New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

[pinklights98]

The physician wants me to get an MRI before I start the trial. I never had an MRI done before. Should I get it done?

MRIs are loud, I would avoid it.

 

[AfroSnowman]

Should I get it done?

I did an MRI and it didn't bother me.

 

[GoatSheep]

The physician wants me to get an MRI before I start the trial. I never had an MRI done before. Should I get it done?

Have you expressed your concerns about the MRI to them? I don't know much about the quieter MRI machines but there are threads on it. You could ask them what machine they are using and probably find info on the model here in a thread.

Hard choice, but I'm sure they want to rule out physiological causes like neuroma.

 

[MRItechssuck]

I got an MRI and it gave me tinnitus again after 15 years. I learned a lot due to my incompetent technician.
Some say the bone can conduct the noise as well, I would ask mich.edu if denying the MRI would exclude you from the study.

Don't trust your technician... make sure you have an emergency call button.
Bring your own hearing muffs and highest rated earplugs. Muffs can't have metal so find ones with a rubber headband.
Do a search, some models of MRIs are quieter than others... someone actually listed them on this site somewhere.
Open MRIs may be a little more quiet.

The muffs they give you serve no purpose for protection... it is just a communication device. You'd be better off using high rated earplugs and muffs, and just use the emergency button if you need help. Having the tech tell you "10 minutes to go" is worthless versus damaging your hearing.

 

[hurtingdream]

Have you expressed your concerns about the MRI to them? I don't know much about the quieter MRI machines but there are threads on it. You could ask them what machine they are using and probably find info on the model here in a thread.

Hard choice, but I'm sure they want to rule out physiological causes like neuroma.

I did tell him that I am concerned about how loud an MRI machine is. He told me I can do the open MRI machine. The machine is Oasis.

 

[hurtingdream]

I got an MRI and it gave me tinnitus again after 15 years. I learned a lot due to my incompetent technician.
Some say the bone can conduct the noise as well, I would ask mich.edu if denying the MRI would exclude you from the study.

Don't trust your technician... make sure you have an emergency call button.
Bring your own hearing muffs and highest rated earplugs. Muffs can't have metal so find ones with a rubber headband.
Do a search, some models of MRIs are quieter than others... someone actually listed them on this site somewhere.
Open MRIs may be a little more quiet.

The muffs they give you serve no purpose for protection... it is just a communication device. You'd be better off using high rated earplugs and muffs, and just use the emergency button if you need help. Having the tech tell you "10 minutes to go" is worthless versus damaging your hearing.

If I deny the MRI I am excluded from the study. Thank you for the tips!

 

[GoatSheep]

I did tell him that I am concerned about how loud an MRI machine is. He told me I can do the open MRI machine. The machine is Oasis.

http://www.hitachi-medical-systems.be/products-and-services/mri/oasis-12t.html

Maybe try to contact the company and ask for decibel levels.

Says

• SoftSound™ technology for silent gradients

 

[Lucifer]

If I deny the MRI I am excluded from the study. Thank you for the tips!

Why do you even need to do an MRI anyway?

 

[ChrisBoyMonkey]

Why do you even need to do an MRI anyway?

It's probably to rule out tinnitus caused by an object like a tumor.

 

[Pre55ure]

fwiw, an MRI with appropriate hearing protection shouldn't be any worse than normal every day sounds sans hearing protection.

That being said, I would buy my own earplugs and make sure you understand how to properly use them, and practice a few times at home first. It sounds kind of stupid, but they do require a bit technique to make sure that you are using them properly. The best kind are the thick foam ones that go in the ear canal, they should have a NRR rating over 30.

I've had an MRI since developing my tinnitus and didn't have any problems.

 

[FGG]

fwiw, an MRI with appropriate hearing protection shouldn't be any worse than normal every day sounds sans hearing protection.

That being said, I would buy my own earplugs and make sure you understand how to properly use them, and practice a few times at home first. It sounds kind of stupid, but they do require a bit technique to make sure that you are using them properly. The best kind are the thick foam ones that go in the ear canal, they should have a NRR rating over 30.

I've had an MRI since developing my tinnitus and didn't have any problems.

FWIW I have had an MRIs and a CT since and neither affected my tinnitus. Mine is not noise induced however and I'm sure that's relevant.

 

[Chriscom]

@hurtingdream, Tinnitus can be so variable and unpredictable within a single person never mind different people, so it's hard to base your own decision on others' experiences. That being said, as a fellow-sufferer who also had an MRI without ill effects:

• As mentioned above, some MRI machines are noisier than others, so aim for one of the quieter ones. I imagine that open MRIs are quieter, but there are also MRI machines that are enclosed but with larger internal diameters that are quieter than the older ones. That's the type I had mine in. The nearest hospital to me (like six blocks away) couldn't verify for me what generation closed-MRI machine they had so I took them off the list and did more research. Google helped me out.
• I had earmuff/headphone type hearing protection supplied by the facility. It was noisy on occasion but for the most part not crazy. I think they inserted earplugs as well, I honestly forget. They gave me a buzzer-type control to press if it got to be too much, which I didn't use. I don't agree that it wouldn't be any worse than "normal everyday sounds" but again this depends on your own subjective experience.
• Mine was indeed done to rule out acoustic neuroma (a tumor that can form next to the auditory system) early in my diagnosis.
• fwiw my hearing loss and tinnitus was not noise-induced

 

[Paul1980]

I echo finding the lowest dB MRI you can and ask the study what they recommend. I am reading they run from 110 dB to 120 dB. 120 dB is exponentially worse. Protection would drop that to 90 dB perhaps but that is in danger zone over a 20 to 30 minute span.

I just did one in a newer machine and I regret it, it was extremely loud, and I should have gone for a CT instead. Tinnitus spiked. I used foam plugs and technician gave me pads to cover my ears. Double protection.

 

[MRItechssuck]

My machine was brand new, but only had the derpy muffs... and it was loud.

Not a usual case but I wish I had read this 2 months ago!

"Texas Woman Warns Others After Loud MRI Permanently Damages Her Ears: 'I Live a Life of Misery'"

"I feel as though I am being attacked by sound," Kathy McCain tells PEOPLE"

"She wore earplugs and protective earmuffs to dull the jarringly loud noise of the machine."

https://people.com/health/texas-woman-mri-ear-damage/


The MRI used on me...

"Orthopedics and Sports Medicine has added a large bore 1.5 T MRI magnet for our patient's convenience! We have convenient hours for all patients, Monday-Saturday. Please call to schedule an appointment."

"The MAGNETOM Espree is highly regarded in diagnostic imaging. Keep reading to learn about the technical specifications of our new MRI. It is the shortest magnet and largest diameter of it's kind.

Imaging with the MAGNETOM Espree
The First Open Bore MRI

Siemens was the first to introduce a 70-cm Open Bore 1.5T MRI system."

 

[thinlay]

Is there any news?

 

[LivingGhost371]

I've had MRIs (to rule out acoustic neuroma) and for my back and spine issues. Wearing the provided hearing protection, they did not worsen my tinnitus.

 

[ChrisBoyMonkey]

I don't think we'll be hearing much until around mid next year, I'm thinking around May. Then it will be really exciting as her trial results might start being released.

 

[mrbrightside614]

Believe me, no one wants this thing faster than I do, because like I said I used it and I know it substantially suppresses my tinnitus. If I thought the UMich people were doing anything less than everything in their power to bring me relief, I would also be quick to throw them under the bus.

I believe there is definitely a somatic component to my HF hiss. I notice that while I'm sitting up and not completely reclined, the HF hiss is often completely diminished, leaving the low frequency whirring that was more immediately present upon head-on collision and airbag deploy on June 18th. It wasn't until I woke up to the high frequency hiss on July 19th that I realized how absolutely debilitating tinnitus can be. My questions are:
1) Do you believe your cause of tinnitus is primarily somatic?
2) Do they alter the application of the device according to your symptoms, or is it uniformly applied?

I'm really hoping the latter is the case here, because I don't know what kind of qualitative information I could supply them for a more tailored approach apart from "upon extension and bearing weight."
I can't really produce the sound by merely touching on parts of my jaw/neck. But when I lay down to relax and watch something of reasonable volume I can clearly hear when the HF tinnitus picks up because I can hear it clearly above the television—after which, the panic ensues.

 

[ChrisBoyMonkey]

I believe there is definitely a somatic component to my HF hiss. I notice that while I'm sitting up and not completely reclined, the HF hiss is often completely diminished, leaving the low frequency whirring that was more immediately present upon head-on collision and airbag deploy on June 18th. It wasn't until I woke up to the high frequency hiss on July 19th that I realized how absolutely debilitating tinnitus can be. My questions are:
1) Do you believe your cause of tinnitus is primarily somatic?
2) Do they alter the application of the device according to your symptoms, or is it uniformly applied?

I'm really hoping the latter is the case here, because I don't know what kind of qualitative information I could supply them for a more tailored approach apart from "upon extension and bearing weight."
I can't really produce the sound by merely touching on parts of my jaw/neck. But when I lay down to relax and watch something of reasonable volume I can clearly hear when the HF tinnitus picks up because I can hear it clearly above the television—after which, the panic ensues.

It is the latter. The nerves her treatment targets are based on how the patient can modulate their tinnitus.

 

[mrbrightside614]

It is the latter. The nerves her treatment targets are based on how the patient can modulate their tinnitus.

So it's not uniformly applied? My phrasing made this a difficult question to answer.

 

[ChrisBoyMonkey]

So it's not uniformly applied? My phrasing made this a difficult question to answer.

Not sure. OTO-313 was just one ear.

 

[DaveFromChicago]

I was ordered by my ENT doctor to undergo an MRI.

During the test I asked myself what the point was in spending 45 minutes inside a torpedo tube with the worst heavy-metal like sound blasted into my ears (especially since I told the technicians that I was there because of tinnitus).

Three weeks and $4,000.00 afterwards, the ENT doctor called with (I'm not kidding) a nine second conversation; he said, "I didn't find anything-keep your passages clear", and hung up.
Even if he did find, for example, cilia hair/nerve /tissue damage, there would have been no method in restoring these damaged organs.

It occurred to me that from the very numerous reports of MRIs submitted on this forum, not a single one has led to any treatment that even modified this condition.

There appear to be two real motives in the routine assignment of such MRIs for tinnitus:

1) This is entirely due to the physician's satisfaction of his malpractice insurance requirements. He or she says to him/herself, "there may be a 1% chance that this tinnitus is caused by a brain tumor (although the patient exhibits virtually no other symptoms that would suggest this), and by writing a prescription for an MRI I can sleep at night knowing that there could never be a malpractice suit brought against me. If the patient decides (for the abovementioned good reasons) that such a test is irritatingly invasive and pointless, then I am still cleared since the patient went against doctor's orders."

2) These MRI stations look like something out of a Ridley Scott sci-fi movie, and as a Commercial Property Insurance Adjuster I was familiar with the mammoth costs involved in purchasing and running them. The impetus is therefore on using them as much as possible.

Also, although I cannot actually substantiate this, the manufacturers very probably keep tabs on which physician groups most frequently order these MRIs used.

Several years ago there was a lead article in the Atlantic Monthly about the huge perks that these medical supply and pharmaceutical companies throw to physicians who order the most usage.

 

[linearb]

I believe there is definitely a somatic component to my HF hiss. I notice that while I'm sitting up and not completely reclined, the HF hiss is often completely diminished, leaving the low frequency whirring that was more immediately present upon head-on collision and airbag deploy on June 18th. It wasn't until I woke up to the high frequency hiss on July 19th that I realized how absolutely debilitating tinnitus can be. My questions are:
1) Do you believe your cause of tinnitus is primarily somatic?
2) Do they alter the application of the device according to your symptoms, or is it uniformly applied?

1) no, and I also think primarily somatic tinnitus is extremely rare, while most hearing-loss or noise induced tinnitus has a somatic component. (See: work of Dr Salvi et al from University of Buffalo, as well as the YouTube video "The neural bases and neuroengineering of tinnitus").

However, what you're describing isn't really what Shore means as "somatic". Having a sort of "feeling" of tinnitus isn't "somatic"; in the case of bimodal this means that the person is able to modulate the sound (usually, make it louder or higher pitched) by moving neck muscles or clenching the jaw.

2) Yes -- but the only tailoring, at least that I am aware of at this point, is what muscle group the electrode is put on. People who can most strongly modulate their tinnitus by jutting their jaw forward (like me) got electrode placement on the cheek near the jaw; people whose most significant modulation came from their neck got the electrodes placed on the back of the neck.

I can't really produce the sound by merely touching on parts of my jaw/neck. But when I lay down to relax and watch something of reasonable volume I can clearly hear when the HF tinnitus picks up because I can hear it clearly above the television—

Hmm, this kind of sounds like it might or might not qualify; the bottom line is they think that they need to be zapping muscles whose nerve fibers have become cross-wired into audio percepts at the DCN level. Without that kind of muscle involvement I don't know what this treatment would do.

after which, the panic ensues.

In the meantime, I guess work on breaking that chain cognitively as much as possible? I'd say that pre-medication, I'd gotten to the point where I only had any kind of fear response to a sudden loud high frequency blast around 25% of the time, just through patience and meditation and time. Now that I am medicated, at my current level of impairment, I probably only react emotionally to bursts like that ~5-10% of the time (and they happen less).

Medication is dodgy and risky, but I think most people can see a significant reduction in their limbic reaction to tinnitus or pain, through patience, diligence, taking the time to understand what's known about how these systems interact with conscious percepts and feedback loops, and then doing some kind of cognitive or mind/body work. It's hardly a panacea or a cure or something that someone should invest money in, but lacking better treatment options it seems like an okay use of time to me.

 

[mrbrightside614]

1) no, and I also think primarily somatic tinnitus is extremely rare, while most hearing-loss or noise induced tinnitus has a somatic component. (See: work of Dr Salvi et al from University of Buffalo, as well as the YouTube video "The neural bases and neuroengineering of tinnitus").

However, what you're describing isn't really what Shore means as "somatic". Having a sort of "feeling" of tinnitus isn't "somatic"; in the case of bimodal this means that the person is able to modulate the sound (usually, make it louder or higher pitched) by moving neck muscles or clenching the jaw.

2) Yes -- but the only tailoring, at least that I am aware of at this point, is what muscle group the electrode is put on. People who can most strongly modulate their tinnitus by jutting their jaw forward (like me) got electrode placement on the cheek near the jaw; people whose most significant modulation came from their neck got the electrodes placed on the back of the neck.


Hmm, this kind of sounds like it might or might not qualify; the bottom line is they think that they need to be zapping muscles whose nerve fibers have become cross-wired into audio percepts at the DCN level. Without that kind of muscle involvement I don't know what this treatment would do.


In the meantime, I guess work on breaking that chain cognitively as much as possible? I'd say that pre-medication, I'd gotten to the point where I only had any kind of fear response to a sudden loud high frequency blast around 25% of the time, just through patience and meditation and time. Now that I am medicated, at my current level of impairment, I probably only react emotionally to bursts like that ~5-10% of the time (and they happen less).

Medication is dodgy and risky, but I think most people can see a significant reduction in their limbic reaction to tinnitus or pain, through patience, diligence, taking the time to understand what's known about how these systems interact with conscious percepts and feedback loops, and then doing some kind of cognitive or mind/body work. It's hardly a panacea or a cure or something that someone should invest money in, but lacking better treatment options it seems like an okay use of time to me.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I intuitively agree with you about somatic tinnitus not being a primary causative factor in developing tinnitus. Does this suggest that you believe that if the auditory components were restored within the cochlea, that this aberrant signaling would cease to provide further input?

I guess panic doesn't exactly describe my reaction. Physiologically, a constant noise of this frequency is would be objectively distressing. My heart rate doesn't pick up as much as it used to, but it's still polluting my brain in some manner.

 

[linearb]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I intuitively agree with you about somatic tinnitus not being a primary causative factor in developing tinnitus. Does this suggest that you believe that if the auditory components were restored within the cochlea, that this aberrant signaling would cease to provide further input?

Yes, and I think they think so, to. What they're doing is more or less tricking the brain into thinking input has been restored without actually doing so.

I guess panic doesn't exactly describe my reaction. Physiologically, a constant noise of this frequency is would be objectively distressing. My heart rate doesn't pick up as much as it used to, but it's still polluting my brain in some manner.

I hear where you're coming from, but when I said I don't react to it 75% of the time, I meant that I don't have a physiological reaction and I am not really distracted by it mentally any more than I would be any other random and meaningless change in environment percepts. Total extinction of that distraction may not be possible, save maybe for monks, since our brains are constantly looking for changes to figure out if they're threatening or not, but it's interesting to play with and see where the limits of our ability to self-rewire are.

 

[mrbrightside614]

Yes, and I think they think so, to. What they're doing is more or less tricking the brain into thinking input has been restored without actually doing so.

I hear where you're coming from, but when I said I don't react to it 75% of the time, I meant that I don't have a physiological reaction and I am not really distracted by it mentally any more than I would be any other random and meaningless change in environment percepts. Total extinction of that distraction may not be possible, save maybe for monks, since our brains are constantly looking for changes to figure out if they're threatening or not, but it's interesting to play with and see where the limits of our ability to self-rewire are.

1. Fucking glorious. This is so heartening to hear because my secondary somatic tinnitus is much greater a plague than what is distinctly coming from my left ear. They're both left-oriented though.

2. Rewiring—whether to reach habituation or literally physically abolish tinnitus, is certainly the answer.

 

[Chris_P]

Has anyone heard about updates from Susan Shore's study of a bimodal neuromodulation device at the University of Michigan since January 2018?

Some positive results but, according to Shore, "we need to optimize the length of treatments, identify which subgroups of patients may benefit most, and determine if this approach works in patients who have nonsomatic forms of the condition that can't be modulated by head and neck maneuvers."

Curious how electrodes placed on the neck are intended for forms influenced by head and neck movements here while the Lenire device with tongue/trigeminal nerve may address other subjective types?

 

[Piney]

It would be good to know why it's taking so long, it's a headset and electrical zapping pads.

 

[threefirefour]

It would be good to know why it's taking so long, it's a headset and electrical zapping pads.

FDA is a bitch sometimes.

 

[DaveFromChicago]

I believe it will be two years on 01/06/20 since our Chicago Tribune had a feature article on her treatment methods that implied that a considerable amount of research was already done.

I can't fathom why there has (relatively speaking) been so little progress or why Venture Capitalist Consortiums have not recognized the enormous potential and utilized their influence.