My Tinnitus Has Changed ...

[Dana]

@Zimichael & @Dr. Nagler It's so entertaining to see two very intelligent people fight. Thank God there is some humor on this board, not only sadness.

My T reacts (positively) to humor. (I had to add that so my post is on the topic)

 

[Zimichael]

@Zimichael & @Dr. Nagler It's so entertaining to see two very intelligent people fight. Thank God there is some humor on this board, not only sadness.

My T reacts (positively) to humor. (I had to add that so my post is on the topic)

Ummmmmmmmm... Sorry @Dana I have no idea what you are referring to??? Thankfully the "ignore" feature was upgraded about a month or so ago so that finally it was possible to use that great "ignore" function for Nagler, whereas before it was only possible for 'normal members'. It has a godsend for me.

Best to you... Zimichael

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Zimichael & Dr. Nagler It's so entertaining to see two very intelligent people fight. Thank God there is some humor on this board, not only sadness.

Truth be told, I haven't read any of Zimichael's posts in some two months now. I just don't bother with them. So there's no fight where I'm concerned. But for some reason this one grabbed my attention, and I could not believe he's still at it. But more importantly, as I said, one wonders what role his compulsive tendencies play in his overall pathology.

I mean, really. He could have said, "Seems like you have attributes of what I call 'SRT/H' = 'Sound-Reactive T and H'" and stopped right there, but instead he just had to pick at some old sore.

stephen nagler

 

[Dana]

@Zimichael & @Dr. Nagler Ok, you may continue the fight indirectly pretending that you are talking to me. I don't mind. Sorry, I just can't help laughing at what i'm reading.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

@Zimichael & @Dr. Nagler Ok, you may continue the fight indirectly pretending that you are talking to me. I don't mind. Sorry, I just can't help laughing at what i'm reading.

Dana, I guess I take sound-reactive tinnitus more seriously than you do. I see people in my practice with sound-reactive tinnitus all the time. It is not a laughing matter. What's more, they get better when treated appropriately. That's not a laughing matter either.

stephen nagler

 

[Dana]

I have to repeat myself. You guys are so funny.
@ Dr. Nagler It's not the sound-reactivity that I laugh at. I realise it's an important matter. It's your reactivity to each other that I find so funny.

 

[Dana]

@Zimichael & @Dr. Nagler Regarding your conditions, the reactivity to each other, I see that you are both in denial. The first step in treating a condition is to acknowledge it. But if you don't and continue to have these conditions, it's OK, they are not lethal, the only person in danger is me, as I am about to die from laughter.

 

[Stink]

@Zimichael & @Dr. Nagler Regarding your conditions, the reactivity to each other, I see that you are both in denial. The first step in treating a condition is to acknowledge it. But if you don't and continue to have these conditions, it's OK, they are not lethal, the only person in danger is me, as I am about to die of laughter.

you have a weird sense of humor

 

[Dana]

@Stink Better a weird sense of humor than none. If there is something serious going on here, I missed it. I know that having severe T can lead to a loss of the sense of humor. That's a serious side effect. Thank God I don't have it, although I have severe T, just like you.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

If there is something serious going on here, I missed it.

Then you missed it.

The issue was what role compulsive tendencies might play in what some people refer to as "reactive tinnitus." Specifically in Zimichael's case, where he sees totally cloistering himself as the only viable solution to his problem.

stephen nagler

 

[Steve]

From personal experience, and I can only speak for myself, reactive tinnitus has nothing to do with compulsive tendencies.

It creeps up on me without attending to it at all. I will be doing something and then will become aware that my tinnitus - generally a tone in my left ear but not always - has jumped above the sound. Not usually all of my tinnitus, just one particular sound of it which has happened to react.

 

[111]

The issue was what role compulsive tendencies might play in what some people refer to as "reactive tinnitus." Specifically in Zimichael's case, where he sees totally cloistering himself as the only viable solution to his problem.

I find this style of reply to be a typical response from you to anyone who does not list TRT as their only way of looking at overcoming their issues.

I happen to have an unbiased view when reading what people are trying on their journey to recovery, unlike yourself of course. I have read a lot of Zimichael's posts over the last year or so and he has provided a lot of good unbiased information to assist people.

He has actually tried quite a number of things, other than cloistering himself away, as you wrongly and arrogantly stated.
If you recall not that long ago he was one of this sites very early Retigabine trialees, which I think was a very courageous thing to do, considering the fact that people were doing this trial on their own, and at the time he was completing this personal trial he kept everyone informed of his condition and any improvements he had.
I also recall some incredible stuff about acupuncture treatments in Bangkok; attempts at hearing aids and masking to name just a few things, this list is not all of it as there are other things as well.

I don't quite understand how you can see the above as "cloistering"? Sounds far from it to me.

I would be very interested to know what you would consider to be other viable solutions, given all the above he has tried, so please do enlighten us, and if possible could you leave out TRT at all, if that's possible ?

Before you answer can we make sure everyone is aware of your own business which preaches the TRT method, then there would also be your 2 year involvement in the Neuromonics company, and then the 3 years you was involved with the company that you assisted in developing devices specifically for, yes you've guessed it, TRT.

 

[RCP1]

TRT isn't just any old treatment. TRT actually works. It should have a different status to other "Treatments". Just lobbing it in as just another thing to try is quite wrong. If people are passionate about it - Thats a good thing as they have obviously found relief. TRT has thus far saved my life and got me back to normality. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it and don't beat down on people who have found something that works and want to spread the knowledge to others. The fact is simply - Tinnitus doesnt have a wide array of proven valid treatments - It just doesnt. In fact all it really has is TRT. No wonder folks who have tried it and like the results go on about it... I mean thats pretty much shouting about the entire basket of proven treatments - Theres only one egg in it but whose fault is that...

I hope Autifony delivers and if it does I'll be raving about that - But until that day arrives I'm happy with the relief I have achieved through the practice of TRT.. As far as I see it theres nothing else just at this moment in time.

 

[Markku]

TRT isn't just any old treatment. TRT actually works. It should have a different status to other "Treatments". Just lobbing it in as just another thing to try is quite wrong. If people are passionate about it - Thats a good thing as they have obviously found relief. TRT has thus far saved my life and got me back to normality. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it and don't beat down on people who have found something that works and want to spread the knowledge to others. The fact is simply - Tinnitus doesnt have a wide array of proven valid treatments - It just doesnt. In fact all it really has is TRT. No wonder folks who have tried it and like the results go on about it... I mean thats pretty much shouting about the entire basket of proven treatments - Theres only one egg in it but whose fault is that...

I hope Autifony delivers and if it does I'll be raving about that - But until that day arrives I'm happy with the relief I have achieved through the practice of TRT.. As far as I see it theres nothing else just at this moment in time.

I'm very happy about your success (as you know), but TRT is not proven and shouldn't be advertised/considered as such.

http://www.cochrane.org/CD007330/ENT_tinnitus-retraining-therapy-trt-for-tinnitus

Only one study, involving 123 participants, matched the inclusion criteria for this review. Although this study suggested considerable benefit for TRT in the treatment of tinnitus the study quality was not good enough to draw firm conclusions. No side effects of treatment were described. Further research is required.​

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I would be very interested to know what you would consider to be other viable solutions, given all the above he has tried, so please do enlighten us, and if possible could you leave out TRT at all, if that's possible ?

I am sorry, but I cannot satisfy the premise of your question since TRT is the only predictably effective method I am aware of that addresses noise-sensitive tinnitus.

Before you answer can we make sure everyone is aware of your own business which preaches the TRT method,

OK. I own and operate a TRT clinic in Atlanta, Georgia. All of my conflicts of interest have been previously disclosed, including the fact that I do not make a dime from TRT or from my clinic. All of the profits go to charity. See: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-retraining-therapy-trt-financial-disclosure.6281/

then there would also be your 2 year involvement in the Neuromonics company,

Right. Between 2002 and 2004 I was a paid consultant to an Australian company called TinniTech, which was the predecessor for the company called Neuromonics. My title at that time was "Vice President for Clinical Affairs," but that was in order to lend more credibility to the company, which was then in its infancy. For the past 11 years I have had no financial relationship whatsoever with TinniTech or with Neuromonics. All of that has been disclosed. See: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/dr-stephen-nagler.5936/

and then the 3 years you was involved with the company that you assisted in developing devices specifically for, yes you've guessed it, TRT.

Right. That was disclosed at https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-retraining-therapy-trt-financial-disclosure.6281/ - including the fact that I have no connection whatsoever with the company (other than the fact that I still have friends who work there) and make no royalties from the devices I helped develop.

I believe in TRT because the model makes sense to me, and the treatment pretty-much saved my life. Therein lies the entirety of my bias. I have no conflict of interest, financial or otherwise.

stephen nagler

 

[attheedgeofscience]

All of the profits go to charity.

@Dr. Nagler I am curious as to which organization(s) benefit(s) from your generosity.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I am curious as to which organization(s) benefit(s) from your generosity.

Last year I donated to the following charitable organizations (in alphabetical order):

Alzheimer's Association
American Tinnitus Association
Arthritis Association
American Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
Atlanta Ballet
Atlanta Opera
Beads of Courage
CARE
Children's Wish Foundation International
Congenital Heart
CURE Childhood Cancer Association
Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
Doctors Without Borders
Faith in Practice (Christian Charities)
Gentle Giants Draft Horse Rescue
Hearing Health Foundation
Hebrew Order of David (Jewish Charities)
March of Dimes
Mothers Against Drunk Driving
National Multiple Sclerosis Foundation
Smile Train
Susan B. Komen for the Cure (Breast Cancer)
Turning Point Women's Healthcare
and several others

stephen nagler

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Last year I donated to the following charitable organizations (in alphabetical order):

Alzheimer's Association
American Tinnitus Association
Arthritis Association
American Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
Atlanta Ballet
Atlanta Opera
Beads of Courage
CARE
Children's Wish Foundation International
Congenital Heart
CURE Childhood Cancer Association
Cystic Fibrosis Foundation
Doctors Without Borders
Faith in Practice (Christian Charities)
Gentle Giants Draft Horse Rescue
Hearing Health Foundation
Hebrew Order of David (Jewish Charities)
March of Dimes
Mothers Against Drunk Driving
National Multiple Sclerosis Foundation
Smile Train
Susan B. Komen for the Cure (Breast Cancer)
Turning Point Women's Healthcare
and several others

Thank you, Dr. Nagler (very much).

But in your "financial disclosure", you mention that...

I draw a salary of $1 per year. 100% of the profits from my clinic are donated to research towards a cure for tinnitus as allocated by an independent entity.

...and many/most of the organizations you mention are not involved with tinnitus (perhaps the "independent entity" got it wrong).

But I certainly appreciate your generosity!

 

[Dr. Nagler]

But I certainly appreciate your generosity!

I am not about to disclose how much I donate to which charities or how much money my practice generates. Folks will either take me at my word or not.

stephen nagler

 

[Dana]

@Dr. Nagler
I can see how disclosing how much money your practice generates and how much you donate to charities would be a BIG problem!
Question is: why all this "money circulation"? If the money generated by the practice is donated anyway, why the poor T sufferers are put to pay large amounts of money for TRT and they are not treated for free? Are they mistaken with some rich people? From what I know, suffering of T leads the sufferer to poverty, so he should be the first in line to receive from charities, not to donate indirectly to other charities.
I am not referring to you, of course, Dr. Nagler. In your case T didn't lead you to poverty, on the contrary!

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Question is: why all this "money circulation"?

This is really getting ridiculous ... and abusive. I am sorry that I dignified Jakob's inquiry with a response, and I am certainly not going to let you dictate how and where I choose to be charitable.

Enough already.

stephen nagler

 

[Dana]

@Dr. Nagler You have not "dignified" Jakob nor me with your responses, as you answers, to him and to me, were just insults, unless you consider that people who were insulted by you as being "honored", as they had the "honor" to be insulted by your great persona.
I would rather not be " dignified" by you with another answer. I feel "dignified" just about enough!

 

[Dana]

@Dr. Nagler ....and I was not dictating you anything anyway. I was just expressing my bewilderment as to what you are doing with the poor T sufferer's money, charging him in order for you to be "charitable" with others. Doesn't make sense!
Yes, this is ridiculous. But the ridiculous started long before you consider that it did, just about the time you started to insult and to hurt TT members, something a real doctor never does. "Primum non nocere!" But you have seem to have forgotten about the first principle a doctor should have.
No more dignifying me by you.
It's useless anyway. I have "habituated" to your answers. I have applied "DrNRT" (Doctor Nagler Retrainig Therapy) and it worked like a charm. Now your anwers don't bother me no matter how LOUD AND ANNOYING they are. I wish TRT had the same effect on all T sufferers, but I heard TRT doesn't help more than natural habituation which, unlike TRT, is for free.

 

[NiNyu]

Dear @Dr. Nagler the truth often is ridiculous and sad. Just because you are inquired here, does NOT mean you are being abused. Questions cannot hurt. That being said, @ATEOS and @Dana raised some very valid points.

I wonder though does every client has to pay the very same amount for the service you provide no matter their financial situation?
I'm asking this because I am on the same page with Dana, suffering of severe intrusive debilitating T often leads to poverty. Or is TRT covered by insurance?

Given the list of charitable organizations it is quite obvious MOST of the profits are NOT allocated to a cure/treatment for T. Please correct me, if I'm wrong. So, where lies the allegiance of this independent entity? Who are they associated with? Might there be a conflict of interest or misunderstanding? A snake won't swallow its tail, right? Or is it just all down the rabbit's hole? And business as usual. I genuinely wonder.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I genuinely wonder.

Every penny of profit from my clinic last year went to the American Tinnitus Association, an entity with a Scientific Advisory Committee that independently assesses grant proposals and makes recommendations based upon the quality of the proposal as well as where it fits along ATA's Roadmap to a Cure. Due to start-up costs (equipment, furniture, website, management consultant fees, licenses, etc.), due to the enormous cost of medical malpractice insurance in the US, due to the number of patients I treated for free, due the fact that I only see one new patient a week (because of the time invested in each patient and because I am semi-retired), and due to the fact that I like to travel with my wife (which leaves fewer weeks in which to see those patients), my profits were less than they might otherwise be, but they all went to ATA. The other charitable donations listed above came from income from my investments, which also covered my living expenses, travel, entertainment, etc. Yes, I am 66 years old and planned my retirement well.

The next thing y'all are going to ask for is a copy of my books, bank statements, brokerage accounts, and tax returns for the last five years.

I am so over this witch hunt.

 

[Dana]

So Dr Nagler is charitable with everybody except for T sufferers that enter his office. Sad.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

due to the number of patients I treated for free

If you treated patients for free, why can't you treat a patient from TinnitusTalk for free (as per the TRT thread)?

I am sure I could get someone to testify (in advance) that they would like to share the experience with the board by e.g. keeping a journal.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

So Dr Nagler is charitable with everybody except for T sufferers that enter his office. Sad.

Every patient who is truly in financial straits and seeks my care gets it at absolutely no charge. I call that being charitable. You can call it what you want - but either way you have just joined ATEOS and dboy on my "Ignore" list.

 

[Dana]

but either way you have just joined ATEOS and dboy on my "Ignore" list.

Wow, from the tone that the news were given to me I understand that this must be very serious punishment, although I do not see what have I lost here, as I would have never intented to ask Dr Nagler anything, as I am not at all impressed regarding his scientific knowledge about T, which i find is quite "thin", and I do not see what I could have had find out from his highness. If that "ignore" list of Dr Nagler is the list of people who had just about enough seeing how he is treating badly some TT members and how he contradicts himself and how he interferes in threads that have nothing to do with TRT and that are just for T sufferers (category from which I understand he is not a part of, as stated on his motto), people talking about something else than TRT, than I am honoured to be on that list, and indeed, I must admit that I feel dignified, although i didn't think I could be dignified by him, I was. I see that my colleagues are dboy and ATEOS. I see that I am in select company, so I have nothing to worry about.

Back on real topic of the thread: my T reacts in a good way at being put on dr Nagler's "ignore" list.

 

[dboy]

I see that I am in select company, so I have nothing to worry about.

Thank you my new friend, nice to make your acquaintance.

my T reacts in a good way at being put on dr Nagler's "ignore" list.

Yes, I have found it moderately rewarding too.