Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Efficacy Debate

[lapidus]

I'd rather boil my own head than watch the Oprah Winfrey show, and I have an interest in the therapy.

But I cannot be convinced by a prospective study in rats. There are studies that prove LLLT is ineffective but as I understand they have a different wavelength to Dr Wilden's clinic, so for me the question remains: Why no Dr Wilden study?

Even to start off small and organise a relatively inexpensive trial would give me some confidence. I am a skeptic, it's my nature, so I need to see conclusive proof. I need to understand that xx% of people show a statistically significant improvement, that the study accounted for factors that may have caused bias, that it was independent enough for the results to be trusted.

If I can be convinced that it works then I will consider the treatment.

There is also a swedish study by Dr. Wilden's protoge Michael Zazzio that was aimed towards hyperacusis. That study has very positive results but has been very critisized by swedish doctors. I do however trust the people who claims that this helped them. If it has helped some people, I can't see why not make some more research in this field? But just like you I'm a skeptic so I want some hardcore evidence that this actually works and that it doesnt have any side effects.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Why no Dr Wilden study? Even to start off small and organise a relatively inexpensive trial would give me some confidence. I am a skeptic, it's my nature, so I need to see conclusive proof.

It doesn't take a skeptic to apply just a little common sense.

If LLLT really did what Wilden claims it does, the man would be up for a Nobel Prize. He isn't. What's the mystery here?

Stephen Nagler

 

[tomytl]

It doesn't take a skeptic to apply just a little common sense.

If LLLT worked really did what Wilden claims it does, the man would be up for a Nobel Prize. He isn't. What's the mystery here?

Stephen Nagler

I'm sceptic too, but there are indeed some studies with some positive outcomes.
Every treatment or drugs I got from ENT's didn't help me neither... i.E. the evidence
of infusion ist about the same like treatment with LLLT. Some are positive, some are negative.
There are people where this or the other therapy helped.
But yes, I won't be a miracle drug, otherwise we would have a tool to cure T,H & HL.

Greets Tom

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I'm sceptic too, but there are indeed some studies with some positive outcomes.

Every study LLLT I have ever seen with a "positive outcome" has holes big enough to drive a truck through. They have been looked at upside-down and backwards on a number of boards.

Every treatment or drugs I got from ENT's didn't help me neither... i.E. the evidence
of infusion ist about the same like treatment with LLLT. Some are positive, some are negative.

Same story. I have yet to see an infusion study really worth a flip.

Friends, if there truly were a legitimate predictable way to mitigate the tinnitus signal, every single ENT in the world would be recommending it enthusiastically to their patients with chronic intrusive tinnitus. Do you really think ENTs enjoy telling patients that they have nothing to offer them?

Stephen Nagler

 

[attheedgeofscience]

so it says, it works right after acoustic trauma. how about some long time injured cells?
Is there also a study about?
How many watt does Mr. Wilden use to irradiate the ear? I guess also 200mW...

I will follow-up on your questions end of next week after I get my post LLLT audiogram done. I am trying to find a place in Leipzig where I can get an audiogram done measuring all the way up to 16 kHz. Alternatively, I will get one done at the same clinic as last time (= 0 - 12,5 kHz).

I have more or less decided that I will not publish the results on the public part of this forum as there is too much hostility towards certain "treatments" - especially LLLT. This is something I have already complained to Markku about. The critics of LLLT - instead of being inspired by my results - will go to even greater lengths to dismiss any credibility the treatment has. Why that is, I do not know (but in a few cases I do suspect a "political agenda"). What I do know - however - is that this attitude is something that must be dealt with. And if Markku will not - or cannot - deal with it, then I will. Therefore I will distribute my audiograms in a PM instead. If someone has an interest in seeing my audiogram, they are welcome to request it (provided they are not part of the anti-LLLT propaganda machine).

Some might say that they see the above as a defeat. For me it is neither a defeat, nor a victory, or anything inbetween. At the end of the day, I am just a patient - like everyone else - who is trying to get better. I have no specific agenda on this board except for one thing: getting cured, or at least nearly so...! The question that some people on this board should probably ask themselves is whether they are part of the problem, or part of the solution. But as we all know, being a pioneer has never been easy:

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
--Arthur Schopenhauer, German Philosopher

 

[tomytl]

Every study LLLT I have ever seen with a "positive outcome" has holes big enough to drive a truck through. They have been looked at upside-down and backwards on a number of boards.

Same story. I have yet to see an infusion study really worth a flip.

Friends, if there truly were a legitimate predictable way to mitigate the tinnitus signal, every single ENT in the world would be recommending it enthusiastically to their patients with chronic intrusive tinnitus. Do you really think ENTs enjoy telling patients that they have nothing to offer them?

Stephen Nagler

Dear Mr. Nagler,
Thanks for your opinion about!

I don't think ENT's hide some therapy from their patients. But it's also the case, that many ENT's
do not know a lot about Tinnitus/Hyperacusis, because the have more fields where they can
take action, nose, neck and and and...
The sensory part of the ear is still a blackbox and there aren't any causal treatments.
But there are many approaches or theories... today I read somewhere that Aspirin can
protect inner ear cells from cancer drug... another day you read, Aspirin might be ototoxic.
Now we know, there can be hidden hearing loss, so mainly the neurons are likely to be damaged,
tomorrow we read, that NAC will protect the hearing....
And so, there are some people believe the LLLT will help to repair damaged hair cells through
ATP production.
I really don't know who has a solid and scientific data of any treatments.
But there are more and more people desperatly looking for at least a treatment with at least
a little relief.....
I am not pro or cons LLLT I just am just desperate enough to try to end this f.... nightmare.

Greets Tom

 

[tomytl]

I will follow-up on your questions end of next week after I get my post LLLT audiogram done. I am trying to find a place in Leipzig where I can get an audiogram done measuring all the way up to 16 kHz. Alternatively, I will get one done at the same clinic as last time (= 0 - 12,5 kHz).

I have more or less decided that I will not publish the results on the public part of this forum as there is too much hostility towards certain "treatments" - especially LLLT. This is something I have already complained to Markku about. The critics of LLLT - instead of being inspired by my results - will go to even greater lengths to dismiss any credibility the treatment has. Why that is, I do not know (but in a few cases I do suspect a "political agenda"). What I do know - however - is that this attitude is something that must be dealt with. And if Markku will not - or cannot - deal with it, then I will. Therefore I will distribute my audiograms in a PM instead. If someone has an interest in seeing my audiogram, they are welcome to request it (provided they are not part of the anti-LLLT propaganda machine).

Some might say that they see the above as a defeat. For me it is neither a defeat, nor a victory, or anything inbetween. At the end of the day, I am just a patient - like everyone else - who is trying to get better. I have no specific agenda on this board except for one thing: getting cured, or at least nearly so...! The question that some people on this board should probably ask themselves is whether they are part of the problem, or part of the solution. But as we all know, being a pioneer has never been easy:

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
--Arthur Schopenhauer, German Philosopher

Hi,

I don't think there are groups of contra LLLT-Treatments in this forum. I think it's important
we can discuss about different approaches and we are all thankful for every aspect.
There are doubts about many treatments, also for LLLT. I think this happens to every
available therapy in the field of inner ear problems.
Some people could profit from infusions, other (inkl. me) never experienced any positive result.
So I can't say, infusions don't work in generally, maybe I'm wrong.
I could easely say, infusions are featured by the pharma lobby... But I really don't think that my
ENT will suck the money out of my pockets if he recommends me infusions.

So it's good we can discuss pro and cons about every possible treatment. I'm really excited
about your improvements in heairing threshold, that's why I also ordered this home laser.
I give it a try...

I really think almost everyone appriciate your inputs and thoughts, and we should keep this
board how it is, a great place to share.

Greets Tom

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I don't think ENT's hide some therapy from their patients. But it's also the case, that many ENT's
do not know a lot about Tinnitus/Hyperacusis, ...

If there were a legitimate predictable way to mitigate the tinnitus signal, every single ENT in the world would begin recommending it enthusiastically within a week - even the ones who "do not know a lot about Tinnitus/Hyperacusis."

Stephen Nagler

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I have more or less decided that I will not publish the results on the public part of this forum as there is too much hostility towards certain "treatments" - especially LLLT.

If your post-LLLT audiogram has appreciably improved, everyone on this board will be thrilled for you. And if your post-LLLT audiogram does not show appreciable improvement, everyone on this board will be disappointed for you.

Stephen Nagler

 

[tomytl]

If there were a legitimate predictable way to mitigate the tinnitus signal, every single ENT in the world would begin recommending it enthusiastically within a week - even the ones who "do not know a lot about Tinnitus/Hyperacusis."

Stephen Nagler

Exactly, this is what I also think.
But infortunately, there is absolutely no causal cure...
So some people come to this board and discuss different things, that's good.
Here it's also a place of experimentals... I have never heard of so many things before,
but there are tactics who help, maybe not for everybody.
We are discussing about Tinnitus, but nobody can exactly explaint how it happens or
what exactly it is... as long, everything is an experiment.

Greest Tom

 

[tomytl]

If your post-LLLT audiogram has appreciably improved, everyone on this board will be thrilled for you. And if your post-LLLT audiogram does not show appreciable improvement, everyone on this board will be disappointed for you.

Stephen Nagler

I don't think it's thrilled or dissapointed. It's interesting. And even there aren't any outcome,
we might know a little bit more.
I also found an official seriouse "normal" ENT Clinic in Germay, who offers LLLT for Tinnitus.
There are working real "ENT's".... they claim, that 7 out of 10 have some success.

Greets Tom

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I don't think it's thrilled or dissapointed.

Whenever anybody finds relief, I am thrilled for that person. I don't give a rat's aspic how that person found relief or why.

And whenever anybody puts time, effort, and hope into a therapy only to find no improvement at its conclusion, I am disappointed for that person.

In the final analysis, support boards are about people - not about things. At least that's how I see it.

Stephen Nagler

 

[lapidus]

Whenever anybody finds relief, I am thrilled for that person. I don't give a rat's aspic how that person found relief or why.

But let's say that someone finds relief using LLLT. Arent you interested, as a doctor, of WHY this therapy worked on one person and not another? And if it worked on one person, shouldnt the doctors and researcher be interested in exploring this further, so it one day may work on more people?

 

[Dr. Nagler]

But let's say that someone finds relief using LLLT. Arent you interested, as a doctor, of WHY this therapy worked on one person and not another? And if it worked on one person, shouldnt the doctors and researcher be interested in exploring this further, so it one day may work on more people?

Two issues here:

(1) If a person finds relief - regardless of the circumstances - I am happy for that person. Anecdotal events are very real for the person involved.

(2) As a doctor who has to make responsible recommendations to my patients, however, I look for reliable and verifiable studies published in juried scientific journals. Anecdotal events are meaningless to me in that capacity.

Stephen Nagler

 

[lapidus]

Yeah, I totally get that you can't recomend something that hasnt been scientifically proven or is reliable to a patient @Dr. Nagler . But what I was wondering was why researchers dont explore deeper into this field since it obviously has helped some people. I can't just believe that everyone who reports good results from this treatment is working for the LLLT providers, like in some big scheme to get more patients/money.

I am not for or against LLLT, I'm just very curious why there isnt more research being done.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Yeah, I totally get that you can't recomend something that hasnt been scientifically proven or is reliable to a patient @Dr. Nagler.

I sometimes recommend things that haven't been scientifically proven. But when I do make such a recommendation, I state that it hasn't been scientifically proven and go on to explain why in my opinion it is worthy of consideration anyway.

But what I was wondering was why researchers dont explore deeper into this field since it obviously has helped some people.

Because there is not a single reliable and verifiable study published in a juried scientific journal concluding that LLLT is any better than placebo for the treatment of tinnitus ... and researchers have budgets - that's why.

I can't just believe that everyone who reports good results from this treatment is working for the LLLT providers, like in some big scheme to get more patients/money.

I don't think all of them are. But let's face it - this is the Internet. How many people on this board have you actually met face-to-face? You really don't have a clue who anybody here is, do you? All you know about people posting here is what they themselves want you to know.

And that would include me!

Stephen Nagler

 

[tomytl]

I sometimes recommend things that haven't been scientifically proven. But when I do make such a recommendation, I state that it hasn't been scientifically proven and go on to explain why in my opinion it is worthy of consideration anyway.



Because there is not a single reliable and verifiable study published in a juried scientific journal concluding that LLLT is any better than placebo for the treatment of tinnitus ... and researchers have budgets - that's why.



I don't think all of them are. But let's face it - this is the Internet. How many people on this board have you actually met face-to-face? You really don't have a clue who anybody here is, do you? All you know about people posting here is what they themselves want you to know.

And that would include me!

Stephen Nagler

But at least, there happens something with this light according to this abstract which is not about Tinnitus.
Maybe this light does really something with the inner ear cells too or if we learned these days, maybe with the neurons
underlying the hair cells...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC522143/

What about Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy...Many clinics claim it should be helpful, I had it, was not helpful at all...
But I gave it a try, because there have been people (I don't really know but I trusted) gave me this advice.

At least, I we shouldn't expect any miracle cure, because medicine is very slow. We still treat everything
with Aspirin ;-)

 

[Dr. Nagler]

What about Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy...Many clinics claim it should be helpful,

What do you expect? They're HBO clinics. Look, I can possibly see giving HBO a try during the first couple of weeks after an auditory insult - to help revive shocked, but not yet dead, hair cells. But past that, all the oxygen in the world isn't going to bring back the dead. You don't do CPR on a corpse. And that's what a dead hair cell is - a corpse.

I had it, was not helpful at all...

Of course it wasn't. (See above)

But I gave it a try, because there have been people (I don't really know but I trusted) gave me this advice.

And that's how charlatans make a living.

Like I said about LLLT, if HBO predictably mitigated the tinnitus signal, somebody would be up for a Nobel Prize.

Stephen Nagler

 

[tomytl]

What do you expect? They're HBO clinics. Look, I can possibly see giving HBO a try during the first couple of weeks after an auditory insult - to help revive shocked, but not yet dead, hair cells. But past that, all the oxygen in the world isn't going to bring back the dead. You don't do CPR on a corpse. And that's what a dead hair cell is - a corpse.



Of course it wasn't. (See above)



And that's how charlatans make a living.

Like I said about LLLT, if HBO predictably mitigated the tinnitus signal, somebody would be up for a Nobel Prize.

Stephen Nagler

But how do we know that hair cells can be shocked? I recently attended a online presentation of Stanford about what happens in the cochlea when it comes to trauma. If there is 1 hair cell bundle undergoes adoptosis, mostly neighbour hair cells also die. Additionally, some people do harm more than others with the same circumstances. There seem to be many individual factors.
The reason for this is completly unknown. Then a few days ago we read about new findings from "hidden hearing loss", where neurons degenerate even the hair cell keeps alive.
So we still do not know enough about all the mechanism of hearing loss and Tinnitus.
Maybe HBO has positive effect, Maybe NAC can have positive effect, Maybe Vitamin E or B12 can have positive Effect, Maybe even Aspirin, Maybe LLLT...
The terrible thing is, in most cases you will miss one of the above therapies and so you have the feeling about "I have missed something"...
Meanwhile here in Switzerland, they send you home with a pack of Ginko!...so you will miss everything above and Ginko does almost nothing than noise in my head.

This is what's a real real problem for us!

At the end we must accept, that we can't do a lot against these problems with remedies or some rocket science tech, but we might try and learn how to cope with the situation.

Greets Tom

 

[HelmutK.]

As I made the therapy with success, my ears were "prepared" that means I had improvements before by using ear plugs and B12. After a new crisis my TI became worse. Then I made the lasertreatment and I lost my tinnitus. I still wear earplugs but not so consequent than before. After the therapy it took several weeks with ups and downs until the Ti was complete cured. So I cannot say a lot about the scientific backgroud, but I can say it works.
Also here in Germany we have several Forums where LLLT is discussed and also here we have the problem, that if someone tells about positive results the discussion becomes very unserious. So I hope it is not the same here. Especially as I cannot say anything about science background but I try to give hope with my story to other people who suffer from Ti. Especially because I became very depressive when I started my internet research after the ENT´s could not help me. I only found negativism in all the ti plattforms and as soon as someone was telling good news the threads became "unreadable" because everybody began to kill the hope wich was included in those messages. If I would have given up hope I would still suffer from Ti. LLLT is not a solution for everybody but it was my solution.
I am in contact with a lot of persons who suffer from the same and everybody is afraid about the different treatments. So I think it is necessary to try everything and not to loose hope!!!!

best wishes from Germany

 

[Owch]

Therefore I will distribute my audiograms in a PM instead. If someone has an interest in seeing my audiogram, they are welcome to request it

I would be very interested in seeing your Audiograms when you get them. Apologies for posting my request in public but the system won't allow me to send you a PM

Thanks

 

[Sound Wave]

OFF TOPIC: This thread reminds of me the 'subjective vs objective' debate in the audiophile communities. Here's one objectivist view on that. Take this with a pinch of salt, as they say...

http://nwavguy.blogspot.fi/2011/05/subjective-vs-objective-debate.html

 

[Dr. Nagler]

But how do we know that hair cells can be shocked?

We don't.

But here's something we do know.

We know you can't do CPR on a corpse. That's what a dead hair cell is - a corpse. And all the low level magic red lights in the world will not change that fact.

I am going to leave this thread before my blood pressure goes through the roof.

My parting words: As I mentioned earlier, I will be absolutely thrilled for @attheedgeofscience if his audiogram shows improvement. If it's better, that will likely be because he really really wants it to be better and will subconsciously strain more to hear than he might otherwise do. (That's why they do double-blind studies, by the way.) But if @attheedgeofscience is happy, then I will be happy for him.

Stephen Nagler

 

[RaZaH]

Well...I for one am very interested in seeing the results and I think you should post them publicly, who cares what people say or think. I sure don't.

 

[rainman]

As you see dear Helmut, from Dr.Nagler posting, you have been to naive. This site isnt better, people will get their blood pressure in out of control when you come here with some positive story. Silly world, isn't it?

 

[attheedgeofscience]

To those who follow my posts:

I went by the ENT surgery clinic, Acquaklinik (which is headed by Professor Strauss) today and asked them to set up an audiology appointment for me (extended audiometric test, 0 - 16 kHz). They tried contacting the University Hospital of Leipzig which has excellent audiology facilities (with a "bomb shelter" constructed audiology booth ie. completely sound proof). But their equipment is only calibrated for up to 10 kHz (and normally they only do the standard 0-8 kHz test anyway; something I already know from previous visits). The Acquaklinik tried contacting a few other clinics, but nowhere would they test above 12,5 kHz. It looks like I will have to go to Berlin for such a test. For next week's test, I therefore have an appointment at the same clinic as last time (ie. a 0 - 12,5 kHz test). The test is on Thursday. I will either disclose the results on Thursday or on Friday in a PM. The reason I may wait until Friday is because I have a follow-up appointment with one of the doctors at the Acquaklinik this day where I will be discussing my progress so far, upcoming HIFU consultation, vitamin B12 injections, and one or two "other things" that they want to discuss with me. (The Acquaklinik here in Leipzig have been handling certain "components" of my experimental medicine "journey", and I have remained in contact with them throughout the various stages of my treatments.)

The Acquaklinik is top-class. They want their patients to succeed, and will do pretty much anything to make it happen.

I have documented all of my experimental treatment projects with Markku. So my authenticity should not be in question at this point, but just in case it is, I will have the upcoming and previous audiology tests stamped and signed by an ENT at the clinic performing it. This way it can be seen that the clinic performing it is not affiliated with LLLT in any way.

But even with a signature and stamp, critics will always find a way to criticise results. In fact, one member has felt it necessary to post almost 20 critical posts about LLLT in this thread alone. Most people would think that one, two or perhaps three posts should be enough to make a point. But apparently not. Certainly, no one will ever see me write 20 critical posts about vitamins, HBO, or TRT. In any event, as I do not want to be seen as an LLLT-advocate, but rather as someone who is exploring different options, I have decided not to disclose my results publicly, but in a PM. In the PM I will also give a status on any changes to my tinnitus levels and the treatment protocol I have used.

 

[Markku]

In any event, as I do not want to be seen as an LLLT-advocate, but rather as someone who is exploring different options, I have decided not to disclose my results publicly, but in a PM. In the PM I will also give a status on any changes to my tinnitus levels and the treatment protocol I have used.

Hey,

You should probably change your privacy settings so members can PM you.

This thread shouldn't be filled with requests, instead anyone who wants to ask for the results should PM you directly.

Once ATEOS has changed his privacy settings, a PM can be sent to him by clicking this link:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/conversations/add?to=attheedgeofscience

 

[Dr. Nagler]

In fact, one member has felt it necessary to post almost 20 critical posts about LLLT in this thread alone.

I suppose that member feels rather strongly about the subject.

Stephen Nagler

 

[KingRoanoke]

You'd think there would not be a debate about this. If something worked, it would be obvious. Tinnitus is almost ubiquitous the world over - the second anything that really works is available, it would be obviously prescribed. This is like when I tell people I struggle with this and they tell me to take lipoflavanoids. An actual ENT just laughs at that, but people can think literally any holistic/vitamin/whatever thing will help. If an objective treatment existed to abate this ruckus, there would not be a debate about what works and what doesn't!


Why is this thing sold exclusively on some really shoddy website with broken english? Why isn't he selling this invention for millions to the global pharmaceutical and manufacturing market? This guy would be on the cover of Nature or Scientific American if it worked. He would be the new Jonas Salk. And yet no information about Wilden comes up anywhere. Come on people!!

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Hey,

You should probably change your privacy settings so members can PM you.

This thread shouldn't be filled with requests, instead anyone who wants to ask for the results should PM you directly.

Once ATEOS has changed his privacy settings, a PM can be sent to him by clicking this link:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/conversations/add?to=attheedgeofscience

I don't accept private messages (it is bad enough that people track me down via facebook), but I have amended my privacy settings so that a message can be left on my "wall".