New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

[ajc]

No, are you not familiar with Dr. Lim's work at the University of Minnesota? The current Lenire is a joke. The next version based on his work will be game changing.

Nothing whatsoever suggests Dr. Lim's work will be game changing. There was one (!) positive anecdote posted about it years ago and that's it. Get real.

The fact that he joined Neuromod makes him uninteresting. He cares about money, not about effective treatments. He's a puppet.

 

[dj_newark]

Nothing whatsoever suggests Dr. Lim's work will be game changing. There was one (!) positive anecdote posted about it years ago and that's it. Get real.

The fact that he joined Neuromod makes him uninteresting. He cares about money, not about effective treatments. He's a puppet.

I think that Dr. Lim's device curing @kelpiemsp's 80 dB tinnitus and curing visual snow at the same time and having the effects last for years is significant. He's checked into Tinnitus Talk not that long ago this year saying that the effects of the treatment have lasted.

I've been corresponding with Dr. Lim by email and he claims the work that cured @kelpiemsp is continuing, and there will be a new trial in a year or two at the University of Minnesota. If the results that @kelpiemsp felt from the device Dr. Lim developed can be reproduced in others, then yes! That will be game changing. What happened to that individual is very real, indeed.

Dr. Shore's device calms overactivity of the fusiform cells in the DCN, which I think will be effective. However, Dr. Lim's device attacks the auditory thalamus which is a gating mechanism of the brain which regulates hyperactivity in the auditory cortex. So where Dr. Shore's device currently only works on somatic tinnitus, Dr. Lim's device should be effective for both for cases of somatic tinnitus and non-somatic tinnitus.

The status pinned to the top of @kelpiemsp's profile on Tinnitus Talk is "I am currently experiencing silence for the 1st time in 31 years. No wonder people are so upset. What a strange and nice feeling." I believe that. You can believe what you want.

Out of curiosity, is the understanding that Dr. Shore's device would not function in cases where the user had habituated to tinnitus, and would only function on relatively "new" cases (< 6 months)?

No, I've had an email exchange with Dr. Shore where I asked if her device will work for those with long lasting tinnitus. She said that there were people in her trial that had had tinnitus for a very long time. However, she didn't go into detail about how long they'd had it.

 

[Nick47]

No, are you not familiar with Dr. Lim's work at the University of Minnesota? The current Lenire is a joke. The next version based on his work will be game changing.

@dj_newark, I'm not familiar with Dr. Lim's device. Is it based on bimodal stimulation? The bloke just screams a con artist to me.

@dj_newark, did you take part in a trial years back that reduced your tinnitus volume by 15%?

I became aware that Richard Tyler has developed an electrical ear stimulation design with auditory input. A small trial of 11 people. Unpublished yet.

 

[dj_newark]

@dj_newark, I'm not familiar with Dr. Lim's device. Is it based on bimodal stimulation? The bloke just screams a con artist to me.

Does this look like the profile of a con artist to you? No. He is an esteemed scientist who is on our side. Don't be swayed by those who are turned off by his association with Neuromod. I am turned off by that too, to be honest. However, that doesn't negate the good he's done and trying to do. I think he's very misunderstood by the tinnitus community because he works for Neuromod.

Yes, his device is a bimodal neurostimulation device in the form of a hearing aid that does electrical stimulation of the ear. The technique uses electrical stimulation that is paired with sounds, sort of the way that Dr. Shore's device is.

However, his approach works with the auditory thalamus, not the DCN like Dr. Shore is doing.

You can look up some of the work that the lab he works for is up to here. The work he's done to completely cure @kelpiemsp is exciting. He's checked in to Tinnitus Talk this year saying that he is still cured, although his TMJ is still a problem.

I became aware that Richard Tyler has developed an electrical ear stimulation design with auditory input. A small trial of 11 people. Unpublished yet.

View attachment 53921

Thanks for cluing me into the work that Richard Tyler is doing. I was completely unfamiliar and will look him up!

@dj_newark, did you take part in a trial years back that reduced your tinnitus volume by 15%?

Yes, I took part in the MicroTransponder trial which was a VNS implant which reduced my tinnitus by 15 dB. Not 15%. However, after that improvement, the VNS device stopped working and we couldn't get it working again. After trying for 3 years with that device with no further improvement, I had it removed. If they can revive that project again and make it effective, I'd be very interested in that!

 

[Mathew Gould]

When I use marijuana, caffeine or alcohol, my tinnitus gets worse. I have good days too, with "non-annoying" tinnitus, up to 20 days a month. When I use the aforementioned, it must speed up my neurons which is why tinnitus happens, I guess.

I'm wondering if Dr. Shore's device will help slow down these neurons? My theory is if my neurons can get sped up a lot, then they can do the reverse as well.

 

[awake 44]

When I use marijuana, caffeine or alcohol, my tinnitus gets worse. I have good days too, with "non-annoying" tinnitus, up to 20 days a month. When I use the aforementioned, it must speed up my neurons which is why tinnitus happens, I guess.

I'm wondering if Dr. Shore's device will help slow down these neurons? My theory is if my neurons can get sped up a lot, then they can do the reverse as well.

Yes, Dr. Shore said exactly that. She want to depress neurons in the DCN (I'm assuming this means slowing them down). I have the same reaction to marijuana and huge doses of alcohol as well.

 

[@dam]

Seems the closer Dr. Shore's device gets, the harder the wait is.

Assuming good results after its release, how many non-Americans are going to fly over to the United States? I'm certainly not waiting the 100 years it will take for Australia to get its hands on it.

• Give this message a thumbs up if you are not in the United States and you would travel there to get access to the device.
• Rate this message friendly (heart) if you would not travel and rather wait for launch in your own country or closer by.
• Mark this message as a good question (question mark) if you aren't interested in the device at all, regardless of its efficacy.

↑ Bullet points added by a mod, so that everyone doesn't need to comment separately.

 

[Nick47]

@@dam, I wouldn't be able to travel to the United States. Living in Britain, this will never see the NHS, so it will be available privately when it gets here.

 

[Jonno02]

Seems the closer Dr. Shore's device gets, the harder the wait is.

Assuming good results after its release, how many non-Americans are going to fly over to the United States? I'm certainly not waiting the 100 years it will take for Australia to get its hands on it.

Depends on a few factors for me.

When the company I work for do regulatory submissions, these are generally done in near-tandem. FDA is a biggy, then BSI etc follow very shortly after. I wouldn't imagine Dr. Shore will sit on this device for very long after getting FDA approval before seeking rest of world approval. Copy cat devices will pop up pretty quickly so they need to capture the market early. I would imagine they have an experienced team or consultants behind them guiding them through the regulatory process.

I also want to see its efficacy in the wild, so to speak.

I don't want to fly to America, get the device and then realise there are restrictions like changing the frequency it plays that can only be changed by approved clinics i.e. what if the frequency I thought my 10,000+ Hz tone is at is actually 14,500 Hz and not 13,000 Hz. If the device comes with software that can control parameters like this and follow up appointments at approved clinics aren't necessary, I would consider flying to America.

 

[Nick47]

what if the frequency I thought my 10,000+ Hz tone is at is actually 14,500 Hz and not 13,000 Hz. If the device comes with software that can control parameters like this and follow up appointments at approved clinics aren't necessary, I would consider flying to America.

This is still the mystery to me. Multi-tonal cases are common, as well as normal audiograms, so being precise on the frequency is difficult.

And @linearb, who participated in the Phase 1 trial, said it was basically a broadband square wave sound played by the device?

The sounds that the device plays are not very special, I believe it's basically a fat, broadband square wave across the entire hearable spectrum.

 

[duesseldorf]

Am I naive in thinking that the approval for the EU will be coming shortly after the US? I suppose everybody will have an interest in marketing the device everywhere sooner rather than later, as this will be economically profitable for basically every party involved?

I would travel if needed - but I strongly suppose that this device will need professional support to work as well as regular check-ins with the patient, so only travelling there likely won't do it.

 

[UHPTS]

Copy cat devices will pop up pretty quickly so they need to capture the market early.

Won't Dr. Shore's device be protected by some patent?

 

[dj_newark]

Won't Dr. Shore's device be protected by some patent?

It's already patented. From this link it says:

U-M holds a patent on the concept behind the device and is developing it for potential commercialization.

 

[Jonno02]

Won't Dr. Shore's device be protected by some patent?

It won't stop you from being able to buy copycat devices online from certain countries.

 

[UHPTS]

It's already patented. From this link it says:

U-M holds a patent on the concept behind the device and is developing it for potential commercialization.

The article is from 2018 so I guess by the time the device gets out the patent will be expired.

 

[ajc]

The article is from 2018 so I guess by the time the device gets out the patent will be expired.

Patents generally last 20 years, but your tongue-in-cheek sarcasm has been duly noted.

 

[Jonno02]

Leading on from the discussion about tone matching, this has been on my mind in preparation for Dr. Shore's device.

Does anybody have problems matching their tones? My 10+ kHz tone is so hard to match because it completely disappears as soon as I play any tone within the ballpark. I've convinced myself it's at 10 kHz, 10 minutes later I'm sure it's 10.7 kHz, then 14 kHz etc. You get the idea.

It seems some people don't experience this and can just keep playing different tones until it overlaps with their tinnitus.

 

[ErikaS]

Leading on from the discussion about tone matching, this has been on my mind in preparation for Dr. Shore's device.

Does anybody have problems matching their tones? My 10+ kHz tone is so hard to match because it completely disappears as soon as I play any tone within the ballpark. I've convinced myself it's at 10 kHz, 10 minutes later I'm sure it's 10.7 kHz, then 14 kHz etc. You get the idea.

It seems some people don't experience this and can just keep playing different tones until it overlaps with their tinnitus.

I am in the same position as you. My high frequency audiogram post inner ear infection shows huge dip in right ear starting at 12.5 kHz that continues to go down and stay drastically different from left ear up to 18 kHz. When I directly play any tone at 12.5 kHz and up, or, set ACRN neuromodulation frequency on TinnitusPlay app at 12.5 kHz, 13.5 kHz, or even 14 kHz and I listen to the 4 beeps, it drastically lessens the tinnitus tone all the same. I'm convinced it mainly lives around 13.5 kHz - 14 kHz, but it definitely changes. Then my other 2 tones are sounds in which one has slight tone changing beeps and the other is an eeeee that bounces from 2100 Hz all the way up to 2700 Hz depending on external sounds, oh and reactivity/spiking tinnitus as the cherry on the cake!

So I hear what you're saying, and with that I really hope as long as an output tone is something close enough and does what it's supposed to, calming the excitability in the DCN, HOPEFULLY we won't have to be exact specific with the actual output tone.

 

[ma7555]

Leading on from the discussion about tone matching, this has been on my mind in preparation for Dr. Shore's device.

Does anybody have problems matching their tones? My 10+ kHz tone is so hard to match because it completely disappears as soon as I play any tone within the ballpark. I've convinced myself it's at 10 kHz, 10 minutes later I'm sure it's 10.7 kHz, then 14 kHz etc. You get the idea.

It seems some people don't experience this and can just keep playing different tones until it overlaps with their tinnitus.

I had difficulty with matching my tone too. On some days I can easily match it to 10 kHz, other times to 8.5 kHz. I will tell you what worked for me.

1. Go to the most silent place you can go, it could be a closed room in your house with all sound/machines turned down and away from windows or street sounds.
2. Wear an over the ear headphones that has noise isolation.
3. If your tinnitus is on the left side, play the tones in the right ear in a volume similar to the tinnitus volume on the left ear.
4. If your tinnitus disappears, wait till it comes back and retry.

This website is good for the task because it gives you the test twice and you need to match it in both times in order to succeed.

Note that you may have 2 or more tones that alternate in intensity masking each other and that could be the reason you can match to different frequencies each time.

 

[BTaylor12]

Leading on from the discussion about tone matching, this has been on my mind in preparation for Dr. Shore's device.

Does anybody have problems matching their tones? My 10+ kHz tone is so hard to match because it completely disappears as soon as I play any tone within the ballpark. I've convinced myself it's at 10 kHz, 10 minutes later I'm sure it's 10.7 kHz, then 14 kHz etc. You get the idea.

It seems some people don't experience this and can just keep playing different tones until it overlaps with their tinnitus.

I cannot match my tone at all. I've tried a few times and can't find it. Hopefully this isn't a problem if I ever get the opportunity to try the Shore device.

 

[EDDTEKK]

The problem with tinnitus is that in most cases it is not a pure sinus tone. I have an app which has different sound options for pure tones. Even with that I have problems to match my tinnitus. Sometimes I think it's 5050 Hz, then later 3800 Hz and so on. It's quite difficult.

 

[Jonno02]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm hoping that if the tone is 'close enough' to cause my tinnitus to disappear, then that tone will work for calming my DCN with the device.

 

[duesseldorf]

I also have great difficulties matching my tones. They are gone as soon as I play a beeping sound. I am mostly afraid of my inability to match the "crickets/high crackle" sounds. And I can only modulate the tone in my left ear with my neck and jaw, not the one in the right ear...

 

[jeannie]

Does anyone know if Dr. Shore's device will be covered by insurance? And will you be allowed to try it in any case or do you have to be able to modulate your tinnitus with jaw, neck, etc...?

 

[AfroSnowman]

Does anyone know if Dr. Shore's device will be covered by insurance? And will you be allowed to try it in any case or do you have to be able to modulate your tinnitus with jaw, neck, etc...?

Insurance companies in the US mostly make their own policy decisions about what they will cover or not. I've been going through some knee issues and have changed jobs/insurance half way through and there are certain FDA approved treatments that were covered by one and not the other.

Though insurance may cover it in the future, I would expect that they would not do so immediately, so if you want to be in the first wave during years 1-2, you will probably have to pay out of pocket.

 

[KoolKat]

Does anyone know if Dr. Shore's device will be covered by insurance? And will you be allowed to try it in any case or do you have to be able to modulate your tinnitus with jaw, neck, etc...?

Sister, at this point, just as long as it works, give them WHATEVER.

But I would suggest to start saving just in case.

 

[BadNeighbors]

It won't stop you from being able to buy copycat devices online from certain countries.

I would not buy a knock off. I will pay the extra for the real thing.

As for the tone matching, does it say in the study how they matched tones? I'm not good at matching my tone on my own either, but I imagine with a specialist, we could figure it out.

 

[Jonno02]

I would not buy a knock off. I will pay the extra for the real thing.

Same, but many others may not be in as fortunate a position.

 

[EDDTEKK]

As for the tone matching, does it say in the study how they matched tones? I'm not good at matching my tone on my own either, but I imagine with a specialist, we could figure it out.

You need to find an audio program that has different modes for one frequency. The different modes can help match your tinnitus much better. Tinnitus is not usually comparable with the classic sinus tone (wave).

 

[AfroSnowman]

Do they do tone matching for the audio portion of this or is it like Lenire that just uses full spectrum sounds calibrated to your hearing loss? I know they did tone matching for the study, but was that relevant for tuning the sound portion of the therapy or just to study how tinnitus changed with its use? If it is the former, then it really wouldn't be important to be able to match tinnitus sounds at all.