New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

[AfroSnowman]

Yes it's fascinating that my tinnitus reduced by 15 dB. I really don't think that it calmed down naturally. I've had it for 30 years and it's been off the charts severe for 20 years. It's a miracle this happened, but it did not provide relief.

I got tinnitus from loud noise exposure, playing in bands and going to see concerts. It got worse I think when I started taking psych meds to deal with the noise I was experiencing. Those meds were ototoxic and that's what I think sent the tinnitus into an extremely severe state.

I've never had any improvement in my tinnitus that occurred "naturally" in the course of my having tinnitus for over 30 years. The fact that I was actively using the MicroTransponder for 9 hours a day and going up to Buffalo to have my hearing and tinnitus tested and that was the only time in 30 years I've ever had any improvement in this condition tells me all I need to know about what caused the reduction! I have no doubt whatsoever that the MicroTransponder is what caused the reduction in my tinnitus.

But no relief? Care to conjecture why such a substantial improvement didn't really help.

 

[GlennS]

I've had my tinnitus tested as recently as a year ago, and the masking levels were the same as after I'd had the reduction in masking levels up in Buffalo. Thank you, yes I am still disappointed that I never experienced relief despite the reduction of 15 dB in my masking levels.

15 dB is still classified as no relief? This report of permanent alteration is why it's so maddening the mixed messaging on whether neuromodulation lasts or requires lifetime treatments.

 

[Piney]

But no relief? Care to conjecture why such a substantial improvement didn't really help.

Because 65 dB is extremely loud. The same as my shower fan. I measured my own tinnitus to it and it matched. So at 50 dB his is still loud.

 

[ColinUK]

Personally I wouldn't care if I needed to plug myself in for a few hours a day. If anything works that's not surgical and doesn't have substantial risk of worsening, then it's a win. I'll take a pill, get an injection, be electrocuted, whatever.

 

[dj_newark]

15 dB is still classified as no relief? This report of permanent alteration is why it's so maddening the mixed messaging on whether neuromodulation lasts or requires lifetime treatments.

Classified by me. What I'm saying that subjectively, I felt no relief from the 15 dB reduction that was measured at the University of Buffalo.

But no relief? Care to conjecture why such a substantial improvement didn't really help.

Because even after the 15 dB reduction, my tinnitus was still REALLY FUCKING LOUD!!! That's why I didn't get any relief. LOL.

However, the audiologists at the University of Buffalo definitely measured a 15 dB reduction in my masking levels. They had remained completely consistent over the course of the year and a half I had been going there before the reduction in tinnitus volume was measured. I was still suffering badly after the reduction because my tinnitus has been very severe for decades!

Because 65 dB is extremely loud. The same as my shower fan. I measured my own tinnitus to it and it matched. So at 50 dB his is still loud.

Yes!!! That is precisely why a 15 dB reduction in my tinnitus volume didn't give me any relief. You can't live a normal life with 50 dB of grating, screeching sound in your head!

 

[AfroSnowman]

Because even after the 15 dB reduction, my tinnitus was still REALLY FUCKING LOUD!!! That's why I didn't get any relief. LOL.

For the record, I have very significant tinnitus as well so I can empathize.

So in your experience a critical threshold needs to be crossed before relief can be experienced? From what I understand (and I don't claim to understand much) a 15 dB reduction should be greater than 50% reduction in volume, but that level still elicits essentially the same pain as the previous higher MML, right? Could you tell that it was quieter even if it was equally distressing?

 

[dj_newark]

For the record, I have very significant tinnitus as well so I can empathize.

So in your experience a critical threshold needs to be crossed before relief can be experienced? From what I understand (and I don't claim to understand much) a 15 dB reduction should be greater than 50% reduction in volume, but that level still elicits essentially the same pain as the previous higher MML, right? Could you tell that it was quieter even if it was equally distressing?

It's difficult to say. I never experienced it as quieter even though the volume was reduced by 15 dB. It went from 65 dB to 50 dB - that's not a 50% reduction! It's a very subjective experience to gauge and I was still suffering with 50 dB of loud, screeching, grating sound in my head. Yes, it sill elicited the same level of pain as the previous MML level.

 

[kingsfan]

I don't really feel that measuring volume from a masking sound is all that accurate. I can play my tinnitus tone at a much lower volume than I perceive it and it will mask it.

 

[CRGC]

Maybe I'm being overoptimistic but @dj_newark's story and the talk in the University of Minnesota thread are giving me hope for the Dr. Shore device / bimodal stimulation as a successful tinnitus treatment.

 

[ajc]

It went from 65 dB to 50 dB - that's not a 50% reduction!

Decibel is a logarithmic scale, the 15 dB drop was significant and if that had truly happened, you would have noticed it.

 

[dj_newark]

Decibel is a logarithmic scale, the 15 dB drop was significant and if that had truly happened, you would have noticed it.

I disagree, and I don't think you'd know what I should and should not have noticed. I think it's because of the intensity of my tinnitus that I didn't realize any benefit. There are sounds in my head that are constant, some that are fluctuating, and I experience periods of spikes.

Measuring masking levels for tinnitus is subjective by nature. The Bionics Institute in Australia is coming up with a way to objectively measure tinnitus. My feeling is that it'll only be when that technology is available that we'll have a clear idea with what's going on with anyone's tinnitus. It will also be an incredible benefit to researchers who are trying to actually reduce the volume we experience.

That being said, they did measure a 15 dB drop in my tinnitus at the University of Buffalo, but I never experienced any benefit because of how severe and intense my tinnitus normally is.

 

[InNeedOfHelp]

I think we might have some trial results coming up early December...

Palm Springs Hearing Seminars

3rd of December:

1-2 pm: Eagleman - Neosensory Science and Technology Overview: A haptic approach to bimodal stimulation for tinnitus management

2-3 pm: Shore - Title: Michigan Tinnitus Device: Improving treatment for patients with tinnitus

Acousia Therapeutics and Decibel Therapeutics are also presenting.

It can be followed online against a fee. Streaming is available.

/enough of my compulsive digging for updates.

 

[Nick47]

I think we might have some trial results coming up early December...

I'm not sure any results will be announced until the paper is written, peer reviewed and published. It's a good find though all the same.

I expect she will just go through her research, recap her approach and Phase 1 results.

 

[InNeedOfHelp]

I expect she will just go through her research, recap her approach and Phase 1 results.

Nope. It would be very unlikely because there are two separate sessions:

On day 1, 10-11 am: Shore - Altering Plasticity in a Brain-stem Circuit to Treat Tinnitus in Guinea Pigs and Humans.

On day 2, 2-3 pm: Michigan Tinnitus Device: Improving treatment for patients with tinnitus.

To add, see the attachment on the website with bio and abstract of what is to be presented:

This lecture will introduce the audience to the MTD (Michigan Tinnitus Device) and present preliminary data of its effectiveness in treating tinnitus. The target audience are hearing healthcare professionals (i.e. hearing instrument specialists, dispensing otolaryngologists, audiologists, students in related fields, etc.).

Not trying to start a hype train but do you think she would present an hour on the MTD (that seems to be the name of the device) on how her Phase 2 trial failed? It clearly states preliminary data. That means new, early data. This is the first positive signal we have in my opinion.

 

[Erik.Swe]

I'm not sure any results will be announced until the paper is written, peer reviewed and published. It's a good find though all the same.

I expect she will just go through her research, recap her approach and Phase 1 results.

I don't think she would have the presentation if the results were bad? Because even if the paper isn't written yet, she might know what the results look like by then. It would be really strange if she has a presentation, promoting the device, if the results are bad?

 

[Nick47]

I don't think she would have the presentation if the results were bad? Because even if the paper isn't written yet, she might know what the results look like by then. It would be really strange if she has a presentation, promoting the device, if the results are bad?

I agree this indicates some level of expected or realised success. It will only take a few weeks to put the data into SPSS and press enter.

 

[ajc]

Not trying to start a hype train but do you think she would present an hour on the MTD (that seems to be the name of the device) on how her Phase 2 trial failed? It clearly states preliminary data. That means new, early data. This is the first positive signal we have in my opinion.

You are wrong. Preliminary data can be considered the Phase 1 data. It's preliminary, small sample size, early trial.

There won't be new Phase 2 information in her presentation. She will just go over the Phase 1 preliminary data, mark my words.

 

[InNeedOfHelp]

You are wrong. Preliminary data can be considered the Phase 1 data. It's preliminary, small sample size, early trial.

There won't be new Phase 2 information in her presentation. She will just go over the Phase 1 preliminary data, mark my words.

Sure. Absolutely.

Spread over two sessions on two different days, with a second presentation of a full hour dedicated exclusively to the MTD. I guess you already heard Dr. Shore talk an hour straight exclusively on this device recently, happens all the time. Sure thing. She will absolutely not bring efficacy to the table in that hour, six months after her Phase 2 trial concluded. She will play dumb pretending not to know the study results six months after. In the full hour she will repeat over and again what we already know about the device (we know absolutely nothing) and that she will only share preliminary results after the paper.

 

[Nick47]

Spread over two sessions on two different days, with a second presentation of a full hour dedicated exclusively to the MTD. I guess you already heard Dr. Shore talk an hour straight exclusively on this device recently, happens all the time. Sure thing. She will absolutely not bring efficacy to the table in that hour, six months after her Phase 2 trial concluded. She will play dumb pretending not to know the study results six months after. In the full hour she will repeat over and again what we already know about the device (we know absolutely nothing) and that she will only share preliminary results after the paper.

@InNeedOfHelp, I hope you're right. Time will tell!

 

[dj_newark]

You are wrong. Preliminary data can be considered the Phase 1 data. It's preliminary, small sample size, early trial.

There won't be new Phase 2 information in her presentation. She will just go over the Phase 1 preliminary data, mark my words.

You are wrong. I've just had this email exchange with Dr. Shore.

Hi Dr. Shore,

Will you be presenting any new information about your research at the conference you'll be speaking at in December? Or is this another recap of the work that was done in 2017?

https://palmspringshearingseminars.com/pshs-2022

Thanks,
Tim

Hi Tim,

There will be new information.

Best wishes,
Susan Shore

 

[BrysonKingMe]

You are wrong. I've just had this email exchange with Dr. Shore.

You must be the chosen one -- I've gotten the same email response both times I've emailed her.

But this is awesome and thank you.

One question I have, and no, I'm not expecting any answers right now, is will this help with tinnitus that fluctuates. I guess my tinnitus is centered around the same 11 kHz screech on bad days, but the sound changes by the minute. From electricity all over my head to a laser beam in my skull.

 

[dj_newark]

You must be the chosen one -- I've gotten the same email response both times I've emailed her.

But this is awesome and thank you.

One question I have, and no, I'm not expecting any answers right now, is will this help with tinnitus that fluctuates. I guess my tinnitus is centered around the same 11 kHz screech on bad days, but the sound changes by the minute. From electricity all over my head to a laser beam in my skull.

Thanks, I have been corresponding with her since about 2014. She doesn't give me much information, but I usually do hear from here when I email.

I am wondering about that too. I have multiple sounds in my head, and I have great difficulty determining what frequencies are there and which ones are dominant. And they seem to change. So I am also wondering how her device will work for me when it is out. I hope that it will, but I don't know.

However, you have to think that there are people in the most recent trial that were like us... with fluctuating frequencies! What I want to know is if they responded and to what degree. I doubt we'll get that much information from her presentation in December.

But what I hope this means, when she says that there will be new information presented at the conference, is that the trial data will be published by then. THAT would be phenomenal! Let's hope that's what it means! But nevertheless we will get new information at that conference even if it's not the full published data.

 

[Mentos]

That being said, they did measure a 15 dB drop in my tinnitus at the University of Buffalo, but I never experienced any benefit because of how severe and intense my tinnitus normally is.

Could it be that your hearing improved and you needed less external noise to mask your tinnitus? This would explain why subjectively you perceived no difference in the loudness of your tinnitus, while MML (0 based) did reduce.

 

[dj_newark]

Could it be that your hearing improved and you needed less external noise to mask your tinnitus? This would explain why subjectively you perceived no difference in the loudness of your tinnitus, while MML (0 based) did reduce.

No. How does hearing improve? It doesn't unless you're talking about clearing wax out of your ears. Hearing doesn't improve by itself.

It did take 15 dB less masking to mask my tinnitus which is how they measured the drop. The audiologists at the University of Buffalo that performed the masking tests are well trained and competent.

 

[CRGC]

I think we might have some trial results coming up early December...

Palm Springs Hearing Seminars

I just noticed remote attendance is possible. Cost is $100. Is anyone on here planning to attend?

Palm Springs Hearing Seminars - Registration Page

 

[dj_newark]

I just noticed remote attendance is possible. Cost is $100. Is anyone on here planning to attend?

I'd like to attend virtually. But apparently you need to be a licensed audiologist in order to register.

So unless you are on familiar terms with an audiologist who would let you use their license number to register, or unless you had a way of faking the audiologist's license number, you can't register!

Those asterisks next to the places you enter information mean they are mandatory entries! You can't register unless you input this information!

 

[CRGC]

I'd like to attend virtually. But apparently you need to be a licensed audiologist in order to register.

So unless you are on familiar terms with an audiologist who would let you use their license number to register, or unless you had a way of faking the audiologist's license number, you can't register!

View attachment 51586

Those asterisks next to the places you enter information mean they are mandatory entries! You can't register unless you input this information!

Here is a link to the registration page for other interest parties. It can also be found at the bottom of the main registration page.

 

[Padraigh Griffin]

Trying to figure out the commercialisation strategy here.

Basically Auricle is a company set up to commercialise Dr. Shore's work BUT:

1.) Is it just a company that intends to licence out the technology.
2.) Is it a company set up to handle all aspects of manufacture to distribution.

My thoughts are that it is 1.

Let's look at the basics.

The device is a simple device and manufacturing will be outsourced.

Who then will handle the distribution and promotion?

If it is a licensee, then it is quite possible we could see the device roll out much faster.

Plus, jurisdictions like the EU could see the device first if there is an agreement in place.

From Dr. Shore's perspective, surely building a company and rapid rollout will need significant capital, whereas Auricle as the licensing vehicle, will need to only handle manufacturing (outsourced) and enjoy revenue from two prime sources with limited capital investment: Revenue from device sale % and royalty payments.

This is my vision for commercialisation.

For example, in the EU, why would a company like Neuromod not cull its own device (Lenire) and license the MTD if it shows excellent results.

Neuromod has everything in place, marketing, brand, distribution.

Auricle potentially has what Lenire doesn't. A product that works!

 

[Nick47]

Taken from a report on the Phase 1 study.

The U-M device delivers sounds matched to the loudness and pitch of the phantom sounds that each patient hears. It also delivers mild electrical impulses applied to the area of the head involved in the patients' own tinnitus-altering maneuvers.

Ok, I get the pitch matching. When the article mentions the electrical impulses applied to the 'area' of the head involved in tinnitus modulating, this seems vague.

For instance if turning the head to look up increases the loudness and pitch, how would you determine where on the neck to place the electrodes?

If yawning increases the pitch, where would you place electrodes?

I presume from descriptions they would locate the nerves. Would need a well trained audiologist that's for sure with patients coming in with different somatic forms of tinnitus.

 

[InNeedOfHelp]

Trying to figure out the commercialisation strategy here.

Basically Auricle is a company set up to commercialise Dr. Shore's work BUT:

1.) Is it just a company that intends to licence out the technology.
2.) Is it a company set up to handle all aspects of manufacture to distribution.

My thoughts are that it is 1.

Let's look at the basics.

The device is a simple device and manufacturing will be outsourced.

Who then will handle the distribution and promotion?

If it is a licensee, then it is quite possible we could see the device roll out much faster.

Plus, jurisdictions like the EU could see the device first if there is an agreement in place.

From Dr. Shore's perspective, surely building a company and rapid rollout will need significant capital, whereas Auricle as the licensing vehicle, will need to only handle manufacturing (outsourced) and enjoy revenue from two prime sources with limited capital investment: Revenue from device sale % and royalty payments.

This is my vision for commercialisation.

For example, in the EU, why would a company like Neuromod not cull its own device (Lenire) and license the MTD if it shows excellent results.

Neuromod has everything in place, marketing, brand, distribution.

Auricle potentially has what Lenire doesn't. A product that works!

https://innovation.medicine.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Shore-flyer-1.pdf

This flyer shows the development and commercialization strategy. Here it clearly states "launch strategy to be determined by licensee". My bet is that the name Auricle will be nowhere near the actual device.