Lying Doctors

[deanalewis]

Hey Folks,

Is it just me or does it feel like the Doctors just try to fob you off. I went down to my Doctor 3 weeks ago just one day after hearing the ringing in my ear and worried that I could have tinnitus.

He looked in my ears and said they look fine but there was 'Some' wax and prescribed me oil to remove it - I also told him my ears 'FEEL FULL'

I have been over the last few weeks watching youtube videos and every person who appears to have got perminant tinnitus seemed to experience a fullness in their ears.

Why the heck does the doctor not cut the crap - there is obviously a common link to perminant tinnitus and the fullness that occurs at the same time why fob me off with an execuse of 'It will get better'.

At the time he even joked saying 'I would not worry about it - I have used many power tools in my day without protection and I've never got tinnitus - Dont worry about it'.

I made and appointment to go back in 2 weeks after seeing if anything settled down this time when I went back to the Doctor his attitude was different - It was basically - Your gonna have to live with it.

I was hoping he would refer me to the ENT I am so bloody angry with Doctors not giving a shit.

 

[dan]

They dont give a shit because they cant do jack shit about it.
I dont appreciate their dismissive attitude though, like its no big deal...It IS a big deal and it should be taken seriously to achieve awareness.

 

[linearb]

If there's a link between fullness and tinnitus, it's not well understood. And, many people have fullness without tinnitus, and vice versa.

I don't think your doctor is willfully lying to you, I think that there is just a limit to how much doctors know.

I think that part of the problem is that culturally, we sort of elevate doctors to being gods, and then expect them to know everything. They don't. Doctors are more like mechanics tasked with trying to maintain an incredibly complex machine that no one fully understands.

I'm sorry you had such a frustrating experience, though. I know how much that sucks.

 

[walkthroughwalls]

Of course there's a limit to what a doctor can know, but some rather make something up then tell you that they (or they, representing medicine) don't know. It's strange how sometimes, once something is beyond their knowledge, they'll revert back to being a random person on the street. Giving you an answer that would be frowned upon in the world of medicine/science (for example, that power drill-story).

That being said, I don't think it's because they don't care or have bad intentions. They're probably mean well, but aren't that self-critical. At least it's usually easy to separate the truths from the nonsense.
I do think a referral to an ENT would be justified, though.

 

[soundmachine]

Yea...that sort of happened to me. I did not get corticosteroids when I had full blast T and SSNHL. The dip-shit doctor just told me it was stress and refused to refer me to an ENT. One month later when I knew what it was and forcefully got to an ENT, it was too late for steroids. Game over.

Doctors should never be elevated to levels of knowledge like PhD scientists. A PhD goes to school for 8 years and has to do research work that is original and peer reviewed. If their thesis does not pass, no PhD. MDs, however, go to 4 years of medical school and take multiple choice tests and pass certifying exams that are also multiple choice (boards). The only challenging thing about being a MD is the residency that is long and full of procedures.

Yet, the PhD gets peanuts for pay and the MD gets 5x the salary and does diddly squat for medical science. So asking a MD about the details of disease is like having a conversation with a 5 year old.

I'm sorry you had this experience, expect more of the same from ignorant MDs. And like others have said, even PhD researchers know so little about the human body. If I had to generalize the state of medicine, I would say it is anything but "modern". It is still in the dark ages. In fact, many of our treatments and drugs go back 50 or more years!. Case in point...go to an ENT...what do they do??? An audiology test (gee how old is that).

Welcome to our would of ignorance in medicine ...a world where YOU are now the doctor.

 

[MattK]

For the record, I never experienced fullness in conjunction with getting tinnitus. Mine seems to have come almost out of nowhere.

With that said, your doc doesn't sound like a liar. He sounds like the rest of the docs who simply don't know what to do.

And quite honestly, if you had seen an ENT, there is a high chance that the experience would've been quite similar. The medical field just simply does not have an effective treatment for tinnitus.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I am so bloody angry with Doctors not giving a shit.

When I hire an electrician who doesn't seem to care, I fire that electrician and hire one who does - because the wiring in my house is very important to me.

And when I hire a doctor who doesn't seem to care, I fire that doctor and hire one who does - because the wiring in my body is even more important to me than the wiring in my house.

 

[linearb]

As Voltaire said in the 18th century,
"Doctors put drugs of which they know little into bodies of which they know less for diseases of which they know nothing at all."

I'd say things have improved marginally in 250 years...

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I'd say things have improved marginally in 250 years...

Tell that to my wife, who would be dead today were it not for that "marginal" improvement.

 

[linearb]

Tell that to my wife, who would be dead today were it not for that "marginal" improvement.

I was born very, very premature. So, 50 or 100 years ago, no chance at all of survival.

That slightly tempers my appreciation of the Voltaire quote, but not to a dramatic degree. No offense intended to you by any means, but my overall experiences with doctors, especially psychiatrists, is "alchemy, snake oil, and glorified phrenology".

I have definitely found many doctors who buck that trend... At great personal expense, and time investment.

 

[Asian]

An ENT doc doesn't exist. They are just NT docs . modern medicine still doesn't have real docs to treat ear conditions. Heck they can't even diagnose the problem with our ears most of the time and prescribe antibiotics and steroids to every other person

 

[snow86]

No offense intended to you by any means, but my overall experiences with doctors, especially psychiatrists, is "alchemy, snake oil, and glorified phrenology".

oh yeah...giving out drugs like it's candy. At least thats what they're good for in Germany. Venlafaxin turned my already killer T into a multiple monster. But maybe I shoud've googled more before taking it.But then again it should be his job looking up sideeffects before giving people such toxic sh**, especially to tinnitus patients.

When I was still on this drug, I was sent to a hospital for 7 days (stationary, psychology department) and when I was barely alive and this drug did nothing for me(no help against depression) and my T was exploding, the chief psychiatrist ordered me to take the double dosage of this. Yeah great work.
Weeks after this I changed the psychiatrist (it's extremly hard to find one that accepts new patients, you have to wait months) and demanded other drug until I found one that works better and doesn't seem to worsen the T.
I've seen 3 psychiatrists so far, 2 of them were older than 65 and you could really notice that they dont give a flying **** about your situation but they still want to make better salary (and it's huge here) than what you make on retirement.

So my experience with the new extreme T (I had a tonal T before this) :
extreme Tinnitus after the Dentist, he took too long to remove a wisdom tooth, probably overestimated his skill or options, shouldve refered me to a dental surgeon) then I get a real mean depression out of this and go to the psychiatrist and he gives me bad drugs like written above, which made my T explode and mutate into several alternating engine sounds.

I prefer lying doctors over incompetent ones.
Wish I would have never gone to the Psychiatrist or took any drugs.
Because a year ago I was like "omg, this is so extreme I cant live with this", now more than a year later I wish I could at least go back to that T when it started.

and ENTs? Not worth talking about. Even at the renowned Berlin Tinnitus Zentrum, after the docs do a checkup, you'll get to hear "you will have to live with this". But thats ok, can't blame them. But then again, they're making some good money. A week of ambulant "therapy" costs 2000€...and that creates an illusion that they actually can do something.

(this is not a general rant against doctors, I met some excellent doctors in other fields of medicine. There are indeed some great people. But some departments seem to have more black sheep than the others.)

 

[deanalewis]

My problem is this same doctor laughed it off when I thought I breathed in too much silica dust which can cause lung failure again got a story of how he's been exposed I suppose if I had cancer he would fob it off.

I had a lump at the base of my spine and I told him about it and he said it will go down don't worry 3 years later I needed surgery and still I have the problem as remedial surgery was ineffective yet if my doctor gave me antibiotics at the time I would have been cured.

I'm gonna see an ENT and if they sat its too late for steroids I'm going to sue for malpractice

 

[MattK]

An ENT doc doesn't exist. They are just NT docs . modern medicine still doesn't have real docs to treat ear conditions. Heck they can't even diagnose the problem with our ears most of the time and prescribe antibiotics and steroids to every other person

So despite everything ENTs do for ears that help people, they should be down graded to simply NTs because they can't fix everything? And to top it off, that problem, tinnitus, though manifests itself in the ears for most people, may actually be a brain issue, not an ear one.

 

[deanalewis]

Just feels like they dont care and the older ones are the worst as I'm just cattle to them. I found a younger doctor far more helpful and they admit they dont know.

Older doctors dont care I know more about T than my doctor yet he is the gatekeeper to treatment like what the hell.

There are genuine doctors but I agree medical science is only fractionally better than 150 years ago

 

[deanalewis]

So despite everything ENTs do for ears that help people, they should be down graded to simply NTs because they can't fix everything? And to top it off, that problem, tinnitus, though manifests itself in the ears for most people, may actually be a brain issue, not an ear one.

Where is the proof its not the ears? If they can't fix the tiny hairs how can they further deduce that its the brain.

Sounds like passing the buck!

My own theory is that if there bent hairs or dead they still send a signal but since its skewed that's all the brain hears. Bit like mic feedback.

Heck I've even resorted to buying melatonin off the internet as they don't sell it in the uk.... They used to sell it in health food shops but then red listed it

 

[Danny Boy]

Hey Folks,

Is it just me or does it feel like the Doctors just try to fob you off. I went down to my Doctor 3 weeks ago just one day after hearing the ringing in my ear and worried that I could have tinnitus.

He looked in my ears and said they look fine but there was 'Some' wax and prescribed me oil to remove it - I also told him my ears 'FEEL FULL'

I have been over the last few weeks watching youtube videos and every person who appears to have got perminant tinnitus seemed to experience a fullness in their ears.

Why the heck does the doctor not cut the crap - there is obviously a common link to perminant tinnitus and the fullness that occurs at the same time why fob me off with an execuse of 'It will get better'.

At the time he even joked saying 'I would not worry about it - I have used many power tools in my day without protection and I've never got tinnitus - Dont worry about it'.

I made and appointment to go back in 2 weeks after seeing if anything settled down this time when I went back to the Doctor his attitude was different - It was basically - Your gonna have to live with it.

I was hoping he would refer me to the ENT I am so bloody angry with Doctors not giving a shit.

If doctors can't prescribe drugs for it, they don't know about it. If they can prescribe drugs they know about it. Also have you seen an ENT about the fullness? I haven't had this fullness, I had fluid behind my ear which subsided but no fullness.

 

[awbw8]

I think we should be a little gentler on doctors in general. Doctors are just people, and there are people who are good at their jobs and bad at their jobs, or good and bad at certain aspects of their jobs. All doctors aren't going to do a good job and you are the customer. If your provider sucks, you have to go find a new provider - because there are excellent providers out there.

When I got T, I went to two ENTs, one neurotologist, two audiologists, one general physician, one psychologist and one psychiatrist. Woof. One was quite young and probably hadn't seen anyone with tinnitus that didn't go away, the rest, I think, did all they could, even though nothing felt like enough at the time. But, the truth is, there's not that much an MD can do for T in most circumstances, and therefore I don't think they learn much about it, but that doesn't necessarily make them bad doctors or liars. They're learning just as we all are and that includes learning compassion and good bedside manner.

If you want to help future T patients, you might consider writing a polite, well-worded, open and honest letter to your former doctors letting them know how their treatment or lack-there-of affected you. You might include a list of resources you eventually found (TT!), or list other doctors who did help you and what they said or did. Perhaps it will do nothing, but perhaps the next time a patient with T walks into their office they'll think of you and they'll think twice and have something to say, or someone to send them to other than, "Der, I dunno. Sorry 'bout it."

Rather than lamenting their failures, we can (politely - so as to have our message herd and not pushed off in offense) help to educate them as fellow humans and hopefully make things a little better for the next person with T who walks through the door.

 

[Danny Boy]

Where is the proof its not the ears? If they can't fix the tiny hairs how can they further deduce that its the brain.

Sounds like passing the buck!

My own theory is that if there bent hairs or dead they still send a signal but since its skewed that's all the brain hears. Bit like mic feedback.

Heck I've even resorted to buying melatonin off the internet as they don't sell it in the uk.... They used to sell it in health food shops but then red listed it

There are deaf people with nothing in there ears, but a skin-graft but still have tinnitus. So he has no hair cells anymore, yet has tinnitus...So fixing the hair cells may not treat tinnitus...This is why targeting the brain is important.

 

[MattK]

Where is the proof its not the ears? If they can't fix the tiny hairs how can they further deduce that its the brain.

Sounds like passing the buck!

My own theory is that if there bent hairs or dead they still send a signal but since its skewed that's all the brain hears. Bit like mic feedback.

Heck I've even resorted to buying melatonin off the internet as they don't sell it in the uk.... They used to sell it in health food shops but then red listed it

I said it MAY not be in the ears. And just a cursory reading of tinnitus literature can easily explain it for you.

And there are people who've had their auditory nerves surgically cut and still had tinnitus.

I have a good friend who's deaf in one ear but he has loud tinnitus in that ear. So where do you think the problem must be coming from if not the auditory cortex, which is part of the brain?

 

[linearb]

Where is the proof its not the ears? If they can't fix the tiny hairs how can they further deduce that its the brain.

The proof is that everyone over the age of 30 in the industrialized world has hearing loss, and 80% of them do not have tinnitus -- as well as the fact that multiple fMRI imaging studies have shown reliable brain differences in tinnitus patients vs control subjects, in the area of the right anterior insula, thalamus and amygdala. How much more proof do you need?

My own theory is that if there bent hairs or dead they still send a signal but since its skewed that's all the brain hears. Bit like mic feedback.

Yes, this is what happens, more or less - the nerve that connects to the dead hair cells fires erratically. However, the nervous system is generating all kinds of abberant data all the time, and the thalamus does a bang-up job of suppressing those impulses before they become conscious percepts. Even in people with severe tinnitus, that mechanism is still largely intact, or else you'd be bombarded with constant irrelevant sensory data all the time.

Heck I've even resorted to buying melatonin off the internet as they don't sell it in the uk.... They used to sell it in health food shops but then red listed it

Check out Tart Cherry juice, it is a natural source of melatonin and several studies have shown improved sleep patterns following regular consumption.

It probably shouldn't be sold as openly as it is in the US; it's not an 'herbal supplement', it's a straight-up drug that's intimately connected to a wide variety of homeostatic functions.

oh yeah...giving out drugs like it's candy. At least thats what they're good for in Germany. Venlafaxin turned my already killer T into a multiple monster. But maybe I shoud've googled more before taking it.But then again it should be his job looking up sideeffects before giving people such toxic sh**, especially to tinnitus patients.

Without going into too much boring history, my summary is that I was put on amphetamines when I was about 12, and then put on a ton of other shit over the next 5 years to "treat" problems that probably had more to do with the amphetamines than they did with any "underlaying disorder". It wasn't until I was in my 20s that I decided I probably didn't really have any problems other than "too many drugs over too many years" and decided to get myself off all that crap -- which took years to accomplish, but was probably the most useful thing I've ever done for my general health. So, of course, after all of that I am deeply skeptical of so-called prescribing MDs, and can you blame me? I was basically experimented on by a hugely profitable multinational drug-marketing machine.

(this is not a general rant against doctors, I met some excellent doctors in other fields of medicine. There are indeed some great people. But some departments seem to have more black sheep than the others.)

I absolutely agree. What pains me is that the only reason I've been able to find and work with good doctors is that I'm relatively affluent and good at navigating complex beuracratic systems. The doctor I ended up working with to get off the last drug I was on -- who, I might add, was the only psychiatrist who came out and said "you do not have a personality disorder, you have iatrogenic problems from too many drugs, and you can get off all that shit and be perfectly fine" -- doesn't accept insurance and I had to spend thousands out of pocket (which I got some partial reimbursement for later, after much paperwork).

If you are poor in this country, and you have any functional problems at all, you will get loaded up on anti-depressants and benzodiazepines. When you begin to manifest problems as a result, you will be loaded up on anti-psychotics. If you refuse, you may lose whatever benefits you are collecting, and in extreme cases people are forcibly institutionalized or have their children taken away from them.

Are there good doctors? Absolutely! Do most doctors genuinely want to help people? I would say yes, they do -- but the tools they have to do so, are broken parts of a broken machine that doesn't really care about people, because it's just one aspect of the same for-profit automation that rules all wellness in the name of progress and forward thinking.

Thankfully, by now, there is a nascent counterculture forming around the edges of all of this. Many doctors, especially in the mental health field, are realizing how completely fucked everything is. Various non-profits and advocacy groups are forming networks and alliances. So, I remain and optimist, and I think that these things are changing, and can improve.

 

[linearb]

...the downside is that many so called "alternative doctors", in addition to being skeptical of psychiatric drugs and general insurance billing practices, are also into very, very unscientific ideas. We need evidence-based medicine... but when the evidence of the efficiency or safety of a drug or treatment comes solely from the research done by the companies trying to sell it, as is the case of 98% of drug research done in the US, buyer beware.

 

[MattK]

@awbw8 i agree. The problem is that when we go to a doctor for tinnitus, we're expecting him to rid us of something that no one in the world knows how to do. So the doc is left with virtually no options rather than tell us the harsh truth about living with it.

It sucks, but there's really nothing else. This of course leaves the patient feeling neglected.

 

[linearb]

@awbw8 i agree. The problem is that when we go to a doctor for tinnitus, we're expecting him to rid us of something that no one in the world knows how to do. So the doc is left with virtually no options rather than tell us the harsh truth about living with it.

I basically agree, but I think messaging is huge. When you say to someone who is in a state of severe anxiety over this "you'll have to learn to live with it", I think what they hear is often "the terrible feelings you feel right now are something you're now stuck with, so, deal with it". It seems like doctors need to get a lot better at saying "this is a very common problem, and it's very normal to feel distress and even panic about it. However, even for people for whom this does become a chronic issue, the vast majority of them see a significant improvement in their mood, and most people eventually reach a place where they are not bothered by the sound most of the time, and may not even be consciously aware of it. It may take you a little while to calm down, and I am sorry that this happened and that you have to deal with it, but this should in no way prevent you from having a happy and normal life".

 

[MattK]

I basically agree, but I think messaging is huge. When you say to someone who is in a state of severe anxiety over this "you'll have to learn to live with it", I think what they hear is often "the terrible feelings you feel right now are something you're now stuck with, so, deal with it". It seems like doctors need to get a lot better at saying "this is a very common problem, and it's very normal to feel distress and even panic about it. However, even for people for whom this does become a chronic issue, the vast majority of them see a significant improvement in their mood, and most people eventually reach a place where they are not bothered by the sound most of the time, and may not even be consciously aware of it. It may take you a little while to calm down, and I am sorry that this happened and that you have to deal with it, but this should in no way prevent you from having a happy and normal life".

That'd definitely help more than what they generally do. But at the height of my anxiety, anything other than, "this is a curable condition and you'll be back to normal in a week" would've still had similar results. Basically, no matter how it is said, the bottom line is nothing can be done.

Basically as of now I view doctors as there to make sure it's not treatable and to make sure it's not caused by something serious. After that, it's time to consider habituation strategies.

 

[Craggy 65]

I would refer people with Tinnitus to this forum before going to the doctor.

 

[TheGagagirl1234]

I don't think they are lying nor do they say that to be rude but simply because there really isn't a cure for T yet, and they don't know what to say and do. I think they rather should say something like: "We are really sorry that you're struggling with tinnitus but we can't do anything because there is no cure for it yet. But people who have tinnitus still live a normal life with it"
- That sounds much better, doesn't it? It will give patients hope

 

[soundmachine]

I was born very, very premature. So, 50 or 100 years ago, no chance at all of survival.

That slightly tempers my appreciation of the Voltaire quote, but not to a dramatic degree. No offense intended to you by any means, but my overall experiences with doctors, especially psychiatrists, is "alchemy, snake oil, and glorified phrenology".

I have definitely found many doctors who buck that trend... At great personal expense, and time investment.

LOL....I said the exact..almost verbatim thing after seeing one. They know of about 5 neurotransmitters in the brain and macro regions of the brain...a few neuroreceptors...and even fewer medications. They don't even understand tolerance over time with ANY drug (liver...upregulation..downregulation of receptors) and loss of efficacy (so they just up the dose).
Nevermind the added intensity of side effects...like...anxiety..OCD, etc induced by the very drugs that are supposed to "treat" you. ... Real clowns.

There have been some life saving procedures...and of course antibiotics that have saved many lives. But ...as for cures and as for "quality of life" forget it. That would actually require deep knowledge of cells, genetics... and the timing and interaction of 1000s of communicating chemicals and the receptors. Statistics on life expectancy (which keep getting touted as a measure of how medicine improves us) does not record "quality of life". You could be blind, deaf, and a paraplegic but if you are alive...that's one for the gipper. So the advancement of medicine is always measured by life expectancy. Hey, you can live in pure hell for many more years....yea!!! We are 1 step ahead of blood-letting and amputations for leg wounds...but only incrementally better in the past 150 years.

 

[Craggy 65]

As a patient you get 10 mins.of a doctors time.How long does it take to say"you have tinnitus,and there is no cure".The remainder of your consultation should be how you can manage it.

 

[soundmachine]

As a patient you get 10 mins.of a doctors time.How long does it take to say"you have tinnitus,and there is no cure".The remainder of your consultation should be how you can manage it.

Oh...that's so they can collect $250 for the consultation to tell you that there is no cure. They speed away in a nice Mercedes to the golf course. You go home $250 poorer to the serenading sound of a bad mariachi band. That's what I love about the medical profession...tons of $$$$$ even if they deliver nada. There's only one profession I know where you get paid to do nothing effective...politics. Any other job...if you did not solve the issue, you'd be fired, demoted, or not paid.