MDMA (a Component of Ecstacy) Potential for the Treatment of Tinnitus

[linearb]

If we're basing the "MDPEA might be good" entirely on one comment from Shulgin that it made his tinnitus go away -- that's not reasonable, because Shulgin said several times that all of the strong 5-HT2 agonists would make his tinnitus go away, and that was often the first sign he got that he was about to start tripping.

I've taken MDMA since I've had tinnitus. It definitely makes it go away completely for the duration of action of the drug. Then the ringing is usually a bit worse for the next several days. I think that lower than usual serotonin can result in worse ringing, and that having the huge serotonin flood that MDMA gives you temporarily makes the ringing get better.

If someone is stuck in a state of severe adverse reaction to T, I can imagine that for some people, taking MDMA might help them overcome their reaction. I can't imagine that taking any amount of MDMA is ever going to have a permanent impact on volume (unless you take enough of it to severely damage yourself, in which case I'd expect the ringing to get worse....)

Sorry to be a bit of a naysayer, but I have a lot of knowledge of and direct experience with MDMA, and have spent the past several years learning a lot about tinnitus. I just can't imagine any possible way that MDMA would have a permanent and useful effect, outside of potential changes in coping mechanisms.

So, if it's just a temporary reduction in the symptom -- so what? Many people report the same thing with benzos, and just like with benzos this is not a practical treatment because the risks of regular/long-term use are a lot worse than tinnitus. Let's not kid ourselves about MDMA being super safe and amazing; the risk profile has certainly been overplayed in the media, but I think at best it's "relatively safe for healthy adults to use occasionally". If you use it with any regularity you start to get long-term reductions in serotonin levels, and if you manage to keep using MDMA while already in a state of significant serotonin depletion, the drug's mechanism of action will cause dopamine to start binding at serotonin sites, which is dangerous (neurotoxic, causes long term or permanent changes to 5-HT transporter receptor shape which makes it not work as well for serotonin).

 

[Steve]

If we're basing the "MDPEA might be good" entirely on one comment from Shulgin that it made his tinnitus go away -- that's not reasonable, because Shulgin said several times that all of the strong 5-HT2 agonists would make his tinnitus go away, and that was often the first sign he got that he was about to start tripping.

Would you be able to link to some references? Am interested to see the notes on it. The thing with MDPEA is that it is non-psychoactive and non-scheduled, so it could be a gateway to something even if not useful in its current form. We would need to understand the long term effects but that would be part of proper analysis and trials.

If someone is stuck in a state of severe adverse reaction to T, I can imagine that for some people, taking MDMA might help them overcome their reaction. I can't imagine that taking any amount of MDMA is ever going to have a permanent impact on volume (unless you take enough of it to severely damage yourself, in which case I'd expect the ringing to get worse....)

Imagine people in the early stages, where that reaction is so incredibly important, even later down the line the reaction is a huge thing. The current studies with psychological elements (PTSD) have referenced it saving up to 3 months of therapy time. If we could harness it and use in the same context to control the initial reaction, in tandem with a psychological intervention, in many cases it could be a huge thing for patients. The question is how to do that. Benzos are dirty, horrible to come off and dull the senses; the default drugs, I would always advise to avoid. MDMA however opens the senses, it could be administered less frequently, in therapy sessions, and have a much greater impact.

Of course, you would only want to administer it to the patients who are prone to the reactions that send them into a psychological spiral, so you would need to vet people properly. It is highly unlikely to ever happen however, the "war on drugs" narrative pretty much prevents it before it can start.

 

[linearb]

Would you be able to link to some references? Am interested to see the notes on it. The thing with MDPEA is that it is non-psychoactive and non-scheduled, so it could be a gateway to something even if not useful in its current form. We would need to understand the long term effects but that would be part of proper analysis and trials.

It may be apocryphal, because I can't find a primary source -- just lots of bluelighters claiming that Shulgin said psychedelics would reduce his tinnitus at onset.

For me I think the effect on my tinnitus from MDMA is entirely a result of the serotonin flood, so I doubt if MDPEA would do anything at all. But, this stuff is likely to get scheduled at some point -- it's not really "inactive", it just gets destroyed by MAO really quickly. That's also true of DMT and some other drugs which are, none the less, scheduled -- and if MDPEA was really easily available, then it would still be very easy to abuse, because of the large number of naturally occurring MAO inhibitors. Smoke a little syrian rue, then eat your MDPEA and roll hard. That sounds crazy to a normal person, but I would be amazed if it hasn't already been tried several times by intrepid hardheads.

 

[nills]

Took the slightest amount of mdma today, maybe 20 mg (125 is adult dosage) ... also 5mg Ketamine .. .(40mg is sort of adult dosage) ... T is significantly low at the moment ... 10 hours after injestion.

Did it pure as a scientific test. Was in normal noise environment in the city and talking with people so could n`t test the effect on T when the substance was acting on the brain. Noticed a minimal change in perception but the dosage was so low it can be neglected.

So it does something even in these low amounts.

 

[MarioT]

Took the slightest amount of mdma today, maybe 20 mg (125 is adult dosage) ... also 5mg Ketamine .. .(40mg is sort of adult dosage) ... T is significantly low at the moment ... 10 hours after injestion.

Did it pure as a scientific test. Was in normal noise environment in the city and talking with people so could n`t test the effect on T when the substance was acting on the brain. Noticed a minimal change in perception but the dosage was so low it can be neglected.

So it does something even in these low amounts.

Interesting, but can you really distinguish between tinnitus loudness and tinnitus perception/awareness? If so, how do you do it?

 

[Steve]

Interesting, but can you really distinguish between tinnitus loudness and tinnitus perception/awareness? If so, how do you do it?

Excellent question, was just thinking along the same lines. Did you forget about it or did you actively notice a volume reduction?

Also, are you a regular enough user so that the minimal effects are nothing to you but may be a lot more for somebody who has never had it? I wonder if the dose would be able to be reduced in this case and have the same effect or if it is dependant on the actual dosage size.

 

[Stink]

related
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...stasy-ketamine-and-crystal-meth-10098612.html

 

[nills]

Interesting, but can you really distinguish between tinnitus loudness and tinnitus perception/awareness? If so, how do you do it?

It is a very good question; I feel Tinnitus and `awareness` go hand in hand ... If my awarenss is not aware of Tinnitus - than it appears less loud ... so T loudness is lower ... if my awareness can shut out my T I consider myself cured ... just like my awareness shuts out the sound of my heart pumping and bloodrushing through my brain. All us T patients want is to not hear the noise .. it is not a dangerous disease for the body, it is only doangerous for the mind and for our state of perception or consciousness of our Self and the world ... erase T from our coniousness = cure.

So If we can interrupt the hyperactive signal form being processed it equals the same as eliminating the hyperactivity itself. That being said, I think conciousness envelops the entire brain and is not seated in a specific region or seat of the brain. Whatever happens in the brain will be processed by conciousness .. .but I don`t think scientists have cracked this nutt yet ... they tried to do it when researching DMT. there is a documentary on it. DMT the god molecule.

Excellent question, was just thinking along the same lines. Did you forget about it or did you actively notice a volume reduction?

Also, are you a regular enough user so that the minimal effects are nothing to you but may be a lot more for somebody who has never had it? I wonder if the dose would be able to be reduced in this case and have the same effect or if it is dependant on the actual dosage size.

I`m not a regular user. Last time I tried it was 8 months ago ... the amounts I took are very safe for anyone .. even a child would be safe although they would notice it for sure. I have had my share of altered states of coniousness so i`m very relaxed when perception shifts ... and i`m also very aware of the slightest shifts ... this was very mild in perception, yet very significant in T awareness or loudness ... it is still there but very less intrusive. Mdma boosts overall wellbeing and sense of joy, - even this little amount I took flipped the coin for me although I did not experience the life changing insights that come from a full dose (and the complete silence I experience on a full dose of mdma - can`t speak of ketamine, haven`t tried that yet in full dose).

 

[MarioT]

It is a very good question; I feel Tinnitus and `awareness` go hand in hand ... If my awarenss is not aware of Tinnitus - than it appears less loud ... so T loudness is lower ... if my awareness can shut out my T I consider myself cured ... just like my awareness shuts out the sound of my heart pumping and bloodrushing through my brain. All us T patients want is to not hear the noise .. it is not a dangerous disease for the body, it is only doangerous for the mind and for our state of perception or consciousness of our Self and the world ... erase T from our coniousness = cure.

So If we can interrupt the hyperactive signal form being processed it equals the same as eliminating the hyperactivity itself.

Well, I agree and I disagree with your comment.. of course tinnitus has to do a lot with perception but my actual signal amplitude/loudness of it is also very dynamic. For example, usually on a "good" day before I go to sleep I use some white noise for masking which I leave on during the night. While the masking noise is almost sufficient for covering my T before I fall asleep it is not anymore when I wake up the next morning.

If the only contribution of taking ecstasy is to feel high and do not care as much about T then cool!! But what interests me is whether it actually has some measurable effect that inhibits the signal itself!

 

[nills]

@MarioT ... I don`t know what happens exactly .. but when I was on a full dose of mdma it was pure silence ... pure beautiful blissful all encompassing silence ...

 

[JeffDamsko]

@MarioT ... I don`t know what happens exactly .. but when I was on a full dose of mdma it was pure silence ... pure beautiful blissful all encompassing silence ...

Same here. Will try smaller dose also

 

[Carloflogical]

Well all this reading about MDMA is quite exciting.
I definitely think there is something in it for it to be researched in 2 different countries .

I'm going to try it myself in a few weeks and will let you all know the outcome.
The worst that can happen is I have a good night and my T is still there in the morning

 

[linearb]

The worst that can happen is I have a good night and my T is still there in the morning

There are anecdotal reports of permanent or long term spikes in T from MDMA usage. Be careful.

It eliminates my ringing entirely while I'm on the drug, but it comes right back and the day or two after may be louder than usual.

 

[Stink]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/non-profit-produced-mdma-ecstasy-psychedelics--2

 

[Steve]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/non-profit-produced-mdma-ecstasy-psychedelics--2

That's interesting. Wonder if it will ever get off the ground with the current philosophy?

It's already being done in a clinical setting in the US by these people http://www.maps.org

 

[Christian78]

can this damage brain hearing cause ototoxicity (i will buy it if it is ok)

 

[dboy]

can this damage brain hearing cause ototoxicity (i will buy it if it is ok)

I don't believe it is ototoxic, but repeated use can affect serotonin levels, which might be bad for your tinnitus or perhaps lead to depression. I'd personally do lots of research and careful thinking before taking it nowadays.

 

[Steve]

I read an interesting article from Mixmag yesterday, something to think about if you do decide to try it. Difficult to know what you will actually get.

http://mixmag.net/words/features/ecstasy-2015

 

[DebInAustralia]

As I was perusing another forum, I noticed a post from a girl in NZ who is participating in the MDMA trials at the University of New Zealand. I will invite her to play here so we can stay updated if anyone is interested? The trials are set to start in April.

 

[thesaint]

please do so

 

[Craig in Cali]

I just read some about it. Would love to know what happens. Is this aimed at some temporary treatment with hopeful lasting results, or do you need to roll all day long

 

[ruben ruiz]

Its not here yet. Be careful to end up worse for a few hours of better will not get us there.

 

[nills]

I just read some about it. Would love to know what happens. Is this aimed at some temporary treatment with hopeful lasting results, or do you need to roll all day long

you can`t roll all day long! imagine being high on it constantly ... it will mess your serotonin levels up so bad you start hallucinating purple elephants. Although I do know for a fact it does something positive to the experience of tinnitus, I doubt MDMA will ever be the molecule for a cure. It just shows how important serotonin is for us, unfortunately it is not something that has infinite supply in the brain. It depletes quickly and takes time to get back up. And it is so important to the whole emotional experience of being human and being happy.

 

[Errol]

Hi guys, I've got T in my right ear for six months after sudden deafness. I've tried mdma past weekend and my T was gone for the time the mdma worked. After that the T seemed more manageable, almost less loud than before. I don't think it can be turned in some sort of Medicine because of the many side effects it has, even in small doses. I do however, see that T treatment like TRT could benefit from mdma use. Similar like mdma use in PTS treatment. Would love to hear your opinion about this.

 

[JeffDamsko]

yes tried it, and did work until next day 20:00 say 24 hours. Which would seem correct according to these half-life times from Erowid:
half life of MDMA is 9 hours +/- 2.25 hours (https://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=2871)

@nills tried small dose I think. Im up for this too soon. looking at these halflife times just a few mg could be enough. As it stopped working after 24 hours when dosage was 96/2/2/2/2 = 6. I took 120mg of 80% pure MDMA hence the 96. SO 12mg should work or a dose of 16mg of 80% pure.

 

[nills]

yes tried it, and did work until next day 20:00 say 24 hours. Which would seem correct according to these half-life times from Erowid:
half life of MDMA is 9 hours +/- 2.25 hours (https://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=2871)

@nills tried small dose I think. Im up for this too soon. looking at these halflife times just a few mg could be enough. As it stopped working after 24 hours when dosage was 96/2/2/2/2 = 6. I took 120mg of 80% pure MDMA hence the 96. SO 12mg should work or a dose of 16mg of 80% pure.

120mg (of pure MDMA) seems like a pretty standard dose for a moderate / strong experience. I think this is the right amount to experience the silence. When you do the quarters I don`t think the same effect will be achieved. You`ll be ok doing business as usual although I would n`t advice driving a car or anything ... these experiments are perfect for being creative and going into nature or seeing good good friends or even better ... meeting lovers

how did you know it was 80 percent pure?

 

[JeffDamsko]

we can test it here (semi-)legally in Holland at a drug testing facility they test almost every kind of drugs (illegal) you give 'em. You have to wait a week for results but I still have some and I'm interested in the small dose approach. And yes 120 mg is pretty standard dose, especially for my weight 112 kg.

I used to organize raves and owned a club (mmmm where did that tinnitus come from ) in the late 90's and early 00's so I'm pretty familiar with taking this drug. I've done a multiple of that dose in one night more than once so I'm not afraid of it. (no not gonna say what multiple, but it was bad hahaha)

Here is a link to the testing facility, in Dutch though:

http://www.adviesburodrugs.nl/testlab/

 

[linearb]

I'm curious what people are hoping to achieve with this.

The last time I took MDMA was october 2014. It definitely eliminated my ringing for the duration of the drug. Given that sort of proves that serotonin is related, and given that high or repeated doses of MDMA are demonstrably neurotoxic to serotonin transporters, it makes me hesitant to take it again any time soon.

 

[r_ve]

I have read of that, same with LSD.

Since my tinnitus, I have done MDMA and it neither improved nor made it any worse. I think it may be good for changing your attitude towards your tinnitus (because MDMA can change your view on life and how you think about things, sometimes you find a new sense in your life and your outlook is way more positive), so if your tinnitus is because of stress or psychological issues it MAY help but I doubt it will change anything if it's an organic problem (like an acoustic trauma).

 

[Balthazar]

I'm curious what people are hoping to achieve with this.

It's the bliss of being able to put your head to the pillow for 1 maybe 2 nights and hearing nothing but the rustle of your bedsheets. My head feels balanced, the right feels like the left again, I can be normal for a little while.

It's good to have a little control again.