Member@Markku, amazing. Thank you! I look forward to hearing your report.We will be in attendance and a report will follow after.
New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing
- Thread starter Hudson
- Start date
The technique they are working on doesn't have as much to do with your ears as your brain. They are training your brain, that's where the tinnitus is. So it wouldn't matter that they are only using one earphone.
Hi @dj_newark, I really don't know. Is there a dorsal cochlear nucleus for each ear? I thought there was. Is the DCN part of the inner ear or brain?
I suppose I can annoy @linearb and ask him if he wore it in one ear and it helped both. I don't even know if his tinnitus is bilateral. He probably gets fed up with all the questions as he's the only member here to have participated in the clinical trial :-/
Yes there is a DCN for each ear. I honestly don't know either if it wouldn't matter to have only one earphone that you use. So maybe I shouldn't guess. I think the only way to really know is to ask someone like @linearb or even ask Dr. Shore herself? Maybe I will do that.
Also, the DCN is part of the brain, not the ear. But the signals from the ear go to the DCN where the sounds are processed. I think that's the case, though I don't have the most clear understanding. Having said that, I do know that the DCN is part of the brain and not the ear.
I was not sure whether to put this in another thread. I opted for this.
27 minutes 10 seconds in, the Professor mentions tinnitus and, more specifically, about Professor Susan Shore, her device and both clinical trials.
27 minutes 10 seconds in, the Professor mentions tinnitus and, more specifically, about Professor Susan Shore, her device and both clinical trials.
UHPTS
Member
- Jan 28, 2020
- 196
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2019
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Taking drugs on penile fracture
- Jul 16, 2019
- 89
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Unknow. Maybe stress?
The lecturer assumes one more year until commercialization. Did I understand this correctly?
- Jul 8, 2019
- 1,140
- Tinnitus Since
- 1991
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Loud Music / family history
Some interesting comments there, but I'm not sure I agree with Corfas's statement that Susan Shore has identified the basic mechanisms driving the formation of tinnitus.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that until researchers can answer why some people with hearing loss get tinnitus whilst others don't, we're missing the biggest part of the puzzle.
Having said that, if her sticking plaster device thing provides a degree of lasting calm, I'll take it any day of the week.
AfroSnowman
Member
- Jul 23, 2019
- 1,071
- Tinnitus Since
- 04/2019
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Nonnatural energy source
I thought her explanation was: "The brain, and specifically the region of the brainstem called the dorsal cochlear nucleus, is the root of tinnitus," says Susan Shore, the U-M Medical School professor leading the research team. "When the main neurons in this region, called fusiform cells, become hyperactive and synchronize with one another, the phantom signal is transmitted into other centers where perception occurs. If we can stop these signals, we can stop tinnitus. That is what our approach attempts to do."
I mean all this stuff is above my head, but I guess some folks without hearing loss due to trauma or genetics start getting hyperactive fusiform cell that synchronize and gets stuck in that pattern.
- Sep 8, 2022
- 50
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2020
- Cause of Tinnitus
- loud noise/construction
I wonder what goes into commercializing this? Training for audiologists/ENTs? Production of the machine? How much to skip the queue?
What if these subjects have hidden hearing loss? For example, I have a dip as narrow as about 940-980 Hz, with a tinnitus tone at 990 Hz.
If one animal trial and two human trials produce significant improvement in a significant percentage of people over the sham, we know Dr. Shore has identified a major cause. She's really going for the 1st part of the basin where the signalling starts after NIHL, whether picked up on an audiogram or not.
- Dec 18, 2015
- 618
- 45
- Tinnitus Since
- 03/2015
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Noise induced, loud rock concert
- Jul 8, 2019
- 1,140
- Tinnitus Since
- 1991
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Loud Music / family history
I can just about tolerate and absorb the average tinnitus research paper. The one I found most fascinating though and changed my entire way of thinking, is Rauschecker's 2010 paper, Tuning Out the Noise: Limbic-Auditory Interactions in Tinnitus.
In that paper he began to talk in terms of stuff I have a basic (semi-educational level) understanding of. Fundamentally, it's the statement - It appears that, in addition to changes in auditory pathways, a "switch" exists elsewhere in the brain that can turn the tinnitus sensation on or off - that changed the entire way I think about tinnitus.
As far back as 1941, Nobel Prize winner Albert Szent-Gyorgi proposed the idea that biological matter behaves like semiconductors. So Rauschecker's statement that the involvement of an upstream (of the cochlear) switching circuit that can switch, gate, or indeed filter aberrant electrical activity within the auditory pathways in and out of our consciousness, i.e. the tinnitus percept, tweaked more than a passing interest when I first read it.
What I like most about this theory is that it cares little to nothing for the cause of the aberrant activity that could be as much a result of a neurological condition like Parkinson's or even stress/depression as it could misfiring synapses due to hair-cell death/loss. Moreover it proposes that the cause of tinnitus is not due to these various hyperactivity that could be happening in various pathways of every person on the planet that doesn't perceive tinnitus; the actual cause is a fault upstream in the gating circuits.
Whether Rauschecker is right or wrong what we have in the meantime is treatments. At a basic level electrically modulating errant electrical activity is a perfectly rational approach to driving a system into a more quiescent state. So in that respect I'm a big fan. And although I fundamentally do not believe Dr. Susan Shore is treating the cause of tinnitus, I do actually believe her device may have the potential to ameliorate the tinnitus percept. As I've stated many times before on these forums, as a 30-year veteran of tinnitus, if I could calm mine to its 2017 levels, I would consider that a cure.
Yes I think Dr. Rauschecker can be right. Actually Dr. Steve Cheung in the United States talks about the same thing, somatosensory tinnitus in young people with normal hearing. He found out a person with tinnitus who underwent Deep Brain Surgery for Parkinson's also had their tinnitus quiet down.
It was related to limbic-auditory connection which was altered by chance with the Deep Brain Surgery.
He conducts a clinical trial in the United States where he modulates the Nucleus Accumbens area through Deep Brain Surgery. Yes, so there can be a fault upstream in the gating circuits like you said, which can generate tinnitus more or less connected to the cochlear damage.
I'm starting to think from my reading that tinnitus is more likely a result of sudden hearing loss or acoustic trauma. Gradual age-related hearing loss or gradual noise-induced hearing loss probably doesn't cause enough disturbance to trigger hyperactivity in 'most' people. We see a lot of tinnitus with viral causes like Meniere's/Labyrinthitis/Vestibular Neuritis or ototoxicity. It seems a sudden threshold shift causes the maladaptive response whereas someone getting older working in an 85 dB factory every day loses hearing so gradually that the brain adapts without the phantom noise. Thoughts?
True!
How do you know your tinnitus is virus related? Did you do tests, lost hearing suddenly or antiviral medication helped your hearing and tinnitus?
- Feb 11, 2019
- 801
- Tinnitus Since
- 01/2014
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Headcold/Flu
My wife has 30% hearing loss with no tinnitus; her loss of hearing was, however, gradual over a period of years with no sudden trauma.
Most probably a viral particle irritated my Aural Nerve, and this sudden tissue damage caused the brain to "freak out" and activate the tinnitus. I recall that the tinnitus went on as quickly as if you flipped a light switch.
It is unfortunate that in so many instances the brain permanently retains this neuronal misfiring.
The most unfortunate aspect of this is that the brain seems to fight to retain this sound.
Why? One theory is that the cells that registered the now lost frequencies will die without activation, so the brain itself produces that level of sound to keep them alive.
Let's see if Dr. Shore's device "jump starts" these fusiform cells such that their hysterical, overamped behavior is normalized.
- Jul 8, 2019
- 1,140
- Tinnitus Since
- 1991
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Loud Music / family history
I wouldn't tend to agree or disagree to be honest. There are a lot of theories out there but I think the thing that scientists (and engineers in fact) really need to do at this point is develop new systems that can objectively test the theories out and either prove or disprove them. This is why I'm so fundamentally against psychological self-reporting like THI (for example).
- Jul 8, 2019
- 1,140
- Tinnitus Since
- 1991
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Loud Music / family history
I have thought that DBS is probably on the right track, however, the process of drilling into the skull and poking around just seems so damn medieval.
If Rauschecker's switched gating theory is correct, and if (as I theorise) the underlying cause is a genetic mis-description within that circuit at the component level, then researchers should easily be able to test that theory out using AI and a Biobank.
At this point in time I fundamentally believe the *cure* will come at the genetic level with gene-editing or targetted genetic medicine. In the meantime I await with bated breath the results of Dr. Shore's latest study. Let's hope she can throw us a lifeline.
No we don't. But Dr. Shore has confirmed that she will be presenting new information at the Palm Springs Hearing Seminar conference on December 2-3. That means that she will be talking about the recent trial that just concluded this year. It might also mean that she expects to be published by then. I can't imagine her speaking extensively about the device unless the work they've done has been published in a scientific journal. Because she is so straight laced and proper. So I think there's a good chance the results from the trial will be published by then. Fingers crossed!
God! I really wish I had faith. I have some but they move so slow. Yes medieval, but who can wait even 10 years for a gene therapy to come available? I just don't have that time.
I've been mostly silent in this thread, but obviously been following it closely.
I'm still wondering how patients will know what the optimal position for the electrodes will be. Neck, chin, face? How is this defined?
I read somewhere that the position of the electrodes will be optimal in the location where people can manipulate their tinnitus, but I guess only a very small portion of people actually have a way to manipulate their tinnitus in a significant way.
I mean, sure, my high frequency (I also have a low frequency hum) tinnitus becomes louder when I clench my jaw hard, but I wonder how on earth my tinnitus would go silent by sending current through my jaw.
Also - what will be the sound that will play through the headset if I have low and high frequency tinnitus? Many people have different tones.
I guess I'm more anticipating medication, in stead of electrodes in combination with sound. The latter seems like it has been tried and tested before, maybe not 100% in the way Dr. Shore is trying to approach it, but still - related techniques have been tried (and failed) before.
Obviously I hope Dr. Shore's device will work, I would fly to the US from Europe to get the treatment, but I'm hesitant.
I'm still wondering how patients will know what the optimal position for the electrodes will be. Neck, chin, face? How is this defined?
I read somewhere that the position of the electrodes will be optimal in the location where people can manipulate their tinnitus, but I guess only a very small portion of people actually have a way to manipulate their tinnitus in a significant way.
I mean, sure, my high frequency (I also have a low frequency hum) tinnitus becomes louder when I clench my jaw hard, but I wonder how on earth my tinnitus would go silent by sending current through my jaw.
Also - what will be the sound that will play through the headset if I have low and high frequency tinnitus? Many people have different tones.
I guess I'm more anticipating medication, in stead of electrodes in combination with sound. The latter seems like it has been tried and tested before, maybe not 100% in the way Dr. Shore is trying to approach it, but still - related techniques have been tried (and failed) before.
Obviously I hope Dr. Shore's device will work, I would fly to the US from Europe to get the treatment, but I'm hesitant.
My understanding is that the opposite is true - that the majority of people with tinnitus can significantly manipulate their tinnitus. Dr. Levine for example says 80 percent of people with tinnitus can modulate their tinnitus.
In my own personal case, I know I can - if I move my jaw in a certain way, my tinnitus gets exponentially louder (and the baseline is already pretty awful, so being able to make it temporarily even worse helps me understand what others who have worse baseline tinnitus are struggling with).
Link to Dr. Levine's PubMed paper:
Evidence for a tinnitus subgroup responsive to somatosensory based treatment modalities
I think the training and skills of the audiologists will be key, and well, I will leave it there...
Yes, I have a broadband white noise which fizzes, hisses and rings at various times. Also, how do they determine the frequency that's causing it? It could be multiple frequencies?
I can make my beeping tinnitus louder too by clenching my jaw, but I have no idea how much of that is just tendon-tension I hear, or my ear canal "opening" up more so everything sounds louder/more hollow, or... any other mechanical reason.
I know there is a debate about tinnitus being "broadcasted" from the brain, so I have a hard time understanding how me clenching my jaw would trigger my brain to produce louder tinnitus?
I'm sure my logic is off, but I'm having a hard time understanding.
I do however understand DBS, where they go deep into the brain to shock the overactive neurons that are firing erratically, not superficially on the chin/neck/face wherever we can modulate. I'm not a religious man, but I pray to god I am wrong and Susan Shore is right... I mean, she must be on to SOMETHING after 20 years and millions of dollars R&D, no?
You might have to wait 10 years even for the medieval stuff to become available. Don't take it from me, take it from this guy:
