Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[VRZ78]

@VRZ78 unfortunately, there is no way to turn the beeping sound off. He tried but it is part of the package .. If I knew that a huge spike in tinnitus is normal during the first session and that it always gets better with further applications, I would get the home kit designed by Wilden and try that. I just don't want to make things even worse - they are already very bad.

Well I just ordered the home laser so I'll tell you if it works...

 

[Cal18]

Question: My ears seem to be overly stimulated and sensitive right now from my antidepressant reaction/stress. Does anyone think this would cause increased stimulation which could be damaging? Or does it work in the opposite way, causing a "soothing" reaction. Thanks

 

[Bobby B]

It will have no effect whatsoever if your T is caused by depression / stress

 

[Cal18]

It will have no effect whatsoever if your T is caused by depression / stress

I also have hearing loss so my T may be ototoxic, I can't say for sure if the T is from hearing loss or not but I'm willing to try it - just don't want to aggravate it.

 

[Bobby B]

Well it's worth a try then
The good news is that since the recent availability of very high power LED in the near IR range you can have a high power Light therapy (LT) device that has a lot more punch - which translates into effectiveness - compared to the laser "home device", while being also safer and costing close to nothing.

I orderd that 5000mw Ready to use out of the box lamp in the 850nm range and it cost me a whooping 12 dollars

its a 3-4 years process once you start if you do have some improvements it will take some time But you only need to do 10 minutes per ear twice a week

 

[SilverSpiral]

Well it's worth a try then
The good news is that since the recent availability of very high power LED in the near IR range you can have a high power Light therapy (LT) device that has a lot more punch - which translates into effectiveness - compared to the laser "home device", while being also safer and costing close to nothing.

I orderd that 5000mw Ready to use out of the box lamp in the 850nm range and it cost me a whooping 12 dollars

its a 3-4 years process once you start if you do have some improvements it will take some time But you only need to do 10 minutes per ear twice a week

Aren't you worried 5000mw is too strong? If I'm using 1500mw can I do it longer?

 

[lolkas]

Aren't you worried 5000mw is too strong? If I'm using 1500mw can I do it longer?

Kinda agree, i know wavelength = how deep it can penetrate, however 5000mw might heat things up pretty quick and even cause some damage ? Slowly cooked brain is not what i am looking for (joke, lol)...but really ?

 

[Bobby B]

Guys
Please read the study on traumatic brain injury using LT I posted in these threads
It's all there they did the testing for us already
They used 10w pulsed on brain wihtout issues
Only a fraction of light penetrates deep enough

 

[SilverSpiral]

Guys
Please read the study on traumatic brain injury using LT I posted in these threads
It's all there they did the testing for us already
They used 10w pulsed on brain wihtout issues
Only a fraction of light penetrates deep enough

So is 1500mw going to do anything then? is it safe to do longer than 10 mins twice per week?

 

[Bobby B]

Zazzio specifically mentionned to not do it more than twice a week if it's high power - he uses 650mw or so for 10-15 min

It may be safe but you run into negative results and slowing down of progress issues

There is only so much the cells can absorb at a time

 

[SilverSpiral]

Zazzio specifically mentionned to not do it more than twice a week if it's high power - he uses 650mw or so for 10-15 min

It may be safe but you run into negative results and slowing down of progress issues

There is only so much the cells can absorb at a time

See, I'm unsure of how all this works. Like if there is only so much cells can absorb, is it still where longer sessions are more beneficial than shorter ones? Like how would 5 minutes every second day, compare to 10 minutes twice a week? Are the minutes 5-10 more beneficial than the first 5 minutes? Or would more regular sessions of 5 minutes be more beneficial if the first 5 minutes are as beneficial as the last 5 minutes (of 10 at once) but doing 5 minutes at a time would avoid "overdoing it"?

Also, you reference traumatic brain injury studies for validating the safety of the 5000mW you are using, but surely, the inner ear is not the same as the brain. In fact I think it is safe to assume that in many ways, the middle/inner ear is much more fragile than the brain as an organic structure. Are you sure it is a valid comparison? I did not see the study you were referencing, was this high mw brain LLLT treatment delivered through the ear?

 

[Bobby B]

This guy used a real 20w LED device - he did not melt his ears or head

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...riences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-50#post-189037

 

[vaka]

Hello, I am asking from the hearing loss side: Has anyone a before and after audiogram which shows improvement after LLLT, which is not done by the doctor who was treating with LLLT?

 

[Bobby B]

Yes I had some improvements : 40db loss at 4khz that went to 30 then stabilized at 25 .

How much is due to LT vs natural healing we will never know
This is in line with the 20% improvements in avg as per Wilden
I may have had more improvements in the 8khz + range but found no testing clinic that can do it here locally

Besides you can dig in this thread there a few AG posted from various people

 

[lolkas]

Yes I had some improvements : 40db loss at 4khz that went to 30 then stabilized at 25 .

How much is due to LT vs natural healing we will never know
This is in line with the 20% improvements in avg as per Wilden
I may have had more improvements in the 8khz + range but found no testing clinic that can do it here locally

Besides you can dig in this thread there a few AG posted from various people

Hmm so i beleive 20% imptovememt its within lets say 6mo pr so, right ? I am curious if we do like 3 years worth of LLLT (assuming its done correctly and no damage to ears has been done from noise, chemical and stress) you can perhaps get at very least 80% regeneration done ? Somce red light enables cells to work/repair, and they are very healthy - that stuff should be able to get repaired.

 

[Foncky]

I don't think that works like that.

 

[lolkas]

I don't think that works like that.

Well based on what i have seen is that LLLT enables & enhances growth factors. Since nutrients and some blood/plasma still gets supplied to cochlea (very minimal and in the "roots") you can enchance growth factors forever, just because nutrients/plasma get there continiously in some amounts.
I.e. you should be able to regenerate majority via long-term LLLT + proper nutritional support to have good blood and keeping ears safe.
I dont understand why exactly i am wrong, please correct me.

 

[Foncky]

If you have a fair amount of visible hearing loss, it's likely you have a fair amount of busted hair cells. They're dead, gone, nothing will regenerate them.

 

[Rubenslash]

Lolkas, if that were true LLLT would be a widely-used treatment across the world..

 

[Bobby B]

The way I see this - the completley destroyed, dead cells that give the loudest T aren't going to be regenerated no matter what - so basically the T isn't going to be cured.

The less damaged part and some of the nerves are going to be repaired so that sound quality improves and H improves to a certain degree .

So at the end it really depends on what kind of damage you have to start with.

Underlying damagae is different for everybody so that results will also vary a lot.

I also think that repairing damaged nerves is crucial that's why you need a powerful light beam in the 800nm or more range which penetrates deep as all this is deeply buried inside the head behind tissue and thick bones .

This is were the red light does not work as its stopped by even a thin layer of skin.

Shining a red 5mw laser pointer to someone with eyes closed isn't going to damage thier eyes becuase the beam is cut by the skin.

There are a lot of studies showing nerve regenation with LT even in the IR range (3000nm)

 

[SilverSpiral]

The way I see this - the completley destroyed, dead cells that give the loudest T aren't going to be regenerated no matter what - so basically the T isn't going to be cured.

The less damaged part and some of the nerves are going to be repaired so that sound quality improves and H improves to a certain degree .

So at the end it really depends on what kind of damage you have to start with.

Underlying damagae is different for everybody so that results will also vary a lot.

I also think that repairing damaged nerves is crucial that's why you need a powerful light beam in the 800nm or more range which penetrates deep as all this is deeply buried inside the head behind tissue and thick bones .

This is were the red light does not work as its stopped by even a thin layer of skin.

Shining a red 5mw laser pointer to someone with eyes closed isn't going to damage thier eyes becuase the beam is cut by the skin.

There are a lot of studies showing nerve regenation with LT even in the IR range (3000nm)

If the light is able to penetrate so much, what eyewear should be used when using one of the IR lamps then? Or is there much risk since you are pointing it at your ear and not your eye?

 

[Bobby B]

I use one of these cheap black eyemasks uses for airplanes just in case but I also don't point it at my eyes I fact the right angle is slightly to the rear of the head when looking from the top.

Also the other factor is time - if you look at the various nerves and hair cell regeneration studies using LT they all conclude that it only works well at the acute stage. At least in rats.

So the other variable which yields in results is how long you had damage before starting treatment.

 

[SilverSpiral]

I use one of these cheap black eyemasks uses for airplanes just in case but I also don't point it at my eyes I fact the right angle is slightly to the rear of the head when looking from the top.

Also the other factor is time - if you look at the various nerves and hair cell regeneration studies using LT they all conclude that it only works well at the acute stage. At least in rats.

So the other variable which yields in results is how long you had damage before starting treatment.

If the light can penetrate flesh so deeply I doubt a black eyemask has much efficacy?

 

[Cal18]

So I tried to contact the Lucky Laser people and I got one answer a couple days ago but now nothing so I can't follow through with purchase. Does anyone know a direct way to purchase it instead of emailing them? I would like to treat my partially fried hair cells.

Or should I just go with Dr Wilden's - at least he got back to me and looked at my audiograms. But from this thread it seems like the Lucky is the way to go, or are they pretty much the same? Sorry, all the 5000mW numbers and stuff are over my head, you guys have been at this a lot longer. Thanks!

 

[Bobby B]

If the light can penetrate flesh so deeply I doubt a black eyemask has much efficacy?

Big difference between a complete opaque object and somewhat translucid one

 

[lolkas]

@Rubenslash we haven't seen study with patient that had absolute best diet with all organic food and 3 years long LLLT, so that's why I am wondering.

@Bobby B well, stem cells and gene therapy will be able to grow new in order to replace dead ones, so yes - repairing 99% dead cell is not going to be an easy task.

Now, I am curious on light delivery method you want to propose. If I am following you correctly, we need:

A)Build headset/helmet looking thing that has few layers or of rails/guides you could mount laser/led on to
B)create fiber-optic guide for laser with isolated housing for LED
C)Mount LED housing on helmet, connect fiber-optic guide and mount it on rail + adjust angle

I think fiber-optic cable will change wavelength of light based on his own specs, so it has to be close to what you are looking for or that won't work you think ?

 

[Bobby B]

No need to spend all this time building something out of LED

Just buy this it has everything you need
- high power light source in the right wavelength to penetrate deep. Much more power than any previous home device.

- wide enough beam to cover all areas around the cochlea like Wilden does at his clinic
- the probe is the right size to hold against the ear
- the price is good
- it's safe , a forum member inadvertently stared right into it for a few seconds and had no issues but of course don't stare into it.

Do 10 minutes per ear twice a week like Zazzio recommends. Too often will slow down progress as cells cannot absorb too much each time .

Do it for 3 years while protecting your ears from sound above 70db

The LED have a lifespan of 10'000h so at this rate , you can pass this to your kids and grand- kids when your done - or even better sell it back so you don't loose all this money

 

[BBApple]

So I tried to contact the Lucky Laser people and I got one answer a couple days ago but now nothing so I can't follow through with purchase. Does anyone know a direct way to purchase it instead of emailing them? I would like to treat my partially fried hair cells.

Or should I just go with Dr Wilden's - at least he got back to me and looked at my audiograms. But from this thread it seems like the Lucky is the way to go, or are they pretty much the same? Sorry, all the 5000mW numbers and stuff are over my head, you guys have been at this a lot longer. Thanks!

I had no issues purchasing my Lucky Laser. Emailed them ("Lulu Tai") and communication was great all throughout the process. You need to do a wire transfer of funds (they'll give the details needed by your bank). Once they receive the funds, they send out the laser quickly (next day, in my case) and you get a tracking number. It took just over a week to arrive here in Canada. I don't know of any other way to purchase it.

 

[BBApple]

View attachment 12051 No need to spend all this time building something out of LED

Just buy this it has everything you need
- high power light source in the right wavelength to penetrate deep. Much more power than any previous home device.

- wide enough beam to cover all areas around the cochlea like Wilden does at his clinic
- the probe is the right size to hold against the ear
- the price is good
- it's safe , a forum member inadvertently stared right into it for a few seconds and had no issues but of course don't stare into it.

Do 10 minutes per ear twice a week like Zazzio recommends. Too often will slow down progress as cells cannot absorb too much each time .

Do it for 3 years while protecting your ears from sound above 70db

The LED have a lifespan of 10'000h so at this rate , you can pass this to your kids and grand- kids when your done - or even better sell it back so you don't loose all this money

70db? Seriously? That's tough to do while trying to live a normal life. Street noise, car noise, etc. will expose you to that level easily. Constantly wearing earplugs is likely to worsen reactive T or H (ask me how I know!). Any kind of therapy that requires anyone to jump through unrealistic hoops is obviously going to fail.

 

[Bobby B]

Let's keep the details on "noise protection" plans out of this thread then - there are already tons of discussion on this and this will only make the LLLT thread even longer than what it is and specific info hard to dig out.