Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Long-Lasting Everyday Home-Practiced Experiences

#31
lymebite said:
I have been trying light therapy for about 18 months. As to the source of the Konftec protocol, I do not know. The breaks were advised to me by a LLLT clinician.

So far, unfortunately I have not seen improvements. I am wondering if the reason is that the light is not hitting the cochlea, which is the why I am interested in the post about adapting the rubber tips so the light beam is wider. The cochlea is very small, the size of a pea, and the beam of light is quite narrow. So I think it is likely that the light may be missing the cochlea. I have not yet tried adapting the rubber tips as suggested in that post.
Click to expand...

Hi, Lymebite. What you propose is very interesting and I wonder why Konftec's design engineers don't provide more efficient ear tips for their devices. It would be very interesting to hear whatever they have to say concerning this matter.

I'm sorry to hear that after such a long time you haven't seen any improvement of your condition, but I'm not surprised though. It doesn't work for every body, as you well know. You may want to try another protocol with two exposures a day and for a longer time, perhaps that would do the trick, who knows.

Once Wilden told me (if we want to trust him) that laser doesn't harm, too much of it stops the healing process, exactly like too little, but don't worry about the side effects because, according to him, there are no side effects. In my opinion, I don't think that we can get too much light with Konftec, if we compare it to the high power devices that wilden used in Germany to treat his patients, sometimes even a double treatment was given (1 hour x 2) morning and afternoon, if the condition was very severe. Go figure!

Regards.
 
#32
I've yet to see a single explanation as to why too much light therapy stops the healing. I'd love to hear why.
 
#34
Tom Cnyc said:
I've yet to see a single explanation as to why too much light therapy stops the healing. I'd love to hear why.
Click to expand...

Tom, I haven't an answer for your question. Wilden told me that giving too much laser doesn't harm, in case you over expose, but it can neutralise the ATP production though; exactly the same happens when giving too little. He also said that no body knows which the optimal laser dose is, so he uses high doses to achieve better results than with low. The worst the condition is, the higher is the dose needed, he said. He could even give daily double treatments for acute serious conditions.
How much is too much then? This could be answered if an standard optimal dose was established, but for this purpose a reliable and objective data is mandatory, but, who is going to pay all the research needed? Wilden (again) told me once that a large double blind clinical trial, which is what he is usually asked, due the lack of credibility of his therapy by the scientific community, is too expensive and unaffordable for him or any private therapist. Apparently, according to him, the multibillion profit hearing aids industry will boycott any funding concerning laser as a possible tool to fight tinnitus and hearing lose.
When you first visit Wilden, he makes an speech about laser and the fantastic results in nerve regeneration of the spinal cord, which is true, but this is misleading because the spinal cord has an easy accessibility for the laser beam, but is a different story when it comes to the cochlea and hearing nerves.
Meanwhile, and not until heavy serious research is done, the LLLT will be an endless story with defenders and detractors, all with a cause but non with an objective truth about such a controversial and yet little known therapy. Oblivion or investigation? Unfortunately, money has the key, as usual.
Regards.
 
#35
Jan64 said:
About the ear tip problem, you can buy via the Konftec site all kinds of ear tips. http://www.konftec.com/order/HTML/order-wr-2xx.htm
I just check whether light is delivered by using a piece of white paper. I point the laser at 3 centimeter distance and look at the size and shape of the image...
Click to expand...

Thank you for the link. Jan. The laser modules that I have are like the ones in the picture, and the ear-tips are WR-210-214 like. I've projected the laser beam on a white wall and I get a perfect round red dot, I don't see why we should cut the ear-tips, but in my case, as I explained, it's not possible even if I wanted to.
 

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#36
Hi, Jan.

I'm sorry, I was wrong about my Konftec laser, it isn't 808nm but 780nm. My friend told me it was 808nm, and I didn't check.
According to Konftec recommendations, I should buy the 808nm emLas to cover the full spectrum, which I didn't Know. I thought any of them would do, and that only the penetration power was different, depending on the module. I didn't know much about the home lasers as I didn't have any intention to use one, till I got mine as a present and then saw your post. Now I'm glad I've started to experiment with it, but I'm a bit confused.

This is my audiogram:
Right Ear.
Hz 125 250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000
Db 20 20 30 60 60 60 70
Left Ear.
Hz 125 250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000
Db 70 60 80 90 90 100 80

Severe tinnitus Left Ear
Hz 125 250 4000
Db 75 95 105

What do you thing, are extra 808nm modules necessary to enhance my 780nm unit?
I would appreciate your opinion.
Thanks.
 
#37
Anima said:
Hi, Jan.
I'm sorry, I was wrong about my Konftec laser, it isn't 808nm but 780nm. My friend told me it was 808nm, and I didn't check.
According to Konftec recommendations, I should buy the 808nm emLas to cover the full spectrum, which I didn't Know. I thought any of them would do, and that only the penetration power was different, depending on the module. I didn't know much about the home lasers as I didn't have any intention to use one, till I got mine as a present and then saw your post. Now I'm glad I've started to experiment with it, but I'm a bit confused.

This is my audiogram:
Right Ear.
Hz 125 250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000
Db 20 20 30 60 60 60 70
Left Ear.
Hz 125 250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000
Db 70 60 80 90 90 100 80

Severe tinnitus Left Ear
Hz 125 250 4000
Db 75 95 105

What do you thing, are extra 808nm modules necessary to enhance my 780nm unit?
I would appreciate your opinion.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply, I know there is a picture on the Konftec site with the message that the tinnitus pitch (Hz) dictates which wave length to choose. But I never saw any evidence for that. No research paper or what so ever. Maybe Dr. Wilden can say something about it.

Penetration of light in water (or blood) is best with the 808 nm followed by the 780 nm (on memory). I know that a laser therapist (Anne Harila from Norway of Sweden) suggest to use several wave length for maximum stimulation. Dr. Wilden is an advocate of 650 nm as the primary wave length. His home care system uses also 650.

When you have money in abundance you can buy several wave lenght probes, but in my opinion the difference will not be significant... I have 2 probes/diodes: 650 and 808 and only use the 808 nm...

What is your tinnitus pitch? Then we can see what Konftec advises.
 
#38
Hi Jan,

in general: Do you think that the 90mW of the Konftec Laser are enough "power" to hit/reach the Cochlea? Dr. Wilden uses 250mW on his device for home therapy. What's your opinion?
 
#39
Jan64 said:
Thank you for your reply, I know there is a picture on the Konftec site with the message that the tinnitus pitch (Hz) dictates which wave length to choose. But I never saw any evidence for that. No research paper or what so ever. Maybe Dr. Wilden can say something about it.

Penetration of light in water (or blood) is best with the 808 nm followed by the 780 nm (on memory). I know that a laser therapist (Anne Harila from Norway of Sweden) suggest to use several wave length for maximum stimulation. Dr. Wilden is an advocate of 650 nm as the primary wave length. His home care system uses also 650.

When you have money in abundance you can buy several wave lenght probes, but in my opinion the difference will not be significant... I have 2 probes/diodes: 650 and 808 and only use the 808 nm...

What is your tinnitus pitch? Then we can see what Konftec advises.
Click to expand...

that chart is kind of bullshit. reasonably its based on the penetration power of the more invisible wavelengths. the lower the pitch, the deeper in the cochlea the hair cells are. anything that can reach the low notes, can reach the high notes by this logic.

supposedly the closer to red light, the more healing it is, which is why they suggest lower wavelength for the higher pitches - but reasonably the hair cells won't care about the wavelength, they'll care about energy measured in joules. just use it for longer.

808 is used b/c the diodes are readily available thanks to DVD players and whatnot - not b/c its better. dont get caught up in this. 780 is absolutely fine.

I use the redlightman combo light. its 100 bucks and casts a beam wide enough that you can't miss. I have no idea if it works or if its just a tincture of time, but I am getting better.
 
#40
Noise_sucks said:
Hi Jan,
in general: Do you think that the 90mW of the Konftec Laser are enough "power" to hit/reach the Cochlea? Dr. Wilden uses 250mW on his device for home therapy. What's your opinion?
Click to expand...
Hi Christian, Dr.Wilden upgraded his home care device from 50 or 60 mW to 250 mW... That is great! When money is not a problem I would now prefer Dr. Wildens device over the Konftec 808 nm. The 90 mW definitely hits the cochlea but it will take more time to get a proper dose.
 
#41
Tom Cnyc said:
I use the redlightman combo light. its 100 bucks and casts a beam wide enough that you can't miss. I have no idea if it works or if its just a tincture of time, but I am getting better.
Click to expand...

Hello Tom,
that device is interesting indeed. But how do you deal with the wide beam of the light? At what distance to the ear do you hold the device? And what's your protocol - do you use it on a daily basis? Do you protect or cover your eyes while using?

Jan64 said:
Hi Christian, Dr.Wilden upgraded his home care device from 50 or 60 mW to 250 mW... That is great! When money is not a problem I would now prefer Dr. Wildens device over the Konftec 808 nm. The 90 mW definitely hits the cochlea but it will take more time to get a proper dose.
Click to expand...

Hello Jan,
so you would definitely recommend the 808nm Version? I emailed them and they came up with the following answer:

upload_2017-12-6_18-48-0.png
 
#42
Anima said:
Yes, Jan, temporary spikes happen, Wilden told me that this is quite normal at the beginning and they usually precede an amelioration of the condition. He also told me not to panic if new tones show up because they are only temporary and it's part of the healing process taking place. . I suppose he knows better, but new tones are always very scaring, aren't they? Also a good sign, according to him, is when a steady toned tinnitus starts fluctuating.

My Konftec device is a previous model to the current one, and has square shaped laser modules with reddish rubber ear-tips. It's quite uncomfortable, the design isn't good and makes it difficult to fit (and keep) the ear-tips inside the ear canal. No way I can experiment with what Lymebite suggests because, cutting the base, the ear tip wouldn't fit the module, and,cutting the top, it wouldn't fit the ear canal. I'll live it as it is.

Take care.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply, feel the same about spikes, they can be quite scary... But have also experienced when taking prednisone the T loudness temporary increases... and that is a sign 'something' happens...
I got the same model as you have, but then with the blue tips (WR-209)... Keeping the tip in the ear is quite problematic with the Konftec model...
 
#43
#45
Theoretically since the power is 20 watts even if it gets attenuated enough makes it to the cochlea. Thought I haven't measured this. You could do test this on a cadaver with a meter in the cochlea.
 
#47
Jim51042 said:
Theoretically since the power is 20 watts even if it gets attenuated enough makes it to the cochlea. Thought I haven't measured this. You could do test this on a cadaver with a meter in the cochlea.
Click to expand...
Is there a research paper in which is concluded that multi spectrum non-coherent light will be effective healing the cochlea? But this thread is not an efficacy threat, see:
Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Efficacy Debate and
DIY Low-Level Laser Therapy for Tinnitus on a Budget — LLLT Under 100,-
 
#48
Tom Cnyc said:
that chart is kind of bullshit. reasonably its based on the penetration power of the more invisible wavelengths. the lower the pitch, the deeper in the cochlea the hair cells are. anything that can reach the low notes, can reach the high notes by this logic.

supposedly the closer to red light, the more healing it is, which is why they suggest lower wavelength for the higher pitches - but reasonably the hair cells won't care about the wavelength, they'll care about energy measured in joules. just use it for longer.

808 is used b/c the diodes are readily available thanks to DVD players and whatnot - not b/c its better. dont get caught up in this. 780 is absolutely fine.

I use the redlightman combo light. its 100 bucks and casts a beam wide enough that you can't miss. I have no idea if it works or if its just a tincture of time, but I am getting better.
Click to expand...
Tom, Thanks for the information about 780 being fine. I know you have a lot of information concerning laser, so I'll take your advice.
 
#49
Jan, Thank you very much for the reply and your time. I'll go on with my 780, I believe that Tom is right and there is no need to spend money on extra devices. I think I've things clear now, sorry for so many questions.
Best regards.
 
#50
Noise_sucks said:
Hello Tom,
that device is interesting indeed. But how do you deal with the wide beam of the light? At what distance to the ear do you hold the device? And what's your protocol - do you use it on a daily basis? Do you protect or cover your eyes while using?
Click to expand...

Hey @Tom Cnyc - any chance for a quick statement on this? I ordered the redlightman combo-light.
Much appreciated!
 
#51
Jan64 said:
Is there a research paper in which is concluded that multi spectrum non-coherent light will be effective healing the cochlea? But this thread is not an efficacy threat, see:
Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Efficacy Debate and
DIY Low-Level Laser Therapy for Tinnitus on a Budget — LLLT Under 100,-
Click to expand...
Anima said:
Tom, Thanks for the information about 780 being fine. I know you have a lot of information concerning laser, so I'll take your advice.
Click to expand...

honestly man, I don't have a lot of information, and anyone telling you they do is lying. This is experimental and unlikely at best. Tinnitus is subjective, so this can't really ever be tested scientifically.
 
#53
Noise_sucks said:
Hello Tom,
Hello Jan,
so you would definitely recommend the 808nm Version? I emailed them and they came up with the following answer:

View attachment 14034
Click to expand...
Hi Christian,
I also saw that figure on their website. To my opinion it is not based on scientific research... But why not do what Konftec recommends... I do also not have scientific research backing my feeling that the 808 is the best... Yesterday I used the 660 nm. Actually I did not feel a difference...
 
#55
Noise_sucks said:
At what distance do you keep the lamp while using? And how often do you use it for how long?
Any information about this would be really helpful, thank you!
Click to expand...
Hi Christian, for your information I put my 660 nm probe against my hand. And the light goes through my hand. Not just a bit, but quite bright, light also goes through the bones. Just try that with a non-coherent light source like an LED lamp... I experimented with all kinds of light, making my own devices... read a lot research papers... I thing I learned: you need coherent light. You might try non-coherent, but why should you? There are no papers backing effectiveness of non-coherent light for healing the cochlea.
 
#56
As mentioned in the beginning: this is new thread... for people having tinnitus and are treating it with low level laser therapy. Key for me is (near) daily use of a laser. And this has to be easy... Very easy, in bed, during sleep... not having to keep the laser probe in your hand...

Above that it is neccessary that we support each other... lasering your ears almost every day can be hard... Is an idea that everybody who is 'in' reports every month about the progress. Is the T sound better, lower, softer,... has it changed... Who is in?

Format:

Status report LLLT
Name:
Device (brand, wavelength and power):
Lasering since:
Protocol (every day? Duration):
Effects:

For me:
Status report LLLT
Name: Jan64
Device (brand, wavelength and power): Konftec, 808 nm, 90 mW
Lasering since: started again after agravation on 15 August 2017
Protocol (every day? Duration): every day in bed before and during sleep, 45 minutes
Effects: loudness went down, more stable before the spike of last Saterday 10 December), now together with prednisone and pentioxifilline treating.
 
#57
Noise_sucks said:
At what distance do you keep the lamp while using? And how often do you use it for how long?
Any information about this would be really helpful, thank you!
Click to expand...
I hold it to my head, changing the positioning. I use it when I think of it. Sometimes three days in a row for 20 mins, sometimes once a week.

On average 3x a week I guess.
 
#58
Hi, My name is Wim and have been suffering from tinnitus when I was 16 years old. Dont know the cause... But Now i'm 32 years old and the last three years its getting worse, the sound in my ears is disturbing me now in my sleep. I wake up from the sound and I can say that I almost never sleep deep anymore. Almost no dreams anymore while sleeping. Knowing that before I had a lot of dreams when I slept. Hearing loss is also severe on my left ear where I have the ringing sound. So time for a solution, in specialized center in Belgium they just told me that they cant help me. Nothing to do about it... accept it... Ok, that was not the answer I wanted. So now on 8 januari I have a 2 Weeks ( 10 sessions) treatment with Laser therapy in Germany. Dr Kaiser will be given it. I will pay 2200 euro but I need to find some kind of relief, I will be happy even when the sound in my ear will be softer. So I can sleep again normal...

I would wanna know if anybody knows this doctor and any good results with this therapy?

Thank you all!! Regards

Wim
 
#59
Hi Wim, First: before trying lasertherapy you have to know whether the cause of your tinnitus is in the cochlea. E.g. noise induced. A good ENT can assess that.
Amon Kaiser is the son of dr. Wilden. I once have phoned with dr Wilden, and pondered/considered getting treatment in Bad Füssing. But at that time it was to expensive for me and choosed to buy a laser device myself so I could treat myself for a long time at low costs. Your T is already quite 'old' so the treating time will be also quite long, so do not expect big results after 10 sessions, so you actually also need a home system... It is also a money matter... When you do have lots of money go to Kaiser or his father...His father has a practice on Ibiza... so you can combine therapy with a bit of a holiday...
 
#60
Tom Cnyc said:
I've yet to see a single explanation as to why too much light therapy stops the healing. I'd love to hear why.
Click to expand...
In another thread @attheedgeofscience says:
Essentially you can approach therapy dosage in a number of ways:

1) Increase the dosage by increasing the length of the therapy, but keeping the strength of the medicine constant, or
2) Increase the dosage by increasing the strength of the medicine, but keeping the length of the therapy constant, or
3) Deliver the same dosage split across several therapies instead of all-in-one-go, or
4) Deliver the same dosage using different strengths of medicine - and varying the length of therapy accordingly.

At some point the increase in dosage becomes detrimental - and it is therefore important to consider what part of the curve the treatment is at.

For LLLT the dosage is calculated as: Energy (J)=Power (W)×Time (s)

1563-b42c3ef53219c12d645310255eeb418b.jpg


The diagram above is one specific instance of the Arndt-Schulz curve specific for LLLT (and not the generalized curve for other medicine).
 

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