordyn]

i think headphones caused mine. i used them at the gym to focus on not ending my life on the treadmill. i dont use them anymore - the headphones or the treadmill.

 

[Michael Leigh]

i think headphones caused mine. i used them at the gym to focus on not ending my life on the treadmill. i dont use them anymore - the headphones or the treadmill.

Headphones are dangerous @Jordyn and any doctor that says it's alright for a person with "noise induced" tinnitus to use them even at low volume, clearly knows very little about noise induced tinnitus. Granted, he or she knows about the anatomy of the ear and how to treat it medically or surgically but they are not tinnitus experts. Most know very little about the condition.

Michael

 

[glynis]

Dear Michael,
My question to David Bagualy was aimed about all the people whom could not afford maskers or hearing aids and so desperate for help !
Also the same reply from Audiology.
Like I said it was not for personal daily use only white noise etc.
Our views are equally important and the authour can take on board what we say.
Love Glynis

 

[Michael Leigh]

Dear Michael,
My question to David Bagualy was aimed about all the people whom could not afford maskers or hearing aids and so desperate for help !
Also the same reply from Audiology.
Like I said it was not for personal daily use only white noise etc.
Our views are equally important and the authour can take on board what we say.
Love Glynis

I hear you @glynis. and respect your views. I still don't advise anyone that has "noise induced" tinnitus, to listen to any form of audio through headphones even at the lowest setting. However, for those that have tinnitus which was not caused by loud noise, I believe that it's okay to listen to this form of therapy through headphones but I still advise caution.

Take care
Michael

 

[GregCA]

Should I stop even that? I always thought it was ok, but what do you guys think?

I've been told by my doctors (ENT docs, audiologists, T specialist at UCSF, my neurotologist/surgeon) that it was OK, as long as the volume was kept in check.
Most of them even recommended that I kept listening to music with them. I've been doing that for a year and a half so far with success, but I am very disciplined about volume.

So my recommendation for you is to talk to your doctors and take internet advice with a grain of salt, as it's often worth the money you paid for it.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I've been told by my doctors (ENT docs, audiologists, T specialist at UCSF, my neurotologist/surgeon) that it was OK

I got a permanent worsening of my T after pressing a loud phone to my bad ear. I began hearing a new T tone after a glass plate fell two inches onto another glass plate. Many others on this forum report temporary and permanent spikes following innocent-sounding incidents that a healthy person would not even notice.

I bet if you were to ask the doctors about loud phones and plates clanking they would tell you that those things are safe. When doctors say those things, they are talking about healthy people. Our ears have been compromised, and it takes a lot less to do some Serious (as in life-changing) damage. It appears that thus far there had not been any studies attempting to measure how much more vulnerable T sufferers are compared to healthy people. As a result, the doctors are assuming that there is no difference, even though the information on this forum seems to imply that there is a big difference.

Having said all of the above, I realize that not all T sufferers are as vulnerable to small shocks as I am. If you don't know what type you are, my recommendation is to assume that you are part of the vulnerable group and to act accordingly. Trust me, you don't want to find out the Hard Way that you are part of that vulnerable group...

 

[Michael Leigh]

I bet if you were to ask the doctors about loud phones and plates clanking they would tell you that those things are safe.

You are quite right @Bill Bauer most doctors particularly those that work in ENT know very little about tinnitus. They know about the anatomy of the ear and can treat it medically or surgically. I believe the majority of them do this well for this is what they are trained at, treating medical conditions associated with the ear. My ENT consultant someone that I have a lot of respect for and is an Audiovestibular physician. Told me that I know more about tinnitus than her. For the simple reason she has never experienced it.

Michael

PS: It is the Hearing Therapists and Audiologists who treat tinnitus patients that know about tinnitus. It is not unusual to find most of them have tinnitus. They were either born with it or acquired it at some time in their life. ENT doctors are not counsellors or tinnitus therapists.

 

[linearb]

There's nothing magic about headphones, it's just a matter of SPL at the eardrum. A volume which is damaging through headphones it's also damaging through speakers, and vice versa.

I don't love headphones, but I've used them in and off a lot over the last 20 years; no problems.

 

[Bill Bauer]

There's nothing magic about headphones, it's just a matter of SPL at the eardrum. A volume which is damaging through headphones it's also damaging through speakers, and vice versa.

In my experience, the closer the source of the noise is to my ear, the more devastating.

 

[linearb]

In my experience, the closer the source of the noise is to my ear, the more devastating.

A closer source is louder than the same source at a distance, that's literally the only variable here.

Also worth noting that cheap speakers and headphones have bad fidelity, and may be more tiring or cause people to increase the volume too much to compensate. I've got three sets of $100+ headphones and two sets of decent speakers; on either case, $10 cheapies is asking for trouble.

When I'm using airplanes or chopping wood, I tend to use headphones over earplugs... an ok compromise.

 

[Michael Leigh]

In my experience, the closer the source of the noise is to my ear, the more devastating.

Agree with you fully @Bill Bauer I am an Audiophile and there is significant difference between listening to music through speakers and having sound played directly into the ear through headphones or earbuds. With speakers the sound is dispersed and spread out over a wide area. This is not the case with headphones, the sound has only one way to travel and that's directly towards the eardrum and can cause only one thing. Damage. I used to listen to music through high-end headphones and haven't used headphones in 21 years and have no intention to ever try them again.

Michael

 

[Tinker Bell]

Sound from wearable WNGs is targeted directly towards the eardrum. If the sound's proximity is a concern, should we avoid wearable WNGs? Maybe instead stick to playing white noise on speakers — which would allow the sound to be dispersed throughout a room?

 

[linearb]

Sound from wearable WNGs is targeted directly towards the eardrum. If the sound's proximity is a concern, should we avoid wearable WNGs?

No, because sound's volume is the concern, not proximity :-/ This is basic physics

e: to be clear -- it almost certainly is easier to accidentally blast yourself with too-loud noise with headphones than it is with speakers; if you have a powerful sound generator that's <1" from your eardrum in an enclosed space, that sounds more dangerous than a (more powerful) sound generator 2' from your eardrum. But, if the SPL at the drum is 70db, in either case you're fine. Likewise, if the SPL at the drum is 125db then you're damaging yourself and it doesn't matter if it's a speaker or a headphone.

It is surprisingly hard to get a really accurate measurement of the SPL that your ear is being exposed to from a headphone or earbud; it's much easier to figure this out for an external speaker.

My work headphones and studio monitors for audio production are both open-backed headphones (Grado SR80es and Sennheiser HD555s). Open design gives you much worse sound isolation (the guy in the cubicle next to you will hear it), but also means that sound has more places to go, giving some marginal protection against accidental peaks that are louder than you intend.

I rarely use them for more than about an hour at a time, but that's because I don't need to (work from home in a quiet space). When I was in an office, I used them much more regularly, just kept the volume very low.

 

[Tinker Bell]

No, because sound's volume is the concern, not proximity :-/ This is basic physics

That was my thought as well. It seems odd to claim headphones are bad due to proximity when hearing aids and white noise generators have the same proximity.

Bad due to high volume? Absolutely. Even WNGs blasting could cause hearing damage. Of course, I think the highest volume setting on a WNG is nowhere near as loud as the highest volume on headphones. But you can set a max volume on many smartphones and my kids have headphones with a preset maximum volume that is low. They can hear me talk over their headphones. Tried to use them on a plane and they could barely hear the movie.

 

[Michael Leigh]

No, because sound's volume is the concern, not proximity :-/ This is basic physics

It maybe basic physics linerb but when someone has "noise induced" tinnitus and uses headphones even at low volume all that science goes out the window. The amount of people that have contacted me over the years that have followed the wrong advice given to them by ENT doctors and other health professionals, saying it's okay to use headphones at low volume. Now they are suffering. It is true, not everyone with "noise induced" tinnitus is adversely affected by headphones use but there's always a risk. Those that have tinnitus which wasn't caused by "loud noise" they are not likely to be affected by headphone use. I have covered this at lenght in my article: Tinnitus, A Personal View, and don't wish to go over it again. People have asked me questioned me: Aren't white noise generators the same as headphones? I've answered this many times and again and they are mentioned in my article under headphones and tinnitus.

One person I used to counsel was crying to me on the telephone in pain after following the wrong advice from her Audiologist. Listen to music through headphones at low volume to help cure her hyperacusis. People like that shouldn't be practicing medicine with tinnitus patients as they haven't a clue.

Michael

 

[GregCA]

I bet if you were to ask the doctors about loud phones and plates clanking they would tell you that those things are safe.

You would lose your bet. They were very specific about avoiding loud sounds.

When doctors say those things, they are talking about healthy people.

It was in the context of my hearing loss and tinnitus, so no, it was not about healthy people.

Our ears have been compromised, and it takes a lot less to do some Serious (as in life-changing) damage.

I think that's why the doctors insist on making sure that you are careful about volume. They did insist on this with me.

It appears that thus far there had not been any studies attempting to measure how much more vulnerable T sufferers are compared to healthy people. As a result, the doctors are assuming that there is no difference, even though the information on this forum seems to imply that there is a big difference.

I don't think the doctors are assuming that there is no difference. That hasn't been my experience with any of the doctors.

 

[Bill Bauer]

They were very specific about avoiding loud sounds.

Surely they would say that a phone or plates clanking are sounds that are not loud enough to cause permanent damage (or damage that can take longer than 3 months to heal).

It was in the context of my hearing loss and tinnitus, so no, it was not about healthy people.

I am sorry if I wasn't clear enough. The doctor is given information about the kind of sounds that can lead to hearing loss: sounds above 85 dB (if I remember correctly). This figure (85dB) is true for healthy people. Given my experiences, and the experiences of many others here, the figure for T sufferers is a lot lower. Since no studies have ever been done to establish what this figure is for T sufferers, the doctors are just using the figure of 85dB.

 

[Enrique]

I didn't think listening to headphones would affect my ears since I never exceeded 25% of max volume (usually stayed between 10%-15%). I would use them at the gym to help mask my T and they offered some protection against loud noises at the gym. After about 3 months my T was so bothersome and I couldn't pinpoint the cause since I also work with kids and it can get loud at times. I stopped using the headphones and now use earplugs at the gym and the T did subside. I wouldn't recommend using headphones for more than 20 mins a day and no more than 3 times a week. I used to be at the gym for 2 hours 4-5 times a week so it took a toll on my ears.

 

[glynis]

My view is still with my audiologist friend who know personally and David Baguly it's fine using earplugs at low volume for any case of tinnitus using white noise in moderation.
Love glynis

 

[Michael Leigh]

I didn't think listening to headphones would affect my ears since I never exceeded 25% of max volume (usually stayed between 10%-15%). I would use them at the gym to help mask my T and they offered some protection against loud noises at the gym. After about 3 months my T was so bothersome and I couldn't pinpoint the cause since I also work with kids and it can get loud at times. I stopped using the headphones and now use earplugs at the gym and the T did subside. I wouldn't recommend using headphones for more than 20 mins a day and no more than 3 times a week. I used to be at the gym for 2 hours 4-5 times a week so it took a toll on my ears.

Anyone that has "noise induced" tinnitus is taking a risk using headphones even at low volume. ENT doctors that advise tinnitus patients whose tinnitus was caused by "loud noise" that it's okay to use headphones at low volume are wrong in my opinion. Just because they are medical doctors with a degree does not mean they know about tinnitus. Many of them don't. I say again, I respect them for their medical knowledge of knowing about the anatomy of the ear but this does not extend to me believing they know about tinnitus. Many people give them a reverence that they are not deserving of when it comes to knowing about "Tinnitus" simply because they are doctors. Doctors without any experience of tinnitus.

Michael

 

[GregCA]

Surely they would say that a phone or plates clanking are sounds that are not loud enough to cause permanent damage (or damage that can take longer than 3 months to heal).

Well I certainly can't argue against such powerful clairvoyance, but your description of doctor's behavior doesn't match my experience.

I am sorry if I wasn't clear enough. The doctor is given information about the kind of sounds that can lead to hearing loss: sounds above 85 dB (if I remember correctly). This figure (85dB) is true for healthy people. Given my experiences, and the experiences of many others here, the figure for T sufferers is a lot lower. Since no studies have ever been done to establish what this figure is for T sufferers, the doctors are just using the figure of 85dB.

I get what you are saying, but I don't think that's how they operate.
No doctor has ever told me that 85 dB was the threshold for hearing loss. Perhaps you are going by this, but note what it says:

Prolonged exposure to sounds louder than 85 dB can cause damage to your hearing; sound at 120 dB is uncomfortable and 140 dB is the threshold of pain.​

There is a relationship between loudness and time. In other words, you can damage your hearing with very loud sounds for a short period of time, or low volume sounds for much longer periods of time. And the truth is that we're all different, so these are just guidelines: we can't publish an exact "damaging_loudness = f(time)" curve any more than we can publish a "how many slices of cake can I eat before I get sick" formula.

I've found that my doctors erred on the side of caution when they described the guidelines to me, ie a patient whose hearing apparatus had been insulted through a degenerative disease. They did make other critical mistakes in my diagnosis (and I'll happily fault them for that), but I never felt like they minimized the need to be cautious around loud sound.

 

[dpdx]

Do not use any headphones/earbuds at ANY VOLUME. You are risking a spike or more damage.

 

[glynis]

@dpdx,
What are your views on white noise with earphones on the lowest setting ?
As always if I get info to back my views up I will do.
As im no longer with the BTA forum I can not post my reply from Professor David Baguly.
Love glynis

 

[Michael Leigh]

Do not use any headphones/earbuds at ANY VOLUME. You are risking a spike or more damage.

@glynis your question is not directed at me so please excuse my intervention. With respect to @dpdx he is very new to tinnitus. I am a veteran with "noise induced" tinnitus. I don't advise anyone with my type of tinnitus to listen to white, pink, brown or any type of noise-audio through headphones no matter how low the volume is set. The sound is unregulated and will not be smooth and gentle as when listening through proper white noise generators, that are specifically meant for supplying sound into the ear. Using white noise through headphones, could be harmful for anyone with "noise induced" tinnitus.

Michael