NeuroVR Device: Neurofeedback to Treat Tinnitus

[Christiaan]

Hi @Christiaan, to be honest, I'm not sure exactly why I need to cure my depression before I can do the VR sessions.

My guess about depression is that a depressed psychological state does not lead to a "cure" (even more so when it comes to such a complex disease).

That's why doctors say that you have to work on emotional management when you have tinnitus.

In any case, the ENT specialist in question made it clear to me that curing my depression is a prerequisite.

I emailed him a few days ago to ask him if this is the right time for me to start VR sessions (as I have been on antidepressants for 4 months).

He answered that he has to talk to my psychiatrist first (they work together) because he thinks the psychological state of the person is important to follow this protocol. He also added that there are general inclusion criteria that need to be checked beforehand.

On the one hand, it reassures me that this protocol is so supervised, because it means that he takes his patients seriously.

On the other hand, I can't wait to try it, as my sleep has been severely disturbed by tinnitus for three years.

Hi @Kam75, thanks for sharing this info. It's unfortunate that depression is considered an obstacle for getting a treatment for tinnitus. It seems that a lot of doctors work with this protocol. Dr. De Ridder told me the same thing as well (for the HD-tPNS + Ketamine trial).

I hope you'll gain access to this experimental treatment. Don't forget to share with us your experience with the VR device. Good luck!

 

[Kam75]

Hi @Kam75, thanks for sharing this info. It's unfortunate that depression is considered an obstacle for getting a treatment for tinnitus. It seems that a lot of doctors work with this protocol. Dr. De Ridder told me the same thing as well (for the HD-tPNS + Ketamine trial).

I hope you'll gain access to this experimental treatment. Don't forget to share with us your experience with the VR device. Good luck!

As I said before, of course I will share my feelings about the VR sessions, if hopefully I am accepted to follow the protocol

I've been on Tinnitus Talk for nearly 3 years now, and I've pretty much always shared my experience of what I've tried to do regarding my tinnitus.

It is essential to stay informed to give each other hope.

 

[koffee_monster]

Hi @Kam75, thanks for sharing this info. It's unfortunate that depression is considered an obstacle for getting a treatment for tinnitus. It seems that a lot of doctors work with this protocol. Dr. De Ridder told me the same thing as well (for the HD-tPNS + Ketamine trial).

I hope you'll gain access to this experimental treatment. Don't forget to share with us your experience with the VR device. Good luck!

I believe depression is an obstacle for most treatments, especially if they involve brain functions or psychological plasticity. There's a wide range of "side-effects" that may affect the improvement a subject can receive from treatment.

E.g.: Telling someone a placebo pill is actually cyanide, and then making them eat it (ignoring the obvious unethical aspect of this experiment) will most likely result in them feeling very ill and passing out within a few minutes.

This is because the mind is a very powerful part of the human body and can actually suppress the effects of effective treatment or amplify the feeling of negative effects, making the subject believe they are not improving at all. This is often the case when a patient is convinced the treatment cannot help them before they start it because of misinformation or irrational fear.

This type of negative thinking is more prevalent in people with depression, although a noticeable portion of people with depression do not show this negative thinking and are actually trying their hardest to have a positive, proactive outlook on the future. So the negative thinking generalization is not always justifiable as an argument to deny a patient treatment.

 

[Gb3]

@koffee_monster taking over Tinnitus Talk!

 

[Christiaan]

I believe depression is an obstacle for most treatments, especially if they involve brain functions or psychological plasticity. There's a wide range of "side-effects" that may affect the improvement a subject can receive from treatment.

E.g.: Telling someone a placebo pill is actually cyanide, and then making them eat it (ignoring the obvious unethical aspect of this experiment) will most likely result in them feeling very ill and passing out within a few minutes.

This is because the mind is a very powerful part of the human body and can actually suppress the effects of effective treatment or amplify the feeling of negative effects, making the subject believe they are not improving at all. This is often the case when a patient is convinced the treatment cannot help them before they start it because of misinformation or irrational fear.

This type of negative thinking is more prevalent in people with depression, although a noticeable portion of people with depression do not show this negative thinking and are actually trying their hardest to have a positive, proactive outlook on the future. So the negative thinking generalization is not always justifiable as an argument to deny a patient treatment.

Thanks for filling in the blanks about depression being an obstacle in clinical settings, @koffee_monster. I deeply appreciate that you've written this lengthy explanation and it certainly shows that you are an expert in this field of research.

I also agree with your last paragraph. In addition to your point, it's unfortunately often the case that health care professionals generally tend to see depression as a separate matter from tinnitus, or even the primary cause of one's emotional state, that needs to be dealt with, while it's often the outcome of suffering from tinnitus. But I'm hopeful that more and more people in this field of research understand that a paradigm shift is needed to stave off psychotherapy as the main focus for tinnitus treatment and prioritise resources toward bio-medical & pharmacological solutions.

 

[Ela Stefan]

Hi @Christiaan, to be honest, I'm not sure exactly why I need to cure my depression before I can do the VR sessions.

My guess about depression is that a depressed psychological state does not lead to a "cure" (even more so when it comes to such a complex disease).

That's why doctors say that you have to work on emotional management when you have tinnitus.

In any case, the ENT specialist in question made it clear to me that curing my depression is a prerequisite.

I emailed him a few days ago to ask him if this is the right time for me to start VR sessions (as I have been on antidepressants for 4 months).

He answered that he has to talk to my psychiatrist first (they work together) because he thinks the psychological state of the person is important to follow this protocol. He also added that there are general inclusion criteria that need to be checked beforehand.

On the one hand, it reassures me that this protocol is so supervised, because it means that he takes his patients seriously.

On the other hand, I can't wait to try it, as my sleep has been severely disturbed by tinnitus for three years.

Can you please ask if this treatment can be done online? If you buy it, can these sessions be done through guided protocol?

 

[Kam75]

Can you please ask if this treatment can be done online? If you buy it, can these sessions be done through guided protocol?

It is not a device that you buy, the virtual reality sessions take place in the hospital.

And the great thing is that the sessions will be fully covered by social welfare.

This means I won't lose any more money if it doesn't work out.

 

[GlennS]

For as long as I have had this condition, there is a moment (used to happen all the time, now less frequently) where I am at the edge between wake and sleep but still fully conscious where the screeching part of the tinnitus, the part that matters, the part that can't be unheard, just fades to zero. I try to hold that space there but only can for a second or two and then my brain slips back into the tinnitus pattern and there is nothing I can do to get back to it. If there were a VR system that would help train my mind to hold that space, I'd certainly give it a whirl.

Similar for me. There is a biochemical thing involved in sleep that mediates tinnitus which I wish could be bottled and sold.

 

[Fields]

Thanks for sharing, @Christiaan.

I'm based in the Netherlands, too. So I'll keep an eye out for the next trial.

They're running with the following catchphrase on their LinkedIn page: "Play the Tinnitus Away!"

I'm curious to learn what sort of 'game' they're developing around their treatment. Beat Saber meets Tinnitus?

 

[Christiaan]

Thanks for sharing, @Christiaan.

I'm based in the Netherlands, too. So I'll keep an eye out for the next trial.

They're running with the following catchphrase on their LinkedIn page: "Play the Tinnitus Away!"

I'm curious to learn what sort of 'game' they're developing around their treatment. Beat Saber meets Tinnitus?

Hey Fields, well, I guess we'll learn soon enough if we can play as a Jedi Knight (or as a Sith Lord if you are naughty by nature) and unleash the Force on our tinnitus

Anyway, I have just noticed that NeuroVR has launched a new website. You can check it out and sign up to their newsletter & upcoming trial. Here's the link:

https://neurovr.com

 

[Kam75]

Hi!

Here's a study on the use of Virtual Reality for managing chronic tinnitus.

According to this study, "A multilevel mixed-effects linear regression model accounting for confounding variables revealed that the mean tinnitus loudness and TFI scores reduced significantly (p=0.015 and p=0.043, respectively) after the experimental intervention compared to the control intervention. The MML differences were not statistically significant, but mean values were reduced after the experimental intervention than after the control intervention (p=0.090)."

This result sounds encouraging, but further in the study, they say that "VR can be at least as effective as CBT when managing tinnitus".

Does this mean that VR is nothing else than an habituation therapy, as assumed? What do you guys thing about it?

I'm really curious to know because as I previously said, I'm supposed to try VR at a hospital with an ENT specialist (I still don't know when this is going to happen by the way).

 

[Kam75]

Hi guys! I read another study entitled "Clinical efficacy of a patient-customized virtual reality auditory and visual system for the alleviation of tinnitus: a clinical trial in patients with chronic subjective tinnitus."

In that study I also read positive results about VR. Here is an interesting abstract:

"The THI and PSQI scores showed significant improvements, especially in the total score, grade, and functional states. The THI, which is useful for measuring tinnitus severity and predicting psychological distress, varies across individuals. The PSQI, which indicates the degree of sleep quality, was also lower after the treatment, showing that the program helped to relieve related symptoms such as insomnia induced by severe tinnitus. Therefore the VR program effectively alleviated tinnitus."​

I start to understand why my ENT specialist told me that VR "cures". Because it really seems to help tinnitus sufferers manage their symptoms. If VR helps me have a better sleep, I would be happy with that!

 

[Ela Stefan]

Hi guys! I read another study entitled "Clinical efficacy of a patient-customized virtual reality auditory and visual system for the alleviation of tinnitus: a clinical trial in patients with chronic subjective tinnitus."

In that study I also read positive results about VR. Here is an interesting abstract:

"The THI and PSQI scores showed significant improvements, especially in the total score, grade, and functional states. The THI, which is useful for measuring tinnitus severity and predicting psychological distress, varies across individuals. The PSQI, which indicates the degree of sleep quality, was also lower after the treatment, showing that the program helped to relieve related symptoms such as insomnia induced by severe tinnitus. Therefore the VR program effectively alleviated tinnitus."​

I start to understand why my ENT specialist told me that VR "cures". Because it really seems to help tinnitus sufferers manage their symptoms. If VR helps me have a better sleep, I would be happy with that!

Is there any possibility this kind of treatment could be conducted in other countries? Can you ask your doctor if doctors from other countries can be trained in it?

 

[Kam75]

Is there any possibility this kind of treatment could be conducted in other countries? Can you ask your doctor if doctors from other countries can be trained in it?

This is not yet a proper treatment. They are still doing studies to determine how best to use virtual reality to help tinnitus sufferers.

My ENT specialist said that I could be part of the protocol when it starts, provided my psychological state allows it.

The protocol will take place in Paris, that's all I know.

I have read several very encouraging studies on virtual reality applied to tinnitus. I don't know why we don't talk about it more on Tinnitus Talk.

 

[Joe Cuber]

Hi guys! I read another study entitled "Clinical efficacy of a patient-customized virtual reality auditory and visual system for the alleviation of tinnitus: a clinical trial in patients with chronic subjective tinnitus."

In that study I also read positive results about VR. Here is an interesting abstract:

"The THI and PSQI scores showed significant improvements, especially in the total score, grade, and functional states. The THI, which is useful for measuring tinnitus severity and predicting psychological distress, varies across individuals. The PSQI, which indicates the degree of sleep quality, was also lower after the treatment, showing that the program helped to relieve related symptoms such as insomnia induced by severe tinnitus. Therefore the VR program effectively alleviated tinnitus."​

I start to understand why my ENT specialist told me that VR "cures". Because it really seems to help tinnitus sufferers manage their symptoms. If VR helps me have a better sleep, I would be happy with that!

Here's a link to that study VR study:

Clinical efficacy of a patient-customized virtual reality auditory and visual system for the alleviation of tinnitus: a clinical trial in patients with chronic subjective tinnitus

This is interesting:

The treatment was proceeded with VR game of trashing of the tinnitus avatar in VR. We expected the patients would have the subjective feeling of controlling tinnitus through our cognitive behavior treatment. The VR environment comprised four different sessions in four different settings: a bedroom, a living room, a restaurant, and a city street.

 

[DimLeb]

This is interesting:

This is a joke, right? You're supposed to play a video game where the enemy you're beating is your tinnitus and that somehow "improves" your symptoms. Ok, better play a good horror game in VR and you'll forget about tinnitus and everything altogether.

How long before these "researchers" realise that people don't want any more CBT and similar "treatments", but real medical treatments instead...

 

[Kam75]

This is a joke, right? You're supposed to play a video game where the enemy you're beating is your tinnitus and that somehow "improves" your symptoms. Ok, better play a good horror game in VR and you'll forget about tinnitus and everything altogether.

How long before these "researchers" realise that people don't want any more CBT and similar "treatments", but real medical treatments instead...

There will NEVER be a "real medical treatment" for tinnitus. Even a French tinnitus specialist said that this would be a "miracle".

When a doctor talks about miracles, that says a lot...

VR treatment could at least in best cases suppress symptoms linked to tinnitus such as insomnia.

 

[KoolKat]

This is a joke, right? You're supposed to play a video game where the enemy you're beating is your tinnitus and that somehow "improves" your symptoms. Ok, better play a good horror game in VR and you'll forget about tinnitus and everything altogether.

How long before these "researchers" realise that people don't want any more CBT and similar "treatments", but real medical treatments instead...

Can't wait for the DAY 1 White Noise DLC Pack

Also, anybody else getting the TRT Season Pass? Can't ever get enough of that stuff

 

[Gb3]

There will NEVER be a "real medical treatment" for tinnitus. Even a French tinnitus specialist said that this would be a "miracle".

When a doctor talks about miracles, that says a lot...

So why are you viewing treatments right now?

 

[Walker123]

I'm sorry to say, but so far this "treatment" sounds like BS.

But maybe I'm wrong. I'll check this topic out again in a year or so to see what the developments are.

 

[Kam75]

I'm sorry to say, but so far this "treatment" sounds like BS.

But maybe I'm wrong. I'll check this topic out again in a year or so to see what the developments are.

"A multilevel mixed-effects linear regression model accounting for confounding variables revealed that the mean tinnitus loudness and TFI scores reduced significantly (p=0.015 and p=0.043, respectively) after the experimental intervention compared to the control intervention. The MML differences were not statistically significant, but mean values were reduced after the experimental intervention than after the control intervention (p=0.090)."​

What do you find BS in this result?

Read other studies; they all say that VR does help tinnitus sufferers.

So why are you viewing treatments right now?

I meant that there will NEVER be a magic medical pill that will completely eliminate tinnitus. But VR could at least be a good treatment to alleviate our tinnitus symptoms. That's what the results say.

 

[Walker123]

What do you find BS in this result?

Read other studies; they all say that VR does help tinnitus sufferers.

We'll see. That's why I said that I'll check the developments on this in about a year.

I am not so easily convinced by a bunch of numbers. If it really helps then it will be world news soon. (But I don't think that will happen, sorry).

 

[Kam75]

We'll see. That's why I said that I'll check the developments on this in about a year.

I am not so easily convinced by a bunch of numbers. If it really helps then it will be world news soon. (But I don't think that will happen, sorry).

The reason why the media is not talking about it yet is because it is a brand new -potential- treatment that is still being studied.

Also, in general, I have the impression that the media doesn't care about tinnitus. I read the news absolutely every day and I never see any articles about tinnitus or maybe one every three years (no kidding).

So it doesn't surprise me. How many articles have appeared in the press about Susan Shore's device? Very few, yet her device seems to have good results.

Anyway, time will tell as they say.

 

[Ultra]

There is a tinnitus specialist in Paris who proposes to treat tinnitus with virtual reality (he is a well-known specialist who has already been quoted on Tinnitus Talk and has participated in many conferences).

When I asked him if virtual reality really cures tinnitus, he said yes.

Is it Dr. G. Fain?

 

[Fields]

I received an e-mail today, stating that they're looking for 50 participants to participate in their upcoming trial that's being held between 31 October - 4 November.

If I find the time, I'll try to translate the e-mail later.

 

[Kam75]

Is it Dr. G. Fain?

Sorry for the late answer. No, it is not him. But I consulted Dr. G. Fain first. His strategy to try to reduce his patient's tinnitus consists of prescribing 5 different types of anti-epilectics. Of course none of them worked, at least for me.

I received an e-mail today, stating that they're looking for 50 participants to participate in their upcoming trial that's being held between 31 October - 4 November.

If I find the time, I'll try to translate the e-mail later.

You are very lucky! I read other articles on VR to treat tinnitus. All say that VR seems to be a promising therapy, but that it still needs to be tested more thoroughly.

 

[Nick47]

His strategy to try to reduce his patient's tinnitus consists of prescribing 5 different types of anti-epilecti

Which 5?

 

[Kam75]

Which 5?

- Gabapentin
- Carbamazepine
- Depakine
- Lamotrigine
- Pregabaline

I tried all of them, to no avail.

 

[Ela Stefan]

- Gabapentin
- Carbamazepine
- Depakine
- Lamotrigine
- Pregabaline

I tried all of them, to no avail.

You took them all at the same time?

 

[Kam75]

You took them all at the same time?

Of course not! I had to try each of them for about 2-3 weeks each time, then switch to another if it didn't work.

It is important to mention, if you happen to try this protocol, that I had to take these drugs at a very low dose (not at epileptic sufferer dose).