Kevin Hogan Recovered After 2.5 Years

[Karl]

joe -
That thread written by mock turtle about Clonezapam is great. He and I are about the same age. Thanks for bringing that thread to my attention.

click -
You had a strong reaction to a benzo. There are actually two types of medicines we are talking about here: benzo's and SSRI's, which are not to be confused. Psychiatry 101: When someone with depression sees a phychiatrist, typically they prescribe an anti-anxiety drug (benzo) which acts quickly plus an SSRI which takes about one week to a month to build-up seratonin levels and "kick in". Once the SSRI become effective, the patient stops taking the anti-anxiety medications. (About 10 years ago, I went through horrible depression, after burning myself out writting a software application night and day.)

Fish-
I've had "T" about 9 months. Since the medical community hasn't provided me with a definite cure, except for maskers, I'm looking for answers with the rest of you. During this time, I've tried a whole lot of stuff. This week I'm trying Clonezapam. Call it "Experiment No. 361".

I'm not planning to buy Kevin Hogan's book, just thinking about his ideas. The things that Kevin Hogan is talking about can only be obtained from doctors. Anyone who tries his program will need to work closely with a doctor, simply to get the meds.

 

[click]

Thanks Karl. I have to admit I know very little about any of these drugs (they all scare me because even multi vitamins give me a foggy head). Does that mean that Clonezapam is a benzo or a SSRI then?

 

[Karl]

click -
Glad that I can explain this subject.

Clonezapam is a "benzo" - meaning that its chemistry uses a benzene molecule. Xanax is also a benzo.

"SSRI" stands for "Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitor". These drugs tend to prevent the body from using up seratonin (thus the name "inhibitor"). The intestines can use up a lot of seratonin. SSRI's principally act on the intestines, preventing them from absorbing seratonin. (As a result, a person taking an SSRI may become constipated).

"Seratonin" is one of several neuro-transmitters in the brain. The theory is, many people with depression have a seratonin deficiency. So, by taking an SSRI, the body will begin to accumulate seratonin, which reaches the brain, making the person feel good again. Usually the brain thrives on this type of stuff; however, for some people they have a bad reaction.

There are other types of anti-depressants that work on the other neuro-transmitters.

In the context of this discussion, both benzos and SSRI's seem to have a positive effect on reducing tinnitus - or reducing the anxiety of tinnitus. This makes sense, because tinnitus, although it begins in the ear, is a condition of the brain effecting the central auditory pathway in the brain. In a nutshell: Medicines for depression/anxiety seem to also help tinnitus.

 

[joe]

Click,

Clonezapam, also known as Rivotril here in the UK, is a Benzo,

Back in the 60's a " Mothers Little Helper Tablet " was formed it was Valium, (diazepam), thousands of women popped them, there wasnt much hype for about 10 years, Roche the maker made billions, the biggest problem was addiction, bit like eating Pringles once you pop there so good you cant stop!!! lol,

In all honesty and more seriously to the point, if your considering taking any Benzo's or SSRI consult your G.P first..
and watch them prescribe you amitriptyline instead

 

[joe]

Karl, that was well explained,

You know I would like to take Clonzepam for 3 months, just so I could habituate my T, like, Mock Turtle, but the Ironic thing is this I can go to my GP and he will prescribe me 2 valium tabs if I tell him I am taking a flight, but soon as I ask him for Rivotril for anxiety he says it wont work as well as amitriptyline?? I think UK doctors get some kick back $ on prescribing amitriptyline

 

[erik]

Karl, well explained.

I would like to add that benzos and SSRI's are usually prescribed together. It can take several weeks for SSRI's to become effective in your system and your anxiety and depression may initially get worse before it gets better so the benzos are used during the first few weeks to help with the transition.

Amitriptyline is a tri-cyclic anti-depressant (Amitriptyline, Nortriptyline etc) which was part of the generation of anti-depressants before the current SSRI's. Though discovered 60 years ago, They were heavily used during the late 80's, 90's and early 2000's. They are not generally prescribed as a first line of antidepressant in the USA any longer because the side effects are notably worse than that of the current SSRI's (prozac, lexapro, zoloft etc) and withdrawal can be a problem. However, it is thought that the older generation tri-cyclic's work better for T sufferers and may work better for depression sufferers overall. Normally, if SSRI's do not work (studies show they may not work for up to 40% of people or even work at all), then tri-cyclics can be prescribed.

 

[Karl]

joe -
I think you need to see another doctor, or show him the ATA's study. (I will post an image in one minute). My GP wasn't familiar with clonezapam. I was initially prescribed clonezapam by a neurologist because I was having sleeping problems.

erik -
Very interesting about amitriptyline. My ENT says that's one of the best. I had trouble taking Paxil. It was both good and bad. Was very hard to get off of. John Lennon's "Cold Turkey" comes to mind.

 

[Karl]

joe -
Show this ATA study to your doctor:

 

[DezDog]

Karl,

I don't think that's quite right about seratonin. It's too large to cross the blood brain barrier, and so is manufactured entirely in the brain (that part that has the neurological effect anyway). So, even if we can accumulate it in our bodies, it will never reach our brains; it's too big.

One of the precursors to seratonin is tryptophan, which can cross into the brain. This is an amino acid that we get from protein.

My understanding is that when our neurons fire, they emit seratonin to effect the signal, and then suck it back up again (re-uptake). An SSRI reduces the amount of sucking back up (re-uptake inhibition), leaving us with an excess.

I read a wonderful book about how foods can affect our brain chemistry, and from that I started wondering if I was actually short of Vitamin-B (also required in the manufacture of seratonin). Since then I've taken supplements along with the fluoxetine.

DD

 

[joe]

Thanks Karl, I'll approach him with the article.
there's something I been working on for a while that ticks all the boxes and if my theory is correct it could also lower tinnitus I want to share with you all, and I really think you should include it when you send your letter to the ATA for some testing http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18072812

 

[Karl]

Karl,

I don't think that's quite right about seratonin. It's too large to cross the blood brain barrier, and so is manufactured entirely in the brain (that part that has the neurological effect anyway). So, even if we can accumulate it in our bodies, it will never reach our brains; it's too big.

One of the precursors to seratonin is tryptophan, which can cross into the brain. This is an amino acid that we get from protein....

DD -
You may be correct. But the majority of the human body's serotonin is in the intestines. Here's something from Wikipedia:

"Approximately 90% of the human body's total serotonin is located in the enterochromaffin cells in the alimentary canal (gut) , where it is used to regulate intestinal movements.[6][7] The remainder is synthesized in serotonergic neurons of the CNS, where it has various functions. These include the regulation of mood, appetite, and sleep. Serotonin also has some cognitive functions, including memory and learning. Modulation of serotonin at synapses is thought to be a major action of several classes of pharmacological antidepressants."

I seem to recall that there is a 5-HT cycle (?) where tryptophan is involved. There is an over-the-counter drug called 5HTP that will increase serotonin.

 

[erik]

Lately, there has been debate on whether serotonin is a factor in depression at all. It is certainly not the whole story and that may explain why SSRI's and just increasing serotonin is not effective for everyone. Plus, it can take weeks to see results. As far as for T, I know people with T on anti-depressants and it has not really done anything to alleviate the noise or reduce it.

There are new anti-depressants in the pipeline that are radically different than the current lot which produce near instant results and are more effective than current SSRI's. They do not increase serotonin. They block glutamate. One of these such drugs is Ketamine. This drug may be more affective for depression and T.

I personally don't think SSRI's are not that effect for T in the sense that it can physically lower the noise. It may help you react less to it but not permanently lower or rid the T. I know a few people with T on SSRI's and they still have T.
I think benzo's maybe more successful for T because they affect GABA which has a direct link to T not serotonin. Studies show increasing GABA can decrease T. In addition to this lowering the glutamate levels in your brain can lower the overactive nurons which would improve T. Dr's are cautious about prescribing benzo's long term because of the side effects and complicated withdrawal. However, though some anticonvulsants, although may have bad side effects, might be more tolerable long term and studies have shown them to be effective for T, though many more studies need to be done.

 

[Fish]

There are new anti-depressants in the pipeline that are radically different than the current lot which produce near instant results and are more effective than current SSRI's. They do not increase serotonin. They block glutamate. One of these such drugs is Ketamine. This drug may be more affective for depression and T.

Wasn't it an excessive production of glutamate that's been shown to cause tinnitus? Also AM-101, a drug tested for T is based on ketamine.

Do you have some more info about those new anti-depressants erik? This is a nice find!

 

[erik]

Yes, Fish, one cause of tinnitus is the release of excessive amounts of the neurotransmitter glutamate by hair cells in the inner ear. Normally, glutamate plays a vital role in communication between nerve cells, making them
more likely to send a signal onwards. However, when the cells are subjected to stress - for example by exposure to loud noise or to drugs that are toxic to hair cells - they over-produce glutamate, causing a negative effect known as excitotoxicity. The result is that the original connections between hair cells and the nerves that carry signals from the inner ear on to the brain are destroyed, but can later be replaced by the growth of new ones. These new connections are of a different type to the originals and function differently, becoming over-active when glutamate is released.
The over-activity is then perceived as tinnitus.

That is one reason I try to limit my consumption of foods with MSG (monosodium glutamate) and it's glutamic acid relatives. Unfortunately, this is difficult to do as it is in almost all processed foods and all fast foods/restaurant foods.

Ketamine, has been around for decades, originally used for animals. Can have bad side effects if overused. Australian info on Ketamine.

 

[Karl]

erik -
Very interesting, excellent information. Now we're back to "GABA", which I know nothin' about! Man, I think we're really getting somewhere on this thread!

I'm not sure how this line of thought is quite fitting in with the "phantom limb syndrome" theory, in which the noise we perceive is due to damage of the affervent/effervent nerve circuit in the inner ear.

 

[erik]

Yes, Karl back to Gaba. Initially, months ago at the onset of my T, I tried 5HTP to increase my serotonin, control my glutamate and Picamilon (gaba bonded with niacin to cross the blood brain barrier) to increase Gaba in the brain.

At that time, I thought that increasing my serotonin levels with 5HTP would help eleviate the tinnitus and reduce the release of glutamate. I also worked to reduce my stress and anxiety levels because excess glutamate is released during times of high stress. I don't think either worked for me because T was still new to me, loud and I couldn't get my anxiety/depression/stress under control. Now that I have a better handle on these things, maybe I could revisit this again. I don't know. I have an appt with a Neurologist in about 10 days so I will discuss this with him and other ideas I have.

 

[Markku]

While there's debate whether Kevin Hogan's self-hypnosis program is scam/snake oil or not, this thread has so much useful talk about actual drugs and stuff that might help us in the near future, that I don't think Alt. Treatments is the right section for this anymore. Thus this is being moved to Treatments.

Personally I have tried 5-HTP and SAMe, not concurrently but consecutively. This was about a couple of months into tinnitus, and I was feeling quite low at that point (it was the point when I started realizing this isn't really going away), so I searched for alt. treatments on the net and tried these two.

I didn't notice any decrease in tinnitus, but who knows if they helped me achieve habituation sooner? I can't tell, because there's only one instance of me in this world. If there was two and the other one also got tinnitus but didn't opt for 5-HTP and SAMe, then I could chat with my other self and see how he turned out.

I do agree with erik though, I don't think (especially SSRIs) antidepressants cause the physical reduction of tinnitus. And I'm also wary on SSRIs on the general, Finnish docs (and well doctors all over the globe, I guess?) prescribe them way too easily and then show the patient out. There are about 5 million people in Finland and over 500,000 of them are on antidepressants, and that was in 2009 and the amount is only increasing every year. And besides, just like erik, I've also read about the studies that placebo is in many cases as good as SSRIs, so...

However, we all know how devastating tinnitus can be in the beginning, and there's evidence i.e. Xanax helps to reduce the impact of tinnitus. I don't believe Xanax will lower the physical intensity of tinnitus, but certainly benzodiazepines can make you care less about the noise and help you get a grip on life again (thus, things like Tinnitus Handicap Score improve). Xanax is quite addicting though, so it's important the withdrawal is handled promptly.

The ketamine seems interesting, and that AM-101 is based on it.

 

[Markku]

Hmm, though the clonazepam study is quite interesting Karl posted.

If it actually caused measurable decrease in tinnitus loudness.

Hmmh.

 

[joe]

Karl, can you give us all an update, on how your getting on with Clonzepam? Any improvements ? Sideffects ?

 

[erik]

Though I think all benzo's would have similar success of Clonzepam, the advantage that Clonzepam (Klonopin) has is that it is much longer lasting that the other benzo's. It has half-life of 18-50 hours and if taken at regular daily intervals would keep an even amount in your system. This is something that would be difficult to do with regular Xanax (maybe Xanax XR) or Ativan.

Having Clonzepam regular in your system would definitely even out your mood, lower stress and most likely the tinnitus too. This may be great for few weeks but not sure what would happened when you weened off it. Maybe it would be long enough to cope with the T and habituate some, maybe it would return to previous state.

 

[Louise]

Hi,

I've been reading two of the threads in this forum over the last two days and wish I had found this place sooner. There has been some great information posted here.

I'd like to relate my story....
I got tinnitus 11 weeks ago from a night out. I watched a rock band in a local pub and the volume was way, way too loud. Just a horrible noise with no melody to it because it was too loud. I also realised half-way through that I had been standing right at the side of a speaker on my left. The next morning the ringing was there in my left ear and it has not gone away. It is constant. I have been devastated and had a panic attack in the second week after I realised this was it, I have tinnitus. The fact it was from my own stupidity (not moving away because I'd had too much to drink) makes it even harder to bear. Then two weeks ago I went to the theatre to see The Phantom of The Opera, the tickets had been bought way back in January. I thought it would be ok as the orchestra isnt loud, not the loud that can cause hearing loss anyway, and I have been to this theatre loads in the past and never had even 'disco tinnitus' from it. But after that night the volume of my tinnitus has now doubled and I have it a little in the other ear also. The theatre seeems to have done more damage than the original night out. The pitch of the ringing has changed and there are now more tones in it and it moves around sort of like its trying to tune itself in, like a radio. I can now hear it in the office all day at work, which before going to the theatre I couldnt. I feel so desperate.

I have a question for Joe: Did you finish all the HBO sessions and did the improvement stay at 25%?

I am right on the edge of the time that they say HBO can help, that's for the original damage anyway. But maybe I am still in time to help the latest damage I have done to myself with the theatre trip 2 weeks ago.

I would be very difficult for me to do the HBO treatment due to claustrophobia and also the difficulty of getting time off work to go every day. I am self-employed and have only just started a new 3 month contract so its tricky to ask to leave early every day. I have to feel some certainty that the HBO treatment would work in my case to go through all the pain of doing it.

Thanks for reading everyone.

 

[Peg]

For me Clonazepam on a higher dose has a nasty side effect. Nasty mood changes. Im taking zoloft. Clonazapam, synthroid. Then I get T. So the meds dont change anything. Maybe Xanax might for sleep.

 

[Aisling]

Hi guys
I know I am late in posting on here as this thread was started in Aug. however would you believe I got my tinnitus the day my baby boy was born 18th sept 2012. I got an epidural because it was an emergency c section and from the epidural they put the needle in too far I got a spinal leak and ringing in my ears started. Plus the fact the hospital didn't tell me what was wrong with me and they let me walk about when I should have been lying flat. I lost 20% of my hearing in my left ear in the lower frequencies but this came back to normal after 5 days. Now I have a hum and a hiss on my left ear and a hiss on my right ear. Why I am posting here is because I suffered post traumatic stress combined with post natal depression. My GP prescribed valium which was a life saver at the time along with lexapro. However I wouldn't take the lexapro because one of the side effects listed was tinnitus. I fought through this and feel a bit better now but I did contact a dr in UCSF who said I should take the lexapro because it will make the tinnitus go awày. I haven't taken it for fear of making my tinnitus louder when I am just about coping with it the way it is. So what's your thoughts do you think lexapro could work. My colleague who teaches genetics and medicine said it might work because of the link to GABA. These drugs affect the brain and if tinnitus is càused by changes in the brain then it would make sense!!

 

[Waldo Bracamontes]

After reading your opinions on some of the following "Anti-Depressant Drugs" Makes me wonder if i should consider any of the above? If so, which one would be best for a person like me that has tinnitus due to loud music. What do you guys recommend i do?

 

[Waldo Bracamontes]

The following statement from Kevin Hogan's webpage is somewhat astounding:

"What do you think of the Zoloft study where everyone improved and many had remission from just Zoloft?
"15 years ago I began to encourage people to look at Zoloft. In the medical community no one paid attention...not for a DECADE. THEN they started to figure it out... It's a logical choice because of it's anti-obsessional, anti depressive, and slight anti-anxiety effects. When the study showed everyone improved, I had no explanation, as that is very rare indeed. My personal experience with my clients with SSRI's in general and Effexor has been excellent. On a scientific note, anytime you see ALL people getting well... realize there might be a sponsor for the study with a vested interest. In this case, yes, Zoloft (and similar) is an excellent choice, but ALL...is not my experience and I've worked with more than probably anyone in the United States"

OK - I read this, and ....wow, are SSRI's the cure? This guy is explaining is no uncertain terms that Zoloft will fix it. Is it that simple? There is so much conflicting information out there, I don't know how to separate what is real. Kevin Hogan, sounds like the real deal. I believe him, because he makes sense to me.

On the Tinnitus Talk website, I have read some people blogging who say that they are taking SSRI's, and they have benefited. Some have said, yeah, "Zoloft damn near cured me", but they had undesireable side effects (male performance), so they stopped taking it.

If this is true, if Zoloft or Effexor can cure this, it's amazing. So, why isn't this standard treatment for tinnitus? Why are we screwing around with this condition, if simply taking Zoloft/SSRI's will fix it? Why even think about other therapies, like the $3000 Dichonics sound therapy (which is suppose to get you through a few hours)....?

This guy is telling us something that is so blantantly obvious to him, why hasn't this become standard treatment? Is it simply a problem in the medical community with prescribing anti-depressants for tinnitus?

The following statement from Kevin Hogan's webpage is somewhat astounding:

"What do you think of the Zoloft study where everyone improved and many had remission from just Zoloft?
"15 years ago I began to encourage people to look at Zoloft. In the medical community no one paid attention...not for a DECADE. THEN they started to figure it out... It's a logical choice because of it's anti-obsessional, anti depressive, and slight anti-anxiety effects. When the study showed everyone improved, I had no explanation, as that is very rare indeed. My personal experience with my clients with SSRI's in general and Effexor has been excellent. On a scientific note, anytime you see ALL people getting well... realize there might be a sponsor for the study with a vested interest. In this case, yes, Zoloft (and similar) is an excellent choice, but ALL...is not my experience and I've worked with more than probably anyone in the United States"

OK - I read this, and ....wow, are SSRI's the cure? This guy is explaining is no uncertain terms that Zoloft will fix it. Is it that simple? There is so much conflicting information out there, I don't know how to separate what is real. Kevin Hogan, sounds like the real deal. I believe him, because he makes sense to me.

On the Tinnitus Talk website, I have read some people blogging who say that they are taking SSRI's, and they have benefited. Some have said, yeah, "Zoloft damn near cured me", but they had undesireable side effects (male performance), so they stopped taking it.

If this is true, if Zoloft or Effexor can cure this, it's amazing. So, why isn't this standard treatment for tinnitus? Why are we screwing around with this condition, if simply taking Zoloft/SSRI's will fix it? Why even think about other therapies, like the $3000 Dichonics sound therapy (which is suppose to get you through a few hours)....?

This guy is telling us something that is so blantantly obvious to him, why hasn't this become standard treatment? Is it simply a problem in the medical community with prescribing anti-depressants for tinnitus?

Karl, what is zoloft exactly? Would you be able to provide me with some feedback of why it might work? I have been exposed to Loud Music, therefore that is my main tinnitus generator. Do you think this might help? Thank you!

 

[Louise]

Hi Waldo,

I dont think anyone on here would be prepared to make a recommendation on which drugs you should take. It has to be up to the individual after careful research. All drugs have side-effects and some anti-depressants are noted as 'ototoxic' (poisonous to the ear) and so it has to be at your own risk. Having said that many people of this site do take anti-depressants. I think they work more to make you feel better and so less bothered by T. If you read Lisa Walker's thread you'll see her thoughts on Zoloft.

 

[click]

Hi guys
I know I am late in posting on here as this thread was started in Aug. however would you believe I got my tinnitus the day my baby boy was born 18th sept 2012. I got an epidural because it was an emergency c section and from the epidural they put the needle in too far I got a spinal leak and ringing in my ears started. Plus the fact the hospital didn't tell me what was wrong with me and they let me walk about when I should have been lying flat. I lost 20% of my hearing in my left ear in the lower frequencies but this came back to normal after 5 days. Now I have a hum and a hiss on my left ear and a hiss on my right ear. Why I am posting here is because I suffered post traumatic stress combined with post natal depression. My GP prescribed valium which was a life saver at the time along with lexapro. However I wouldn't take the lexapro because one of the side effects listed was tinnitus. I fought through this and feel a bit better now but I did contact a dr in UCSF who said I should take the lexapro because it will make the tinnitus go awày. I haven't taken it for fear of making my tinnitus louder when I am just about coping with it the way it is. So what's your thoughts do you think lexapro could work. My colleague who teaches genetics and medicine said it might work because of the link to GABA. These drugs affect the brain and if tinnitus is càused by changes in the brain then it would make sense!!

I know nothing about the drug Aisling but I'd read this first:

http://www.drugs.com/forum/need-talk/lexapro-tinnitus-38616.html

"Just curious to see if anyone else has had similar experiences. About one month ago i asked my GP for some Xanax to help me sleep and to deal with occasional panic attacks. The GP refused claiming that Xanax was too addictive. Lexapro was prescribed. I've taken SSRI's in the past (paxil, effexor) but never stayed on them very long because of the sexual side effects. I'm familiar with the "dosing period" required by SSRI's.
So i tried to stick it out with Lexapro but my reactions were worse than i've ever experienced (Major jaw clenching, sweats, axienty, etc.) After my fourth dose, i experienced a hot flash so bad it felt like i was going to die. So i took some of my sister's Xanax and fell asleep for about 6 hours. When i woke up i had ringing in my left ear.
Well, it's been over a month now and the ringing has not disapeared. Sometimes is so low i can barely notice it, but other times it wakes me up in the middle of the night. I went to see an ENT who verified there was no fluid in the ear. But i do have a slight hearing loss. I'm scheduled to go back in a week for more teststing (testing for nerve damage)
Has anyone heard of problems like this with Lexapro. Will this ringing ever go away?
edit: btw, i stopped taking lexapro after the 4th dose."

 

[joe]

If anyone is going down this route I would recommend taking effexor, its more tolerable, and has better overall effects than Zoloft.. Effexor is also known as Venlafaxine. If you suffer from Glaucoma I recommend frequent visits to have your eyes checked as this drug put a little pressure on the optical nerve, but nothing too major.

 

[Louise]

If anyone is going down this route I would recommend taking effexor, its more tolerable, and has better overall effects than Zoloft.. Effexor is also known as Venlafaxine. If you suffer from Glaucoma I recommend frequent visits to have your eyes checked as this drug put a little pressure on the optical nerve, but nothing too major.

Do you rate that better than Mirtazapine Joe? I was undecided between asking for Mirtazapine or Venlafaxine and went for Mirtazapine because there are no recordings of it causing tinnitus, as some other ADs do.

 

[joe]

Hi, Louise. Mirtazapine has a very good report of enhancing mood, it has had some good results, on tolerability and its very similar to venlafaxine in structure. Both drugs are rated as good as each other.