My Introduction...

[attheedgeofscience]

Let me say straight away: I am not the forum type-of-person...

However, having spent a fair bit of time (and money) researching possible solutions to tinnitus, I thought I'd join this forum (as it is one of the better ones, I think) to share what I have learnt about tinnitus up until now (in case it may help others).

But, let me start at the beginning: towards the end of April, I developed a fullness in my ears (I had been sleeping with ear plugs on and off for a while). When the fullness began to subside, I noticed what seemed to be a "background" noise. Within a day or two, I realized I had tinnitus. My gut feeling told me that, this is serious. So I went to the emergency ward (it was a Saturday) within four days, and was prescribed a course of steroids. First dose was given intravenously (the rest as pills). This didn't work.

I went back to the clinic the following week and had a hearing test done which came back "normal". As it was normal, I concluded the reason for my tinnitus must lie elsewhere and decided to get the full check-up done: chiropractic evaluation, MRI, neurological evaluation, dentist evaluation. I also had a second hearing test done four weeks later (which also came back "normal"). So where was the cause of my tinnitus if everything is normal? As I carried the audiogram chart back to the doctor myself for the second hearing test, I noticed that the chart went up to 8 kHz (I was later to learn that this is normal as audiologists are only concerned with the speech frequencies). However, as my audiogram was sloping downwards at the 6 and 8 kHz frequencies, I thought to myself: what happens beyond that? Maybe I do have a hearing loss after all (at the higher frequencies)?

After this inconclusive evaluation, I did a significant amount of online research, and I finally decided to a see a well known (to some, infamous) tinnitus laser specialist, Dr. Wilden (here in Germany). I was skeptical, but decided I had nothing to loose (and after all he is a doctor). I was given a new hearing test at his clinic (which goes all the way up to 12,5 kHz). Based on this chart, the doctor suggested I do just 5 laser therapy sessions (as my hearing was relatively good). To my surprise, an improvement in my hearing could be measured already after these 5 sessions (= days). The tinnitus was still there but, at least something was "happening". Based on the experience of others who had tried laser therapy, I knew results probably wouldn't come quickly (even if my initial audiometric reading was good). So I went back for another consultation with dr. Wilden, and based on the latest audiogram, he suggested I go for another two sessions of laser therapy. At the same time, I decided to invest in a portable laser, so I could carry on the laser therapy at home without having to travel 300 km each way to his clinic. After 10 hours of clinic laser therapy and four weeks worth of home therapy, my hearing is now equal to that of a 20 year old (and I am 35) - see attached charts, for those who are interested. However, the tinnitus remains. On the one hand, I am very impressed with the work of doctor Wilden (most ENTs will tell you that hearing cannot be improved; that once gone, it is gone forever). On the other hand, my goal was to get rid of my tinnitus, not to improve my hearing. Price tag for this? 3600 Euros...

At this point, I basically had two choices: carry on with the laser therapy or look for an alternative. While I have not given the laser therapy up entirely, my gut feeling guided me to the alternative (if there are any...). Somehow I ended up reading about hearing loss and stem cell therapy. On the entire Internet, I could - however - only find about 15 unique articles involving people actually having been treated for hearing loss with stem cells (all of them experimental, as you probably know). Not a single article about tinnitus (only a few for MS patients having been treated for tinnitus as a "secondary" symptom using stem cells). So, I decided to contact a few clinics directly - as well as those resource organizations that guide patients to the right clinic. After two weeks, I managed to track down a clinic which has actually had good results with treating a patient for both hearing loss and tinnitus. Admittedly, it was also the only clinic...

And that's basically where I am today. This Saturday, I will be leaving for a clinic in Bangkok. Initially, they suggested using my own stem cells (adipose), but later came back saying I should have the cord blood stem cells. The stay is two weeks. I have no idea what to expect (and apparently nor does anyone else). What I do know is that I have just been informed that I should refrain from alcohol one week ahead of the treatment. So I am having my very last beer (for 6 months) while writing this introduction.

Will do an update once I have something worthwhile to report.

attheedgeofscience

 

[Sherri786]

Let me say straight away: I am not the forum type-of-person...

However, having spent a fair bit of time (and money) researching possible solutions to tinnitus, I thought I'd join this forum (as it is one of the better ones, I think) to share what I have learnt about tinnitus up until now (in case it may help others).

But, let me start at the beginning: ...

Thank you for your post ! Pls keep us updated and wish you all the best.

 

[Markku]

This is so interesting. First that the laser therapy actually improved your hearing, which is quite unbelievable as everything I've read about low-level laser therapy for hearing loss / tinnitus has been quite underwhelming...

But the stem cell therapy, huh!

Going to be super interesting to read how it goes.

Keep us posted and welcome to the forums,
Marku

 

[attheedgeofscience]

This is so interesting. First that the laser therapy actually improved your hearing, which is quite unbelievable as everything I've read about low-level laser therapy for hearing loss / tinnitus has been quite underwhelming...

But the stem cell therapy, huh!

Going to be super interesting to read how it goes.

Keep us posted and welcome to the forums,
Marku

Thanks...!

As for the laser therapy, hearing improvment will happen to everyone who undergoes the therapy - for sure...! What is much less certain is whether the tinnitus will go away when that hearing improvement takes place. Essentially laser therapy will heal existing hair cells (hence the hearing improvement), but if the hair cell is broken off altogether, then no amount of laser therapy will bring it back. So despite my significantly improved hearing (25 db in some places), I am where I started. Hence my decision to try something else.

I am not sure that the stem cell therapy will work, but if there is something in this world that has the potential to cure tinnitus (due to inner ear damage), then it is stem cell therapy. I don't believe in alternatives such as TRT, sound therapy, hypnosis, and so on.

Note: as there are many skeptics RE laser therapy (myself included), I specifically uploaded my audiograms before/after. In fact during the two months treatment, I managed to do seven audiograms...

 

[Sherri786]

Hospitals and clinics in Bangkok are super nice ! I went two years back, was just wonderful.

 

[RaZaH]

Yeah, can't wait to hear about your result.

 

[Hudson]

I will be very interested to hear how this turns out for you. I hope for the best of course !

 

[EddyLee]

Wow very interesting. Thailand is so near to me.
May i ask what's the stem cell treatment cost in Bangkok?

Hope to hear from you soon and good luck Jakob!

 

[EddyLee]

Just found a newest article on laser treatment study and they find it not so effective.
http://www.hindawi.com/isrn/otolaryngology/2013/916370/
I'm just guessing that maybe laser treatment is only effective with sudden and recent hearing lost?

 

[mick]

Just curious, and I'm in no hurry for an answer since I know you're in Thailand ... did your seven audiograms show a gradual improvement in hearing, or was the improvment sudden near the completion of your treatments? I'm assuming the audiogram dated in April was your last. Were the other 6 audiogram results very similar to each other, or did the graph for each of those deviate a little each time? Maybe a better way to ask this is, were all the audiogram results very similar except for the one that showed improvement? Was the improvement a steady improvement - i.e., each successive audiogram was better than the last? Would you mind posting your other audiograms?

I'm asking because I guess I'm a skeptic regarding laser therapies for the treatment of hearing loss or tinnitus. That's mostly because I've yet to read or hear a good explanation of the proposed mechanism that it works under.

I think a reasonable question to ask is "Did your hearing really improve, or did you just get better at taking hearing tests?" Audiograms are not perfect, and there is somewhat of a learning curve when taking them. You can get better results by just trying to do better. For instance, you can improve you results by just getting a sense for the cadence of the test. That is, you get a feeling when the next beep is going to come so you can pay attention better at that point in time. I, for instance, try to time my breathing so that I can hold my breath whenever I'm expecting the next beep to occur. I've also gotten better results by just guessing when the next beep will occur weather I actually heard it or not. I think it is plausible that people even imagine they've heard something because they are expecting it. I know when I've taken hearing tests I more than once wondered if I actually heard a sound or not. Sometmes I push the button in those instances, and sometimes I don't. Another factor is ambient noise. It is rarely zero, and that can have an impact on the accuracy. Lasty, I submit that the volume of one's tinnitus (which at least for me fluctuates significantly for no discernable reason), can effect one's ability to hear frequencies near your T frequency.

I'm not saying with certainty that laser therapy is worthless, but I think it is reasonable for both skeptics and non-skeptics to ask questions until a well designed double blind study demonstrates effectiveness.

I'm nonetheless very glad to hear you have found some benefit from the therapy. Even though I am a skeptic, I have more than once toyed with the idea of giving it a try.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

You raise some valid points that also became apparent as I was doing the audiograms. When doing the hearing tests, I therefore asked the audiologists to increase the loudness very slowly for all frequencies - and to repeat it for the 8 kHz and 12 kHz frequencies (so that I knew what sound to listen for when repeated).

That way I was fairly certain that the audiograms would paint the most accurate picture possibly.

Besides, a 25 db improvement is beyond statistical uncertainty.

As for laser therapy, it actually has about 25 different medical applications. I was first using it many years ago when I was doing physiotherapy for tendinitis of the achilles heel (I used to be a marathon runner). However, it is also used for wound healing, nerve healing for Bell's Palsy, and so on. Light carries energy. When used at the appropriate wavelength and strength, cells can absorb the light and will function better. A plant also tends to look a little greener when watered...

I will post the other audiograms when I can. The second audiogram was done 5 days after starting laser therapy, and showed an improvement already then.

 

[Owch]

Firstly good luck with your treatment in Bangkok - I wish you all the very best with it!

Thank you for posting your Audiograms. I have just come back from Dr Wilden's clinic myself and I recognise the audiogram format .

Your audiograms didn't look too bad to me before the treatment (I wish mine were that good!) but it's exciting to see the improvement you experienced. I'm no doctor but I can't help wondering if your tinnitus frequencies are indeed above the 12.5KHz frequency - would it be possible to have such good results now with tinnitus in that frequency range as surely it would mask a few of the frequencies and push the chart down in that region (I know I find it very hard to hear signals around my tinnitus frequencies, which I think contributes to my poor result in that area... well that and the genuine hearing loss!)?

Surely it would be worth your while getting an audiogram done up to 16KHz and maybe getting a professional to spend some time helping you determine exactly where your tinnitus region is? In this way you could maybe better monitor the effect your stem cell and other treatments are giving you?

 

[Owch]

I'm asking because I guess I'm a skeptic regarding laser therapies for the treatment of hearing loss or tinnitus. That's mostly because I've yet to read or hear a good explanation of the proposed mechanism that it works under..

There is a theory concerning how LLLT might work:

As I understood from what Dr Wilden said to me, the idea concerns the mitochondria in cells that are responsible for generating the ATP which is then used within those cells as a 'power source'. Putting it very simply, the proponents of LLLT believe that laser light is able to stimulate the mitochondria into generating more ATP, which in turn helps the cells to repair and regenerate themselves.

Dr Wilden's (rather more complete!) explanation of this process can be found in the following document:
http://www.lasertherapieregensburg.de/Book_EN.pdf

I do not have the background to comment on advanced biochemical processes like that. I'll just be very happy if the LLLT improves my hearing in the way it has for 'attheedgeofscience'

 

[mick]

@Owch,

Looking forward to hearing some progress reports. I think others would like to hear how things go as well. You might want to start a new thread to make such reports.

mick

 

[SteveToHeal]

Would love to hear how it goes. Keep us all posted and best of luck.

Looking for a LLLT provider here in South Africa.

Steve

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Just curious, and I'm in no hurry for an answer since I know you're in Thailand ... did your seven audiograms show a gradual improvement in hearing, or was the improvment sudden near the completion of your treatments? I'm assuming the audiogram dated in April was your last. Were the other 6 audiogram results very similar to each other, or did the graph for each of those deviate a little each time? Maybe a better way to ask this is, were all the audiogram results very similar except for the one that showed improvement? Was the improvement a steady improvement - i.e., each successive audiogram was better than the last? Would you mind posting your other audiograms?

I'm asking because I guess I'm a skeptic regarding laser therapies for the treatment of hearing loss or tinnitus. That's mostly because I've yet to read or hear a good explanation of the proposed mechanism that it works under.

I think a reasonable question to ask is "Did your hearing really improve, or did you just get better at taking hearing tests?" Audiograms are not perfect, and there is somewhat of a learning curve when taking them. You can get better results by just trying to do better. For instance, you can improve you results by just getting a sense for the cadence of the test. That is, you get a feeling when the next beep is going to come so you can pay attention better at that point in time. I, for instance, try to time my breathing so that I can hold my breath whenever I'm expecting the next beep to occur. I've also gotten better results by just guessing when the next beep will occur weather I actually heard it or not. I think it is plausible that people even imagine they've heard something because they are expecting it. I know when I've taken hearing tests I more than once wondered if I actually heard a sound or not. Sometmes I push the button in those instances, and sometimes I don't. Another factor is ambient noise. It is rarely zero, and that can have an impact on the accuracy. Lasty, I submit that the volume of one's tinnitus (which at least for me fluctuates significantly for no discernable reason), can effect one's ability to hear frequencies near your T frequency.

I'm not saying with certainty that laser therapy is worthless, but I think it is reasonable for both skeptics and non-skeptics to ask questions until a well designed double blind study demonstrates effectiveness.

I'm nonetheless very glad to hear you have found some benefit from the therapy. Even though I am a skeptic, I have more than once toyed with the idea of giving it a try.

"Here you go..."

I have provided insight as to why there might be discrepancies between Dr. Wilden's audiograms vs. audiograms done at other clinics in this post:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/am-101-tactt1-results-released.1994/page-20#post-38164

The audiogram done 7 months later at another clinic confirms that there has been an improvement in my hearing (see upload below).

EDIT:

I should probably mention that while cold laser therapy did improve my hearing, it did little for my tinnitus (only real effect was that I began to sleep slightly better). Stem cell therapy has improved my tinnitus, however.

 

[SteveToHeal]

Stem cell therapy has improved my tinnitus, however.

That is amazing! Can you give us some more info on the stem cell therapy you underwent and in terms of your tinnitus, how much better it is, post treatment. Do you still feel that your tinnitus is as disabling as before? I am sure a lot of us are keen to hear if it is a possible cure for T. And if so, what the costs, times and preparations are for such a procedure and what is required.

Thanks

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Try this:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-trip-to-bangkok-stem-cell-treatment-journal.1884/

and

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/am-101-tactt1-results-released.1994/page-21#post-38500

I would not recommend stem cells as a first line choice for treating cochlear induced tinnitus. But, it was the only choice when I embarked on a quest for the cure last summer. I would wait for the results of my next experiment: intratympanic Ketamine injections (= equivalent to AM101 clinical trial) before you take any action. This is likely to be much more cost effective.

 

[tomytl]

Let me say straight away: I am not the forum type-of-person...

However, having spent a fair bit of time (and money) researching possible solutions to tinnitus, I thought I'd join this forum (as it is one of the better ones, I think) to share what I have learnt about tinnitus up until now (in case it may help others).

But, let me start at the beginning: towards the end of April, I developed a fullness in my ears (I had been sleeping with ear plugs on and off for a while). When the fullness began to subside, I noticed what seemed to be a "background" noise. Within a day or two, I realized I had tinnitus. My gut feeling told me that, this is serious. So I went to the emergency ward (it was a Saturday) within four days, and was prescribed a course of steroids. First dose was given intravenously (the rest as pills). This didn't work.

I went back to the clinic the following week and had a hearing test done which came back "normal". As it was normal, I concluded the reason for my tinnitus must lie elsewhere and decided to get the full check-up done: chiropractic evaluation, MRI, neurological evaluation, dentist evaluation. I also had a second hearing test done four weeks later (which also came back "normal"). So where was the cause of my tinnitus if everything is normal? As I carried the audiogram chart back to the doctor myself for the second hearing test, I noticed that the chart went up to 8 kHz (I was later to learn that this is normal as audiologists are only concerned with the speech frequencies). However, as my audiogram was sloping downwards at the 6 and 8 kHz frequencies, I thought to myself: what happens beyond that? Maybe I do have a hearing loss after all (at the higher frequencies)?

After this inconclusive evaluation, I did a significant amount of online research, and I finally decided to a see a well known (to some, infamous) tinnitus laser specialist, Dr. Wilden (here in Germany). I was skeptical, but decided I had nothing to loose (and after all he is a doctor). I was given a new hearing test at his clinic (which goes all the way up to 12,5 kHz). Based on this chart, the doctor suggested I do just 5 laser therapy sessions (as my hearing was relatively good). To my surprise, an improvement in my hearing could be measured already after these 5 sessions (= days). The tinnitus was still there but, at least something was "happening". Based on the experience of others who had tried laser therapy, I knew results probably wouldn't come quickly (even if my initial audiometric reading was good). So I went back for another consultation with dr. Wilden, and based on the latest audiogram, he suggested I go for another two sessions of laser therapy. At the same time, I decided to invest in a portable laser, so I could carry on the laser therapy at home without having to travel 300 km each way to his clinic. After 10 hours of clinic laser therapy and four weeks worth of home therapy, my hearing is now equal to that of a 20 year old (and I am 35) - see attached charts, for those who are interested. However, the tinnitus remains. On the one hand, I am very impressed with the work of doctor Wilden (most ENTs will tell you that hearing cannot be improved; that once gone, it is gone forever). On the other hand, my goal was to get rid of my tinnitus, not to improve my hearing. Price tag for this? 3600 Euros...

At this point, I basically had two choices: carry on with the laser therapy or look for an alternative. While I have not given the laser therapy up entirely, my gut feeling guided me to the alternative (if there are any...). Somehow I ended up reading about hearing loss and stem cell therapy. On the entire Internet, I could - however - only find about 15 unique articles involving people actually having been treated for hearing loss with stem cells (all of them experimental, as you probably know). Not a single article about tinnitus (only a few for MS patients having been treated for tinnitus as a "secondary" symptom using stem cells). So, I decided to contact a few clinics directly - as well as those resource organizations that guide patients to the right clinic. After two weeks, I managed to track down a clinic which has actually had good results with treating a patient for both hearing loss and tinnitus. Admittedly, it was also the only clinic...

And that's basically where I am today. This Saturday, I will be leaving for a clinic in Bangkok. Initially, they suggested using my own stem cells (adipose), but later came back saying I should have the cord blood stem cells. The stay is two weeks. I have no idea what to expect (and apparently nor does anyone else). What I do know is that I have just been informed that I should refrain from alcohol one week ahead of the treatment. So I am having my very last beer (for 6 months) while writing this introduction.

Will do an update once I have something worthwhile to report.

\Jakob
(Leipzig, Germany - I am Danish, however)

Hi,
first of all, thanks for all your information you shared. It's very interesting to read.
I'm 39 and suffering from T,Hyperacusis and some hearing loss (-30db at 1khz) and
some high frequency loss in >10 khz. ( after my third relapse)
It's a series from sudden hearing losses.....
I did almost all therapies, infusions, hbo, vitamins, acupuncture... nothing with really success...
In 2004 I bought a Tinnitool, the weak one... I uesed it and it felt good, even I can't say
if there was a healing process of it... but fact, I started to feel better.
http://www.tinnitool.ch/index.php
Hearing Distortion and Hyperacusis get much better, this is what I am interested in...
Tinnitus alone I probably can manage...

After I felt good after my first ear problems,I throwed this toot in the trash, because I have broken
the light fiber.

Now I am thinking to give a try again. Dr. Wilden doesn't offer therapy right now...
for some reason I don't know.
Do you think, his home laser does have some more piotential that a tinnitool?
http://www.lumomed.de/index.php?opt...ystem&catid=49:heimtherapie&Itemid=96&lang=de
http://www.energytransmitter.com/global/html/produkte/bestellung3_neu.php


How is your state of Tinnitus? I hope you got some increase in well beeing.
My situation is totally terrible now, with all things together...

Hope to read from you, feel free to write me also to inbox.

Greets Tom

 

[attheedgeofscience]

@tomytl

The tinnitool laser is too weak (can't remember if it is 5mw or 15mw) for therapy.

You need a high dose laser of good quality (30 mw or more). Most low level lasers come with red light wavelength. The red light will target the part of the cochlear which is responsible for high frequency hearing (6-8 kHz and above). For other parts of the cochlear, you need to use infrared wavelength laser light. This is probably best done at a clinic.

I have had great success with improving my hearing using lasers (as is also evident from my posted audiograms). The tinnitus did not change much, however. But... I have spoken with a number of patients who have used laser therapy continously over many months (and years) - and they say that the tinnitus does improve, but that the results do not come until 6-8 months after beginning the therapy. So the "trick" is to keep at it - and to continue to keep at it. Which is why home laser therapy is the best option and also the most cost effective treatment. I do recommend seeing a doctor about the treatment to begin with, however. After that, you can continue on your own. Dr. Wilden is an expert in diseases of the inner ear, and would be a good starting point for that. His clinic is closed at the moment (as far as I know), and relocated to Spain.

One should also remember that low level laser therapy is regenerative medicine. And regenerative medicine is different from "normal medicine" in the sense that results do not come quickly. Cells and body parts do not heal "overnight." It takes time. I was amongst the first patients in Denmark to use low level laser therapy for treating tendinitis some 10 years ago at a sports rehabilitation clinic (I was a marathon runner).

You can find inspiration here:

http://healingmenieres.wordpress.com/

and here

http://laserhelpfortinnitus.blogspot.de/

I have kept in touch with the Australian woman from the link just above. She continues to experience improvements.

You can read about my own improvements here:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/am-101-tactt1-results-released.1994/page-21#post-38500

Lastly, I should mention that low level laser therapy is also being used to treat nerve damage in patients with Bell's Palsy - so even more traditional parts of the medical community are beginning to accept that lasers do work.

 

[SteveToHeal]

Hi attheedgeofscience

I have contacted Dr Wilden to find out how much it would cost for someone in South Africa and it is pricey. Close to R40000. So not an easy purchase. The fact that you did not have any luck with it re your T, makes me skeptical about spending this kind of money on it. I also contacted the Austrailian woman Becky who experienced success with the Luci device on her T. I've contacted the Luci suppliers but haven't heard back yet. I have asked Dr Wilden what the difference is between the two and which one is better. Obviously he will promote his own. What do you think?

An obvious benefit of the Luci, is that it attaches to your arm, similar to an ipod so not as conspicuous. Although the glowing red lights in the ears are a giveaway anyway. I see you tried home therapy for 4 weeks yet improvement only happens after 6 to 8 months. How long er day do you have to wear it? Apologies if these questions have already been asked elsewhere. The inner workings of each device, power output of the laser have to also be considered. Maybe there is a cheaper, yet still effective option.

What I am really asking is if you think it is worth trying or just an expensive waste of time? I guess its hard to say because everyone reacts differently to different treatments. I guess we are all praying for the one fix to cure all.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Hi attheedgeofscience

I have contacted Dr Wilden to find out how much it would cost for someone in South Africa and it is pricey. Close to R40000. So not an easy purchase. The fact that you did not have any luck with it re your T, makes me skeptical about spending this kind of money on it. I also contacted the Austrailian woman Becky who experienced success with the Luci device on her T. I've contacted the Luci suppliers but haven't heard back yet. I have asked Dr Wilden what the difference is between the two and which one is better. Obviously he will promote his own. What do you think?

An obvious benefit of the Luci, is that it attaches to your arm, similar to an ipod so not as conspicuous. Although the glowing red lights in the ears are a giveaway anyway. I see you tried home therapy for 4 weeks yet improvement only happens after 6 to 8 months. How long er day do you have to wear it? Apologies if these questions have already been asked elsewhere. The inner workings of each device, power output of the laser have to also be considered. Maybe there is a cheaper, yet still effective option.

What I am really asking is if you think it is worth trying or just an expensive waste of time? I guess its hard to say because everyone reacts differently to different treatments. I guess we are all praying for the one fix to cure all.

Thanks,
Steve

Hmmm.... You are asking me to make a decision on your behalf. And that is something I cannot do.

What I can say is the following: LLLT is regenerative medicine; it does work in regenerating cells. Nerve cells cannot renew themselves the same way that - say - skin cells can (by dividing into two). We (therefore) have a limited number of cells in our inner ear, and the only way to restore their function - since they cannot do it themselves - is to supply them with energy at a higher rate than they consume. Over time, they will start to regenerate if supplied with laser light. This is evident from my audiograms - and for the skeptics out there - well, just google something like "LLLT dermatology" and you will find hundreds of articles on the usefulness of lasers for skin rejuvenation as well as clinical uses such as reducing eczema and acne.

Here's my laser that I purchased from Dr. Wilden, last summer:



It is 80 mW in strength. The luci - in comparison - is 30 mW.

As can be seen here, a red light wavelength laser can penetrate 1 cm of bone (these are darkness/daylight photos of my middle finger with the laser placed behind it):





The reason I stopped using it, is because after having gained 25db in hearing improvement, I would have expected to experience at least some corresponding improvement in my tinnitus volume and frequency. I didn't. However, according to dr. Wilden's theory on tinnitus and LLLT, tinnitus is the last symptom to dissappear of all the inner ear symptoms possible (ie. fullness in the ear, hyperacusis, dysacusis, and so on). And I think the following is also crititcal: by the time most human beings develop tinnitus, our ears have been in an overstrained state for quite some time (= often many years). To reverse that kind of damage is not simply done in a "couple of weeks". It requires a dedicated effort...!

If you look at my most recent audiogram here...



...you will observe several things:

"The arrogance and incompetence of the ENT community." Why is that? Well, had this been a standard audiogram of 0-8 kHz, the ENT would right away have concluded that there is nothing wrong with my hearing. On the day this audiogram was done, I specifically asked for an extended audiometric test (and had to go to another clinic to get it done). And as you can see, past 8 kHz, there is a very sharp drop in my case (especially my left ear at 40db for 12 kHz). If you extrapolate that curve onto 16 and 20 kHz, my hearing loss could easily be all the way down to 60-70 db... Not good. At all...! It is well known that it is the higher frequencies that tend to suffer the most. And to reverse my hearing loss of 60 db will definitely take time (probably 1 to 1½ years of consistent daily LLLT thearpy). Of course, I don't notice that kind of loss in my daily life - because the so-called "speech banana" (= audiogram language) in my case is well covered.

So what am I saying with all this? Well, even if you don't benefit tinnitus-wise from the LLLT therapy, you will be doing your inner ear cells a lot of good. Right now, LLLT is the only commercially available regenerative therapy out there. But my audiogram perhaps also helps to explain why tinnitus sufferers don't benefit from LLLT therapy immediately. And that is why home therapy is the only real option.

Whatever you do - if you do go for the treatment, then a good quality laser of minimum 30 mW is required. I will myself be getting a 2nd round of treatment as I am required to exhaust all possibilities before opting for HIFU surgery (as per instructions of the surgeon). In fact, I have already started. I will be increasing the dosage to about 7-8 times the recommended daily therapy (in order to "kick-start" the healing process). And if it works for Rebecca, then why shouldn't it work for you?

The price of my laser was EUR 1600,- (about USD 1800,-). And I use it for other purposes too (skin care).

And lastly, I am a huge fan of LLLT. It is regenerative medicine with essentially no side effects (except perhaps on your "wallet").

 

[rainman]

I almost completely agree with previous post, but is it 100% sure that there is no side effects? I mean that laser does not work in isolation, it will be covering a lot of areas, some brain and etc. Surely we dont know if its perfectly fine for all the cells in our body to be "radiated" daily for years.

All that said- It sure made my ears stronger, especially the laser at the clinic. I have the same home laser too and using it couple of time in a week. I luckily managed to visit the Wildens Regensburg clinic before it closed, this was the desicion i didnt ask anybody. I just googled, a lot of info in this site about it- just decided with a gut feeling and i didnt have to be dissapointed. It helped with my H. The pain dissappeared after clinic therapy and im so careful these days, its ridiculous, but i never now when my 9 month old decides to scream near me. Scary stuff.

I'm little mad about this therapy not being available in every ENT office with very low cost. Lots of people would benefit of it, but its just being rejected, cause of the capitalistic cynical era we are living. I'm still staying positive, cause there never have been better times for people with ear disorders as it's now. Lot of hope! Thank god for the ethernet too- we can witness clinical trials in real time, exciting times!

 

[SteveToHeal]

@attheedgeofscience

Thanks for all that great info. No, I am not asking you to make a call, if I should buy it or not. I do understand that everybody has different reactions to it and what works for one person, does not work for the next. I did try Becky on helpfortinnitus75@gmail.com but it bounced. I had a few chats on g+ with her and she referred me to the guys that supply the Luci. So I can't say why it helped her, with her T and not with yours. If you persist with the home LLLT, do you think your T will get better in time?

Do you think the Luci at 30mw or the Wilden one at 80mw is better? Your one looks very different to the one they are now selling. Yours is a pen. The one they offered me, is similar to the Luci, with earpieces. Maybe you went for the pen because it is cheaper and can be used on skin, as you said. I am really happy to hear that it improved your hearing. That is amazing!

Re what you said about this: "...opting for HIFU surgery (as per instructions of the surgeon). "

What is HIFU surgery?

And this: "In fact, I have already started. I will be increasing the dosage to about 7-8 times the recommended daily therapy (in order to "kick-start" the healing process). "

You mean the dosage of the HIFU surgery or the laser?

And lastly: "And if it works for Rebecca, then why shouldn't it work for you?"

Very good point. I am looking for more proof that it helps with T before making such a costly purchase.

Thanks again for all the good info.
Much appreciated and good luck with the Surgery. Keep us all posted !!

Steve

 

[SteveToHeal]

I almost completely agree with previous post, but is it 100% sure that there is no side effects? I mean that laser does not work in isolation, it will be covering a lot of areas, some brain and etc. Surely we dont know if its perfectly fine for all the cells in our body to be "radiated" daily for years.

All that said- It sure made my ears stronger, especially the laser at the clinic. I have the same home laser too and using it couple of time in a week. I luckily managed to visit the Wildens Regensburg clinic before it closed, this was the desicion i didnt ask anybody. I just googled, a lot of info in this site about it- just decided with a gut feeling and i didnt have to be dissapointed. It helped with my H. The pain dissappeared after clinic therapy and im so careful these days, its ridiculous, but i never now when my 9 month old decides to scream near me. Scary stuff.

I'm little mad about this therapy not being available in every ENT office with very low cost. Lots of people would benefit of it, but its just being rejected, cause of the capitalistic cynical era we are living. I'm still staying positive, cause there never have been better times for people with ear disorders as it's now. Lot of hope! Thank god for the ethernet too- we can witness clinical trials in real time, exciting times!

@rainman

very good point. What other areas does it affect? You would think that it would help all cells that it touched. Then again, I'm not a doctor, so who knows. Maybe it causes some perfect cells to overproduce. Also not good. I will ask all these good questions that you raise and report back.

Can you elaborate on "making your ears stronger" ?
Is H = hypercusis?
If you have T, did it help with your tinnitus at all?
pain? You mean pain associated with your H?
Also, which laser did you buy? The pen or the ear fitting one? Was it 80mw in power?
Lastly, do you know of any people using the laser that it has worked on for their T?

That's a good job that you protect your ears, especially from your little ones high screams. LOL. I agree with you, they should make LLLT a standard in ENT offices, if it works. And that we get it on medical aid. The amount of money we sufferers have to spend on trial and error is crazy. Which real time ear disorder trials are you closely following at the moment ? Sounds interesting.

All the best with your recovery. It sounds like you are doing well with it.

Steve

 

[rainman]

No T, yes hyperacusis ear pain. Stronger ie. not hurting when bird sing, same pen. Its more effective than those ear plug ones and cheaper too at least from Dr. Wilden. Real time clinical trials, well for example read up on the AM101 topic, there is people who give out info in real time, that otherwise you would have to wait years for trial report. For experimental human trial, read up ATEOS postings. Im actually making a generalization, i read up lot of forums that concern me, i can read people who take novelty AD drug in real time. Its going on in many areas, thats what im referring.

Take care!

 

[SteveToHeal]

That's great. Thanks rainman. I'll take a look. Yes, I have also been reading some reports on AM101. I'm really hoping the trials are successful. Also, good to know that the laser pen is more effective than the ear plug ones. It is a pity though as the ear plug ones you could sit and use, whilst doing your work. Time to invent a holder for the pen!! I'll check both out and make a call. Thanks again for the info.

 

[rainman]

http://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_ms2002.htm

this will hold the pen nicely but you have to sit stationary, its a big minus and actually might bring big plus to the plugs. I mean if one uses the plugs more, due the convience, then they could be more effective? Smt to think about, good mind fuel.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

@attheedgeofscience

Thanks for all that great info. No, I am not asking you to make a call, if I should buy it or not. I do understand that everybody has different reactions to it and what works for one person, does not work for the next. I did try Becky on helpfortinnitus75@gmail.com but it bounced. I had a few chats on g+ with her and she referred me to the guys that supply the Luci. So I can't say why it helped her, with her T and not with yours. If you persist with the home LLLT, do you think your T will get better in time?

Do you think the Luci at 30mw or the Wilden one at 80mw is better? Your one looks very different to the one they are now selling. Yours is a pen. The one they offered me, is similar to the Luci, with earpieces. Maybe you went for the pen because it is cheaper and can be used on skin, as you said. I am really happy to hear that it improved your hearing. That is amazing!

Re what you said about this: "...opting for HIFU surgery (as per instructions of the surgeon). "

What is HIFU surgery?

And this: "In fact, I have already started. I will be increasing the dosage to about 7-8 times the recommended daily therapy (in order to "kick-start" the healing process). "

You mean the dosage of the HIFU surgery or the laser?

And lastly: "And if it works for Rebecca, then why shouldn't it work for you?"

Very good point. I am looking for more proof that it helps with T before making such a costly purchase.

Thanks again for all the good info.
Much appreciated and good luck with the Surgery. Keep us all posted !!

Steve

These were the LLLT pioneers before me who helped shape my thinking in terms of making a decision for LLLT therapy last summer:

http://laserhelpfortinnitus.blogspot.de/
http://healingmenieres.wordpress.com/
http://www.progressrec.com/curing-tinnitus.html

and Dr. Wilden's own sites:

http://www.dr-wilden.de/
http://www.dasgesundeohr.de/

My advice: study the material above - as I did for a 2-3 week period last summer - and then come to a conclusion as to whether you want to proceed or not.

The pen laser is better because it has a higher strength. Strength in milliwatts is potentially quite important. How important is not for me to answer - but it is important (dr. Wilden talks about it as does the lady from the healingmenieresblog; Hansi Cross also touches upon the subject - but more in terms of what he tried, rather than the science behind it).

If you want to go for clinic therapy strength lasers then you should buy this one:

http://www.healinglightseminars.com/products/laser-systems/luminex-laser-therapy-system/

Q: If you persist with the home LLLT, do you think your T will get better in time?

You are asking me to speculate - and that is something I don't do (otherwise I would be a tinnitus scientist working on a continously 10-year prolonged research timeline). I like to base conclusions on facts. Not theories. But if you really ask me, then yes, I think there will be an improvement. But I don't think the tinnitus will dissappear entirely. There are a number of theories on how nerves regenerate - and it appears that they do so in cycles of 9 months. Within these 9 months of therapy, one will tend to go through a period of rapid improvement, followed by a period of slight improvement, and then almost no improvement. And then it starts over again. I am not going to go into the biology of nerve regeneration because you might as well study the material I provided above (instead of me having to type it all for you).

The good thing about home therapy is that you can keep it up for as long as you like. Hansi cross goes into great detail on how he experimented with laser dosage and wavelengths.

HIFU is non-invasive neuro-surgery. You can read about it here:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...used-ultrasound-surgery.276/page-6#post-42580

The dosage I am referring to, is the laser dosage. LLLT therapy is generally very safe and well tolerated. The body can tolerate high amounts of laser light for a shorter period of time (= weeks). After that a break is advised. The only side effects tend to be at the begining of the therapy where some people will experience vertigo and increased tinnitus. This is harmless and temporary, and is only a sign that the therapy is working as it should. But, it is also the reason why I advise people to start with the therapy at a clinic - because then a doctor is present and can take action if necessary.

And lastly - remember the following basic theorem of biology: if cells are supplied with more energy than they utilize, then they will start to regenerate over time.

 

[SteveToHeal]

Talk about taking a stand ;-)
I'm a muso as well so I know about mic stands. I never thought i'd be using one to balance a laser on it. I'll ask the professionals what is best in terms of effectiveness. I think it comes back to your argument. Would 6 months for half an hour every day, radiating your ear, as well as surrounding areas have any side effects?
It's something i'll have to investigate first.
Btw: How many hours per day do you use the laser for or what is the recommended amount of usage per day?