New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

[Bambam0]

Unfortunately I wouldn't be surprised if that company generated more funding than Dr. Shore's device!

Bet!

 

[Suaimhneach]

I wonder if this is a case that by putting our money into something it will increase its speed in coming to market.

I was wondering the same, plus would it allow us to "jump the queue" when it comes to launch. I'll try and back it with a few quid anyway!

 

[Gb3]

Bet!

I'm really being sarcastic but honestly only the people who suffer from tinnitus care about it.

 

[Bambam0]

I'm really being sarcastic but honestly only the people who suffer from tinnitus care about it.

Lol me too. Did you email the CEO?

 

[Suaimhneach]

Lol me too. Did you email the CEO?

The CEO's LinkedIn says he has been working with the company for the last two years. I wonder what he has been up to.

 

[Harder Calm]

Not sure if this was posted before, but here's an interesting link mostly on Lenire, and also a comparison with Shore/Auricle:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...ent-alleviates-annoying-ringing-in-the-ears1/

In particular I found that comparison is interesting, e.g.:

"You can think of it as two ways to treat tinnitus," Lim says. "One is you can try to find [the tinnitus cells] and shut them down.

Our approach is to make everything in the auditory system much more hyperactive to everything but the tinnitus."

 

[Uklawyer]

"Shut them down" or actually reset them? I prefer Susan Shore's approach.

 

[antonio77]

"You can think of it as two ways to treat tinnitus," Lim says. "One is you can try to find [the tinnitus cells] and shut them down.

Our approach is to make everything in the auditory system much more hyperactive to everything but the tinnitus."​

I prefer the 1st option. I am afraid that everything will be stimulated and, since it is not a perfect device, the tinnitus will also be stimulated. That means that with Lenire it can get worse. Better try to turn off the tinnitus cells.

 

[DimLeb]

What I understand is that it will only work for those who have a defined frequency? I mean there are a lot of people who have multiple sounds, broadband noise, hissing or tones that are just way too hard to pinpoint. So sad if that's the case...

 

[Uklawyer]

What I understand is that it will only work for those who have a defined frequency? I mean there are a lot of people who have multiple sounds, broadband noise, hissing or tones that are just way too hard to pinpoint. So sad if that's the case...

Susans Shore's device? Fuck that - it will work for everyone.

 

[DimLeb]

@Uklawyer, yes, I sure hope so! Even though I live in a European country that only god knows if and when I may get it lol.

But the whole "program the device to each patient's case" sounds like there may be issues designing the sounds to match one's specific tones. Especially when it's not just one frequency. Even I, a music producer / sound engineer for years, have a lot of difficulty recreating my multi-tone+hissing and still haven't managed.

I just can't imagine a person, not familiar with sound design, describing to an audiologist, doctor (?) precisely what their tinnitus sounds like...

 

[Gb3]

What I understand is that it will only work for those who have a defined frequency? I mean there are a lot of people who have multiple sounds, broadband noise, hissing or tones that are just way too hard to pinpoint. So sad if that's the case...

Where did you come up with that?

 

[AfroSnowman]

What I understand is that it will only work for those who have a defined frequency? I mean there are a lot of people who have multiple sounds, broadband noise, hissing or tones that are just way too hard to pinpoint. So sad if that's the case...

I don't know of course, but it would seem that as long as the portions of your audiological system that express your tinnitus can be stimulated then this should work.

 

[DimLeb]

Where did you come up with that?

Reversing Synchronized Brain Circuits With Targeted Auditory-Somatosensory Stimulation to Treat Phantom Percepts

"The auditory stimulus will be individualized based on subject baseline audiogram and tinnitus test results and is presented through a calibrated earphone."

This is what the research paper says. I may misunderstand this though, and it just means that they use a more broad range of stimulus, rather than one's exact tinnitus sounds. If anyone knows more, I'd be glad for more info!

 

[Suaimhneach]

@Uklawyer, yes, I sure hope so! Even though I live in a European country that only god knows if and when I may get it lol.

There are enough Europeans on this forum that we should probably just rent a private plane to fly over when it launches - pick me up last!

 

[Harder Calm]

"You can think of it as two ways to treat tinnitus," Lim says. "One is you can try to find [the tinnitus cells] and shut them down.

Our approach is to make everything in the auditory system much more hyperactive to everything but the tinnitus."​

I prefer the 1st option. I am afraid that everything will be stimulated and, since it is not a perfect device, the tinnitus will also be stimulated. That means that with Lenire it can get worse. Better try to turn off the tinnitus cells.

Yes, it seems a lot more like the right thing to do, even though I wonder how it works differently on a technical level! Another difference of course is jaw/neck stimulation vs. tongue. Again, it seems plausible since quite a few people seem to be able to influence it by jaw/neck movements. Well, at least I hope this approach is more refined then Lenire, which apparently got some mixed feedback...

@Uklawyer, yes, I sure hope so! Even though I live in a European country that only god knows if and when I may get it lol.

But the whole "program the device to each patient's case" sounds like there may be issues designing the sounds to match one's specific tones. Especially when it's not just one frequency. Even I, a music producer / sound engineer for years, have a lot of difficulty recreating my multi-tone+hissing and still haven't managed.

I just can't imagine a person, not familiar with sound design, describing to an audiologist, doctor (?) precisely what their tinnitus sounds like...

Yes, fully agree, I guess that's where the main challenge is. The technique of bimodal stimulation (playing tones + electrical stimulation) seems rather simple, but how it is actually done could make the difference between improving things or making things worse. But apparently they also made it work for guinea pigs, who really can't tell about their sound!

 

[DimLeb]

@Harder Calm, oh yeah you're probably right about the guinea pigs, I didn't have that in mind! Like everyone else, I don't know a lot more, so I'm trying to figure out anything I can...

 

[Gb3]

So I did have communication with the CEO, this is what he told me:

- The majority (anywhere between 60-80%) of tinnitus sufferers have somatic tinnitus and actually a lot of people don't realize they have somatic tinnitus until they are shown or instructed how to do the proper somatic maneuvers.
- He stated that this device should be safe and effective for a wide range of tinnitus sufferers.

 

[AfroSnowman]

So I did have communication with the CEO, this is what he told me:

- The majority (anywhere between 60-80%) of tinnitus sufferers have somatic tinnitus and actually a lot of people don't realize they have somatic tinnitus until they are shown or instructed how to do the proper somatic maneuvers.
- He stated that this device should be safe and effective for a wide range of tinnitus sufferers.

Has the CEO mentioned a hypothetical timeline for when it might be publicly available?

 

[Bambam0]

So I did have communication with the CEO, this is what he told me:

- The majority (anywhere between 60-80%) of tinnitus sufferers have somatic tinnitus and actually a lot of people don't realize they have somatic tinnitus until they are shown or instructed how to do the proper somatic maneuvers.
- He stated that this device should be safe and effective for a wide range of tinnitus sufferers.

Yum Yum. Did he talk about launch date at all?

 

[Gb3]

Has the CEO mentioned a hypothetical timeline for when it might be publicly available?

I did not ask. But I would assume they want to launch soon seeing Lenire is close to being launched in the US. Competition is good.

His email address is a couple of posts above. Ask him yourself if you want. The worst that can happen is he doesn't email you back. He wrote back to me in like 10 minutes.

 

[ploughna]

If it does turn out to be an improvement or enhancement over Lenire, if it were me, I'd enter into discussions on a technology licensing agreement. Neuromod have the manufacturing and logistics capability, audiologist network (soon to become global), brand recognition, solid financial backing, etc.

It'd take a new company years to get to that scale and Neuromod isn't standing still on the technology side either and I do think we'll see their offering continue to evolve/improve.

From a UoM standpoint, they get to market quicker and with much lower risk.

Of course, neither party might have interest for different reasons, but still...

 

[Paul1980]

"You can think of it as two ways to treat tinnitus," Lim says. "One is you can try to find [the tinnitus cells] and shut them down.

Our approach is to make everything in the auditory system much more hyperactive to everything but the tinnitus."​

I prefer the 1st option. I am afraid that everything will be stimulated and, since it is not a perfect device, the tinnitus will also be stimulated. That means that with Lenire it can get worse. Better try to turn off the tinnitus cells.

What if the first approach is at least 10-20 years away? If the problem is indeed that your auditory system is making up for sounds it can no longer perceive, and these devices stimulate those signals, why can't the 2nd option be a viable approach? Of course I would rather swallow a pill, if it works. I am keeping an open mind.

 

[F-u-T]

What if the first approach is at least 10-20 years away? If the problem is indeed that your auditory system is making up for sounds it can no longer perceive, and these devices stimulate those signals, why can't the 2nd option be a viable approach? Of course I would rather swallow a pill, if it works. I am keeping an open mind.

I believe the first approach is how Shore's device works. It's in all reality 1-3 years before available for consumers.

 

[Padraigh Griffin]

If it does turn out to be an improvement or enhancement over Lenire, if it were me, I'd enter into discussions on a technology licensing agreement. Neuromod have the manufacturing and logistics capability, audiologist network (soon to become global), brand recognition, solid financial backing, etc.

It'd take a new company years to get to that scale and Neuromod isn't standing still on the technology side either and I do think we'll see their offering continue to evolve/improve.

From a UoM standpoint, they get to market quicker and with much lower risk.

Of course, neither party might have interest for different reasons, but still...

I think this is a completely logical move for both parties, particularly if the Michigan product is superior to Lenire. Completes the marketing mix.

 

[Mathew Gould]

Did Susan Shore's group post the data for the trial they did with the few hundred people?

 

[Bambam0]

It's in all reality 1-3 years before available for consumers.

It's probably good to temper expectations but I bet it's on the shorter end of that time frame. Typically when studies end is also when funding ends - meaning they need to have commercialization funding secured well ahead of time. Given the study is supposedly ending May/2022 it makes sense for them to ramp up fundraising right now.

What I don't know is how you raise funding off of a study that isn't completed. Like how do they know this is worth their time? Is it based off of first trial? Do they get some sort of mid-pivotal trial update? Maybe an early cohort completed the study already and the news was good?

 

[Uklawyer]

I wonder how many people on this forum would help raise finance for the commercialisation of Susan Shore's device, if required, and what sum we would get to.

I am sure that previous/current funders will be following the trial closely and would be ready to make further investment if the outcome were positive.

I didn't realise the trial goes to May 2022. I was hoping they'd get the results really soon and move forward. Like my audiologist told me: "You have to be patient".

 

[AfroSnowman]

Grrrr. I had it in my mind that the study end date was end of 2021.

 

[ColinUK]

Surely they must have some idea of how the thing is performing in the trial. I mean the launch of the company etc. would be pretty poorly timed if the trial results were total flop?