Just Spoke with Workers Cutting Stones with No Hearing Protection

[Ben Winders]

Holy cow. I just went to the post office and at the church there were 2 workers cutting up stones with one of those very loud electric stone cutters. They weren't cutting anything when we were walking up to them but my girlfriend immediately said "do you want to walk around the block to avoid them?"

I estimated they weren't going to cut soon so I said no, we're fine and we walked on. When we arrived at the post office I heard them cutting. Even 2 blocks away it was LOUD. We waited a while for them to stop and we walked back the way we came. I quickly checked their surroundings and there was no sight of professional hearing protection.

So (it's what I do, I talk to strangers a lot) I went up to them and asked them if they "for the love of god" at least use some sort of hearing protection when they are cutting.

The guy that was the cutter said: "nah, what's the point, I already have tinnitus." The other guy jumped in and said: "yeah, me too, we have both worked in a steel factory for our entire lives."

I obviously told them: "but it can potentially get worse if you don't protect, I'm not here to tell you what to do obviously, I'm just concerned for your wellbeing."

The cutter said: "yeah, appreciated, but to be honest, I kind of need tinnitus, I don't like it when it's too quiet in my head."

1) Obviously this is insane stupidity, and I bet it's against regulation, I'm pretty sure they are obliged to used ear protection.

2) Despite this obviously being insanely stupid, it kind of shows the point I made in another thread. Someone asked does anyone know how to really live with tinnitus. I responded: "yes, the millions and millions of people that do not have an account here and just live their lives."

I really think (and my girlfriend made this assessment too) that I am "too smart" to be able to live with it properly. I hope everyone understands what I mean with that. I don't feel better than the workers, on the contrary, I wish I would be more like them. Giving less focus, researching less, being less on Tinnitus Talk.

I bet these guys' high pitched tinnitus is louder than mine (my main demon is the low-pitched tinnitus that I have, not sure if they have that) and yet they just act as if nothing is going on.

I even feel a bit guilty for bringing it too their attention. If it would have been a person like me, I may have brought the tinnitus to their attention and consequently made it worse.

 

[Pauli]

This is very interesting.

I have noticed that things I find bothering (e.g., clock ticking when I'm trying to sleep or music when I'm trying to study) oftentimes don't interrupt other people at all. This is sort of an extreme example though.

When my tinnitus started, I talked to my dad about it and about a week later he said he noticed it too now and he had never noticed it before but must have had it for some time. For me it is unimaginable that I would not notice something like that.

I think it's got more to do with personality than intelligence to be honest. For example, I read a study which found that people with higher neuroticism trait, which is not always a bad thing, are prone to have higher sensitivity to intrusive experiences hence tinnitus can be perceived as more bothersome.

But also when you're doing manual work, I don't think tinnitus can affect your life to the same extent as when you're working in a quiet environment, like an office, where you have to focus. That I think definitely plays a role too.

 

[Stuart-T]

Interesting. The circular stone cutters certainly are very loud. I plug my ears when I even see one of those things. You did a good turn approaching them like that. I don't understand why they are not taking precautions and their reasoning is bizarre. Maybe they live in very noisy households. Yes we do seem to be the connoisseurs of tinnitus on this forum - maybe we are the softies while others out there just get on with things.

I have noticed that things I find bothering (e.g., clock ticking when I'm trying to sleep or music when I'm trying to study) oftentimes don't interrupt other people at all. This is sort of an extreme example though.

Ticking clocks drive me mad too. I had issues with this is my marriage - as a ticker bothered me but not my wife - she found it soothing. Maybe a childhood association thing. If I had a ticking tinnitus - I would be in the crazy house by now. A continual unchanging hiss or at worst, whine - I can just about cope with.

 

[BrOKeN_1]

I even feel a bit guilty for bringing it too their attention. If it would have been a person like me, I may have brought the tinnitus to their attention and consequently made it worse.

I'm really jealous of those that can just shrug it off. Of course this may just be a Macho public act. Who knows.

 

[Bob Kinetic]

I have given earmuffs, good ones, and packs of 33 dB NRR foam earplugs to many chainsaw operators and yard maintenance crews over the years ever since I learned about hearing protection. Many migrant workers are happy to have jobs and don't think about their hearing. I stop and give them the protection and explain in broken Spanish. They are always grateful.

Last week I took several earmuffs and earplugs to a tree cutting crew next door. I explained about hearing loss being cumulative and how my tinnitus tortures me. One young guy said he had already lost his hearing so he didn't need them. I yelled back: "You heard me, didn't you? Protect what you have left!" He still refused. The other four took the earplugs and earmuffs but I don't think they wore them. No explaining stupid!

 

[KoolKat]

I'm telling you this is why we have no cure today. Nbody takes us seriously. They think tinnitus is a joke.

It's sad and depressing. And what's worse are the ENTs and the so-called doctors who behave the same way. Are we that rare.

 

[ECP]

Interesting! I have wondered how some people can be so blase about loud noises like that. Ben, you were very kind to speak to those people about their lack of safety precautions, even if your words fell on "deaf ears," so to speak. And Bob, it was so good of you to donate hearing protection to people who weren't wearing any. I bet all those people who are blase suffer only from tinnitus, not noxacusis, or they'd be more careful!

When I was in school, I was always the kind of person who required near-total silence in an indoor environment in order to study for tests. I practically lived in the library. I didn't like to study with friends (which usually resulted in more socializing than actual studying), and I didn't like to study while listening to music or watching TV. Some ambient sounds were okay, and even muffled or faraway conversation was okay, like the kind you might hear in a coffee shop, but nothing more. I needed a bubble of quiet around me in order to concentrate.

That is one of the many reasons why tinnitus & hyperacusis bother me so much. It's like the bubble has been popped and the whole world is raging around my inflamed ears.

The sensitivity to tinnitus could very well be a personality thing or a neuroticism thing. Some people go through life with an attitude of "whatever" and they're just not predisposed to worry like I am. I envy their imperturbable nature, but at the same time I don't want to live their lives. People who never worry about their own health and safety tend to be reckless and irresponsible, in my not-so-humble opinion.

 

[CRGC]

If hyperacusis with pain was a more common comorbidity to tinnitus, the world would be a different place.

 

[Damocles]

Someone asked does anyone know how to really live with tinnitus. I responded: "yes, the millions and millions of people that do not have an account here and just live their lives."

The sensitivity to tinnitus could very well be a personality thing or a neuroticism thing.

Tinnitus Absolutely Does Get Better — Most People Just Don't Come Back to Tell About It!

TIL counterfactual conditionals prove beyond doubt:

• That experimental genetic therapies are extremelyeffective.
• That had Begum been 18+ she wouldn't have confused ISIS for being a fun and inclusive book club.
• That tinnitus is not an objectively debilitating condition that will bring its host to their knees beyond a certain severity (subject to individual pain thresholds).

I really think (and my girlfriend made this assessment too) that I am "too smart" to be able to live with it properly.

No, Ben. You and me will see those stonecutters in tinnitus hell with the rest of us damned. Just, perhaps we won't see them. Because ignorantia juris non excusat and ignorantia veritas non praesidium. But not being "too smart", well, that helps with not using technology (or support forums, for that matter).

 

[dan]

Problem is we can't hear their tinnitus. There is no way you can be Ok with loud reactive tinnitus that gets cripplingly worse from a car honk. I'm willing to bet if they had some of the tinnitus some of us have on the Suicidal thread, that they'd be singing to a different tune.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

Most likely mild/moderate/stable non-reactive and no hyperacusis.

 

[Jupiterman]

I'm telling you this is why we have no cure today. Nbody takes us seriously. They think tinnitus is a joke.

It's sad and depressing. And what's worse are the ENTs and the so-called doctors who behave the same way. Are we that rare.

If the majority of sufferers don't even take their own tinnitus condition seriously, you begin to understand why there has been no push for a cure over the decades.

Habituation seems to be a satisfactory 'cure' for the majority. And many don't even get to that point because their tinnitus fades.

@Ben Winders, you did a great thing in speaking to these men. This has got to be the hardest hitting post I have ever read on this forum.

If any of these 'promising' treatments/cures come to fruition in the coming (months?)/years, it will be interesting to see how much of a demand there is for them. Will it just be the fifty or so current regulars on this forum who show up at the clinic or will there be millions?

 

[Ben Winders]

Most likely mild/moderate/stable non-reactive and no hyperacusis.

There is no way of knowing.

I remember a story on here about a little girl that estimated to have VERY LOUD (unclear how that was estimated) tinnitus but the mom (righteously) forbade anyone from telling her as the girl didn't know any better and thought it was "normal".

That said - of course it's a bit of a different story, most of us have known silence so we know what it SHOULD sound like in our heads, but still - it shows how you can live with it, if you can train your brain to detach the anxiety from the equation (by the way, after 3 years, I still don't really know how to do that either).

 

[KoolKat]

If the majority of sufferers don't even take their own tinnitus condition seriously, you begin to understand why there has been no push for a cure over the decades.

You hit it right on the nail. I've had crazy arguments with people who think tinnitus isn't a big deal. But regardless there's no excuse in why professionals behave this way too. The thing people don't realize is habituation doesn't always cut it. I do think the next gen might be different.

I remember a story on here about a little girl that estimated to have VERY LOUD (unclear how that was estimated) tinnitus but the mom (righteously) forbade anyone from telling her as the girl didn't know any better and thought it was "normal".

That said - of course it's a bit of a different story, most of us have known silence so we know what it SHOULD sound like in our heads, but still - it shows how you can live with it, if you can train your brain to detach the anxiety from the equation (by the way, after 3 years, I still don't really know how to do that either).

All we need is education and proper propaganda/exposure on this condition and that will change. This gen of kids are much more compassionate than the previous boomers. All we need is proper exposure and we will change the mindset.

 

[Alue]

It's not just individuals, I think companies as a whole do not take hearing protection seriously. I have worked with a lot of different companies in various industries and it's eye opening to see how large manufacturers overlook noise exposure compared to just about any other occupational hazard.

I have gone through many safety programs, most of them almost go overboard with other PPE, procedures, engineering controls, and awareness then gloss over or completely ignore hearing protection. Things like safety glasses required at all times even if you are looking at a computer screen, not allowed to lift more than 25 lbs, bump caps, etc., but with working around loud equipment it's always like "meh, as long as we post a sign up saying hearing protection required in an area that is >85 dB and not really enforce it, we're golden". Most safety training programs don't even mention hearing protection at all.

Furthermore, OSHA standards for hearing protection are hilariously out of date. 8-hour time-weighted average of 85 dB, and anything below that is considered inconsequential? The only reason manufactures adhere to it and don't take any further precautions or noise mitigation is $$$.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

it shows how you can live with it, if you can train your brain to detach the anxiety from the equation

I've gone through a severe anxiety phase (when I was moderate and stable) and after that a severe suffering phase (when it was spiking daily and permanently noise as little as chewing). Not everything is anxiety, when it gets to the point of horrendous catastrophic permanent spikes in tones and loudnes daily... You can't adjust to it.

These guys obviously do not spike permanently and daily due to them using seriously loud equipment with no protection and being fine with it

 

[Ben Winders]

These guys obviously do not spike permanently and daily due to them using seriously loud equipment with no protection and being fine with it

We don't know.

All we know is that they seemingly have 0 anxiety with moderate (assuming theirs is moderate) and stable tinnitus.

Unlike you (and me, and most of us here).

I've gone through a severe anxiety phase (when I was moderate and stable

My girlfriend's high pitched tinnitus is louder than mine. She has 0 feelings towards it, while it devastates my life.

 

[GoatSheep]

Holy cow. I just went to the post office and at the church there were 2 workers cutting up stones with one of those very loud electric stone cutters. They weren't cutting anything when we were walking up to them but my girlfriend immediately said "do you want to walk around the block to avoid them?"

I estimated they weren't going to cut soon so I said no, we're fine and we walked on. When we arrived at the post office I heard them cutting. Even 2 blocks away it was LOUD. We waited a while for them to stop and we walked back the way we came. I quickly checked their surroundings and there was no sight of professional hearing protection.

So (it's what I do, I talk to strangers a lot) I went up to them and asked them if they "for the love of god" at least use some sort of hearing protection when they are cutting.

The guy that was the cutter said: "nah, what's the point, I already have tinnitus." The other guy jumped in and said: "yeah, me too, we have both worked in a steel factory for our entire lives."

I obviously told them: "but it can potentially get worse if you don't protect, I'm not here to tell you what to do obviously, I'm just concerned for your wellbeing."

The cutter said: "yeah, appreciated, but to be honest, I kind of need tinnitus, I don't like it when it's too quiet in my head."

1) Obviously this is insane stupidity, and I bet it's against regulation, I'm pretty sure they are obliged to used ear protection.

2) Despite this obviously being insanely stupid, it kind of shows the point I made in another thread. Someone asked does anyone know how to really live with tinnitus. I responded: "yes, the millions and millions of people that do not have an account here and just live their lives."

I really think (and my girlfriend made this assessment too) that I am "too smart" to be able to live with it properly. I hope everyone understands what I mean with that. I don't feel better than the workers, on the contrary, I wish I would be more like them. Giving less focus, researching less, being less on Tinnitus Talk.

I bet these guys' high pitched tinnitus is louder than mine (my main demon is the low-pitched tinnitus that I have, not sure if they have that) and yet they just act as if nothing is going on.

I even feel a bit guilty for bringing it too their attention. If it would have been a person like me, I may have brought the tinnitus to their attention and consequently made it worse.

Yes, it appears they can cope with a certain type of tinnitus. I wonder if they can cope the same with hyperacusis, noxacusis, diplacusis, dysacusis, etc.? Did you mention any of these things to them? People barely know about any ear issues outside of hearing loss and tinnitus. Hell, I was pretty clueless before they destroyed my life.

I get the feeling they don't have low frequency tinnitus that causes physical sensations of bodily vibration, high frequency tinnitus that gives them sensations of painful electrical zaps, or static tinnitus that gives sensations like a rattle snake snake rattler is whipping around on top of their head.

One day they may suffer for their lack of concern. The one mentioned he doesn't like it "too quiet" in his head. That doesn't seem to suggest his current tinnitus is particularly loud.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

while it devastates my life.

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you get some stability soon, brother.

 

[UKBloke]

The cutter said: "yeah, appreciated, but to be honest, I kind of need tinnitus, I don't like it when it's too quiet in my head."

This is a classic example of having tinnitus as opposed to suffering tinnitus.

From my own experience I'd suggest the reason is as follows:

The initial 0 -> 3 on a perceived scale of loudness initially seems catastrophic. This is because coming from the absolute calm of a healthy auditory system to one that plays it's own tune can be quite a shock.

For the average person, however, there will be little to worry about because automatic central nervous system 'habituation' kicks in within two to three years and the tinnitus sound just becomes a part of us.

Happily, this new normal can go on for many years, but then one day out the blue (and because nobody ever warned us it could happen if we didn't respect our hearing) the 3 ramps up to a 7.

We now have something to compare it to.

One realises that the comforting little noise that one 'needed' was actually a super low volume in comparison to this new beast that suddenly turns very nasty and deeply intrusive.

The mental effects of this can be grinding. It's as this point in time that one may become a sufferer of tinnitus.

Unfortunately it doesn't matter how much we warn people, everyone has to make their own mistakes. Hopefully Mr. Stonecutter won't fall foul of this situation and stress his hearing too much. If the opposite happens, however, and he doesn't heed the gentle warning, there may come a day when talking about tinnitus he's not so glib.

 

[Brian Newman]

Holy cow. I just went to the post office and at the church there were 2 workers cutting up stones with one of those very loud electric stone cutters. They weren't cutting anything when we were walking up to them but my girlfriend immediately said "do you want to walk around the block to avoid them?"

I estimated they weren't going to cut soon so I said no, we're fine and we walked on. When we arrived at the post office I heard them cutting. Even 2 blocks away it was LOUD. We waited a while for them to stop and we walked back the way we came. I quickly checked their surroundings and there was no sight of professional hearing protection.

So (it's what I do, I talk to strangers a lot) I went up to them and asked them if they "for the love of god" at least use some sort of hearing protection when they are cutting.

The guy that was the cutter said: "nah, what's the point, I already have tinnitus." The other guy jumped in and said: "yeah, me too, we have both worked in a steel factory for our entire lives."

I obviously told them: "but it can potentially get worse if you don't protect, I'm not here to tell you what to do obviously, I'm just concerned for your wellbeing."

The cutter said: "yeah, appreciated, but to be honest, I kind of need tinnitus, I don't like it when it's too quiet in my head."

1) Obviously this is insane stupidity, and I bet it's against regulation, I'm pretty sure they are obliged to used ear protection.

2) Despite this obviously being insanely stupid, it kind of shows the point I made in another thread. Someone asked does anyone know how to really live with tinnitus. I responded: "yes, the millions and millions of people that do not have an account here and just live their lives."

I really think (and my girlfriend made this assessment too) that I am "too smart" to be able to live with it properly. I hope everyone understands what I mean with that. I don't feel better than the workers, on the contrary, I wish I would be more like them. Giving less focus, researching less, being less on Tinnitus Talk.

I bet these guys' high pitched tinnitus is louder than mine (my main demon is the low-pitched tinnitus that I have, not sure if they have that) and yet they just act as if nothing is going on.

I even feel a bit guilty for bringing it too their attention. If it would have been a person like me, I may have brought the tinnitus to their attention and consequently made it worse.

I feel you there. Lol pretty crazy those guys will never get worse and will have their stable mild tinnitus forever. We all know if they get nasty loud tinnitus or pain hyperacusis, they won't be saying that. I would love to see these guys deal with severe pain hyperacusis. They will never get it though. Sadly most people think we're all a bunch of Karens protecting our hearing. We all know if they talk mildly about it like that, they don't have got it bad. Applies for both tinnitus and hyperacusis.

For a long time I believed there were people who just weren't as bothered by it. Some people can tolerate more than others - that's a fact. I've talked to people crying over tinnitus masked by a low fan, and people relaxed from pretty loud tinnitus. Everybody has a limit with how much they can take and if it gets bad enough it will destroy anybody. I do think anybody who downplays tinnitus or hyperacusis doesn't have it bad. They claim to, but they just don't. I've met some pretty severe tinnitus cases in real life and their tinnitus was insanely loud. Not one said they were thankful they have got it, or that it made them a stronger person, or any garbage like that. They all said man it sucks. Every single one.

Sorry I'm hijacking your thread, but I think it's time this community does something about mild cases preaching, trying to downplay severe cases. I've seen it going on for 7 years now. When I go back to the incredible success stories and I read deeper, I realize their hyperacusis isn't that bad, they claimed to be severe to catastrophic, but could go to the store with earplugs in. Or they don't have lingering pain. Or their tinnitus that was miraculously cured was a short term case, or it wasn't that loud to begin with. Now there definitely are a few long term severe cases that improved. It's not impossible.

But we all agree, these conditions are taken as a joke because of people like the guys you were talking to. Super mild tinnitus, no hyperacusis, no noxacusis, and doctors think after seeing them, meh, ear stuff ain't that bad, let's focus on other stuff. Or "severe" hyperacusis cases that were cured with sound therapy. All those mild people preaching have been screwing this community for decades. And we all need to shift focus away from CBT, sound therapy, and other therapies that work for the mild cases, and get more focus on hearing loss regeneration. That is the goldmine with all of this hearing stuff, I am absolutely positive about that. If inner hair cells, outer hair cells and synapses were all regenerated, so many people would get better. Just going to the doctor and getting a few shots... I can't even imagine.

I've seen your posts. You're pretty knowledgeable about this stuff too. I wish one day we can act the same as those people and be like eh, who needs hearing when it can be regenerated. Who knows when that will be, I estimated 2025-2027 but it will probably be much longer lol.

 

[Nick47]

All those mild people preaching have been screwing this community for decades. And we all need to shift focus away from CBT, sound therapy, and other therapies that work for the mild cases, and get more focus on hearing loss regeneration.

These are the idiots that hold us back.

 

[Jupiterman]

These [mild cases] are the idiots that hold us back.

There is really no point in trying to explain what severe tinnitus/hyperacusis is like to a person with a mild case of tinnitus/hyperacusis.

There is also no point in a mild case trying to explain to a tinnitus free person what it's like to have tinnitus.

Wherever you are on the tinnitus scale, the person below you on that scale won't understand.

 

[Lane]

Wherever you are on the tinnitus scale, the person below you on that scale won't understand.

@Jupiterman -- Have to (sort of) disagree on that one. I've read all too many heart wrenching stories on this forum that are clearly significantly worse than what I'm dealing with, and yet I feel I "get it" when I read these stories. I suspect a good number of members here can look at their own difficulties, and extrapolate out fairly well just how difficult it is for somebody who has it much worse. It's not that we can fully experience what they're going through, but I think our own difficulties can help us greatly empathize with their plight. I think the large number of "hugs" that are given out on this forum would testify to that. That said, your point is well taken.

 

[Tweaker]

I tend to over-analyse and overthink everything. If I find a problem I never let go until I've found a solution. I'm like that at work, doing DIY or anything I do. I obsess about a problem until I fix it. Unfortunately with tinnitus, there is no fix. But I can't stop trying to find a solution which stops me letting go of it. Can others relate to this?

 

[Lane]

But I can't stop trying to find a solution which stops me letting go of it.

For some, just the ability to be able to relax again, or remain calm, or lose the fear of tinnitus is a victory in itself. Maybe not the "solution" of completely ridding ourselves of it, but learning to live with it without it "unduly" affecting our lives. I've been able to do all of the above, but it's a continual work in progress. I at least know that if I have a difficult day (or cycle) coping with it all, it will almost assuredly turn back around.

I have a lot of good quality of life despite this "handicap". Just to mention, over a period of 4 years or so, I've been able to have my tinnitus go from a screeching 10+++ to around 5-8 on a regular basis. 8 is better than 10+++, and 5 is WAY better than 10+++. I realize not everybody has improvement, and I feel grateful every day for the periods of relative reprieve I experience on an ongoing basis. (If 5 on the tinnitus scale can be called a reprieve).

 

[Brian Newman]

These are the idiots that hold us back.

Yes sir, they do.

 

[AfroSnowman]

There is really no point in trying to explain what severe tinnitus/hyperacusis is like to a person with a mild case of tinnitus/hyperacusis.

There is also no point in a mild case trying to explain to a tinnitus free person what it's like to have tinnitus.

Wherever you are on the tinnitus scale, the person below you on that scale won't understand.

I do think at a certain point experiencing constant pain doesn't care about hierarchy.

I mean if you experience a painful piecing 24/7 sound that can never be masked, whether the MML is 50, 60 or 70, the fundamental challenge and pain of existence is the same.

 

[rogerlee]

One young guy said he had already lost his hearing so he didn't need them. I yelled back: "You heard me, didn't you? Protect what you have left!" He still refused. The other four took the earplugs and earmuffs but I don't think they wore them. No explaining stupid!

Did you ask how severe the young guy's hearing loss is and if he has tinnitus?

 

[Bob Kinetic]

Did you ask how severe the young guy's hearing loss is and if he has tinnitus?

His body language was at least resentful when I explained how machinery like chainsaws hurt my hearing and caused tinnitus. I wasn't in a position to delve into a conversation as I was explaining to his boss how OSHA requires him to provide protection for his workers. The boss man said he had several pairs in the truck but they wouldn't wear them. I don't believe him. They were all resistant to my efforts.