MemberI emailed the Tinnitus Pro developers, thanked them and asked for potential future Spotify support. They replied and said that's on their mind now.
Notched Music Therapy (DIY, AudioNotch, etc.)
- Thread starter Scarred
- Start date
Ok so, I did the whole audacity thing where you take out the certain frequency in a song that corresponds to the one of your tinnitus. Thing is, I have a shifting frequency, and I want to get rid of both the high and low tones. Any tech wizards who can tell me how I could take out two (or more) Hz frequencies out of a song? At this point I've been using the Nyquist Prompt Effect and this command:
(vector (notch2 (aref s 0) 9684 1) (notch2 (aref s 1) 9684 1) )" if your song is in stereo (it probably is)
That's for one notch, any ideas for two notches?
(vector (notch2 (aref s 0) 9684 1) (notch2 (aref s 1) 9684 1) )" if your song is in stereo (it probably is)
That's for one notch, any ideas for two notches?
Hi,
I created the video that the first post refers to and I just found this web site today and I have been reading the comments.
I should say that the DIY steps I took were an attempt to mirror the method used by Pantev et al.
From reading other papers published by them, it is apparent that they used Cool Edit software and notched music in wave format at >100db using a Butterworth filter at 150 order.
Using other software may work, but it seems vital that the notched band contains no energy. The Audacity method by Phua looks to be about 40 db ie 60 db short of ideal. So be careful.
Music is used for the study, because the changes to plasticity in the brain are inferred to occur during periods of concentration. Music holds your attention. That part is essential. Noise will not hold your attention.
Pantev et al used a CTF magnetoencephalography instrument, very expensive piece of hardware, to measure the improvements in their test subjects.
The Italian study that Phua refers to is altogether different. They used notched noise and the improvements claimed appear to be based on interview ie. anecdotal. I don't see any reference in their work to MEG results.
I created the video that the first post refers to and I just found this web site today and I have been reading the comments.
I should say that the DIY steps I took were an attempt to mirror the method used by Pantev et al.
From reading other papers published by them, it is apparent that they used Cool Edit software and notched music in wave format at >100db using a Butterworth filter at 150 order.
Using other software may work, but it seems vital that the notched band contains no energy. The Audacity method by Phua looks to be about 40 db ie 60 db short of ideal. So be careful.
Music is used for the study, because the changes to plasticity in the brain are inferred to occur during periods of concentration. Music holds your attention. That part is essential. Noise will not hold your attention.
Pantev et al used a CTF magnetoencephalography instrument, very expensive piece of hardware, to measure the improvements in their test subjects.
The Italian study that Phua refers to is altogether different. They used notched noise and the improvements claimed appear to be based on interview ie. anecdotal. I don't see any reference in their work to MEG results.
- Oct 22, 2014
- 240
- 40
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2014
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic trauma (club drumming)
@Evestrough The tinnitus pro app notches your own music, is the 'one octave band around tinnitus frequency' good enough?
I'm consider supporting someone to create a filter library that can be put in front of things like your own music and spotify to notch, but want to make sure I've got a 'scientifically proved' notching algorithm first.
I'm consider supporting someone to create a filter library that can be put in front of things like your own music and spotify to notch, but want to make sure I've got a 'scientifically proved' notching algorithm first.
Hi Tomm,
Sorry,I don't know. You should ask the developer if the software creates a >100db notch, or measure the output with another program. There is a contact address on their website.
The authors of the original study feel that wave files are preferable to MP3 format but I'm not sure why.
Does the app support .wav extensions?
Sorry,I don't know. You should ask the developer if the software creates a >100db notch, or measure the output with another program. There is a contact address on their website.
The authors of the original study feel that wave files are preferable to MP3 format but I'm not sure why.
Does the app support .wav extensions?
- Oct 22, 2014
- 240
- 40
- Tinnitus Since
- 10/2014
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Acoustic trauma (club drumming)
Erm, maybe if the mp3 sampling frequency from the original wav is too low the notching will introduce some nasty sounding artifacts around the notch as it re-encodes it.
If Phua is simply not making it quiet enough inside the notch that's easy enough to fix. I still don't understand how wide the notch has to be and whether it matter what the 'edges' look like. Can you just perform a straight up removal of certain frequencies or do you have to roll off the amplitude?
If Phua is simply not making it quiet enough inside the notch that's easy enough to fix. I still don't understand how wide the notch has to be and whether it matter what the 'edges' look like. Can you just perform a straight up removal of certain frequencies or do you have to roll off the amplitude?
Yeah, that makes sense. I noticed that they compress the wave before notching, in the second experiment.
I've been attempting to find my frequency and I'm stumbling over one huge hurdle:
My frequency seems to be way higher than the frequency above which I can no longer hear.
I can hear frequencies up to about 11kHz but very little at frequencies above that. If I crank the volume, I can discern sound up until 12kHz, maybe a tad higher.
So, how do I identify a specific frequency if it's outside the range of my ability to hear? There's no way I can do notched therapy (or ACRN) if the best I can do is "my tinnitus frequency is somewhere above 11kHz..."
My frequency seems to be way higher than the frequency above which I can no longer hear.
I can hear frequencies up to about 11kHz but very little at frequencies above that. If I crank the volume, I can discern sound up until 12kHz, maybe a tad higher.
So, how do I identify a specific frequency if it's outside the range of my ability to hear? There's no way I can do notched therapy (or ACRN) if the best I can do is "my tinnitus frequency is somewhere above 11kHz..."
- Jun 26, 2014
- 2,264
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2013
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Drugs barotrauma
Yeah I have the same...ski slope starting at 9500 and then no hearing just T. I don't think it works for this type of T. I think there has to be a actual notch..I could be wrong. I tried to find my frequency and ended up with really sore ears.
Yep, same ski slope here , mine starts at around 40db loss @8khz, 60db loss at 12khz and so on.
Notched music obviously does not work here, we dont have a notch.
An audiologist told me recently that people with single tone tinnitus are always deaf at their specific frequency. Accordingly, one can only determine their frequency by elimination (i.e., approaching the frequency from both above and below and determining the frequency by the absence of hearing in a specific range).
For those of you who have found your frequency, can you confirm that you're actually deaf at your specific frequency, or is this not true?
I ask because I obtained a much better set of headphones last night, locked myself in a quiet room, and think I may have gotten pretty close to my frequency (11,800 Hz). While I need to turn the volume up a bit to hear that pitch clearly, I can hear it rather well and it sounds like I'm getting very close to a match. (Like many of you mention, this is not a straightforward procedure, as the tinnitus sometimes goes away for a minute or so when exposed to a similar frequency and it's sometimes just plain maddening to do this for very long.)
If I'm correct, and I'm very close to finding my frequency, then what the audiologist said isn't always true. It's not a certainty that everyone with single tone tinnitus is deaf at their specific frequency.
It wouldn't be the first time a medical expert was wrong, of course, but I'd love to get some specifics from those of you who have found your frequency: exactly what are you hearing as you match your tinnitus? If you're listening to a rising pitch does the volume of the external tone drop and become lost behind the tinnitus sound as you approach your tinnitus frequency or can you stack the external tone on top of your tinnitus frequency, hearing them both? Does the external tone reappear as the frequency moves above the range of your tinnitus?
Also, is it just me, or is it very difficult to detect subtle changes in pitch at high frequencies? I recognize that 11,700 to 11,800 is a very small percentage change as compared to 800 to 900, so it would make sense that the former change would be harder to discern. When sound and the brain are involved, however, things aren't always logical.
For those of you who have found your frequency, can you confirm that you're actually deaf at your specific frequency, or is this not true?
I ask because I obtained a much better set of headphones last night, locked myself in a quiet room, and think I may have gotten pretty close to my frequency (11,800 Hz). While I need to turn the volume up a bit to hear that pitch clearly, I can hear it rather well and it sounds like I'm getting very close to a match. (Like many of you mention, this is not a straightforward procedure, as the tinnitus sometimes goes away for a minute or so when exposed to a similar frequency and it's sometimes just plain maddening to do this for very long.)
If I'm correct, and I'm very close to finding my frequency, then what the audiologist said isn't always true. It's not a certainty that everyone with single tone tinnitus is deaf at their specific frequency.
It wouldn't be the first time a medical expert was wrong, of course, but I'd love to get some specifics from those of you who have found your frequency: exactly what are you hearing as you match your tinnitus? If you're listening to a rising pitch does the volume of the external tone drop and become lost behind the tinnitus sound as you approach your tinnitus frequency or can you stack the external tone on top of your tinnitus frequency, hearing them both? Does the external tone reappear as the frequency moves above the range of your tinnitus?
Also, is it just me, or is it very difficult to detect subtle changes in pitch at high frequencies? I recognize that 11,700 to 11,800 is a very small percentage change as compared to 800 to 900, so it would make sense that the former change would be harder to discern. When sound and the brain are involved, however, things aren't always logical.
I have just joined Tinnitus Talk and am looking around for any info I can find on Audionotch, but don't seem to be able to see anything on it here. I purchased a 2 month trial yesterday but am having trouble programming it. Could use some help here, as there is no one to call and I have to wait for replies to my emails which are not very forthcoming or helpful so far. Has anyone had success with Audionotch? I noticed a blog post on its website from a tintin31 who says he is a member on Tinnitus Talk but I see no post from him here. He claims that Audionotch has really worked for him.
@tintin31 is a member on this forum. Just go up to the open empty bar above on the right hand side at the top, click into it, u will see a drop down box, click into the members name box and type tintin s name into it and it will bring up tintin31 and then click on that and click search ........... alternatively click on his name here which shows in blue and you can go to his profile and start a conversation with him or he may see this post as his name showing here will send him an alert. Last time he posted was in december. Hope this helps
Thanks. I think I contacted tintin correctly and will see if he responds. I'm still trying to figure out my frequency so I can use Audionotch successfully. Question (I asked this of tintin but am not sure yet how this website actually works): once someone has set their notched sound frequency, are you supposed to be able to hear it while listening to the white noise or whatever music you have downloaded? Cause all I can hear is my ears ringing on top of the noise or music so I'm not sure I'm doing this correctly. Or is the notched sound supposed to cancel out or neutralize the ringing? I've been reading all the prior posts on audionotching and sound therapy and you guys are technical wizards. I dont get a lot of what you say and could spend hours going over all this info but really would rather get on with my life, if possible. I just want something simple that might help this damn T calm down. I guess if I cant find my frequency, Audionotch won't work, although maybe just sitting or lying down while listening to sound therapy can be relaxing and int he long run, that will help. Been pretty stressed out, as I imagine a lot of you are too.
P
Peter Phua
Guest
Hi Ezzy,
I think I replied to your e-mail just now but I'll reply on here as well just in case. I'm sorry that you're having a difficult time with the software. Admittedly it does take some technical acumen to understand and implement. I could tell from our exchange that we have some room for improvement on our end in terms of simplifying our explanations of how the software works.
You should listen approximately the volume of your tinnitus, up to a safe volume (don't cause more hearing damage!). In some case the notched sounds will cancel out the tinnitus tone entirely, but in other cases, it will still be perceptible. Regardless, it's not particularly important if it is still audible while undergoing the therapy - what matters is your long term sustained response (if you do have one).
Hope this helps!
I think I replied to your e-mail just now but I'll reply on here as well just in case. I'm sorry that you're having a difficult time with the software. Admittedly it does take some technical acumen to understand and implement. I could tell from our exchange that we have some room for improvement on our end in terms of simplifying our explanations of how the software works.
You should listen approximately the volume of your tinnitus, up to a safe volume (don't cause more hearing damage!). In some case the notched sounds will cancel out the tinnitus tone entirely, but in other cases, it will still be perceptible. Regardless, it's not particularly important if it is still audible while undergoing the therapy - what matters is your long term sustained response (if you do have one).
Hope this helps!
Thank you. I've figured this out and am listening. I just hope I have the tone at appx the correct frequency.
This is so hard trying to find the correct frequency. I also got fitted for the Phonak Audeo Q a Tinnitus Solution, and even though my Tinnitus is present 24/7 the frequency changes from day to day and the pitch can be from medium to very loud which is unbearable to me, so the pitch or frequency of the masker is never correct. Would be so much easier is the Tinnitus sound stayed the same.
Is the Phonak Audio Q a masking device or is it similar to Audionotch? I myself tried a masking hearing aid but didnt like it. Am trying Audionotch now.
I have had T since April 2014, which came on suddenly. Not sure if it's because of too much loud music in my youth, genetic (my dad had hearing issues), or all the ear infections I got as a kid.
However, I have been trying all sorts of supplements (90 days at a time) with no real effect. Right now, I've settled on NAC and Citrus Bioflavinoids (recommended to me and is in various blogs as a possible supplement).
However, this thread is about audio therapy and I am grateful to have read a few discussion threads on this website that have helped me to start my grand experiment. I downloaded Audacity (free), and found it super easy to generate a one hour white noise file with my T frequency notched.
I used the free frequency generator at www.audionotch.com to "discover" the frequency of my T (~9400 Hz). This wasn't so easy and even their "help" page isn't really useful. However, if you move the slider slowly up from low to high frequency (unless I'm deaf, or there are dogs out there with T...I can't really hear much past 14k HZ), I was able to hear where the frequency generator sound faded out around my T (moving the slider back and forth to find that "dead zone" since it's matching the T noise in your head).
Anyway, I think 9420 Hz is about right for me, so I have now created a 9420 Hz notched white noise sound file (1 hour). I think I will try this first as I believe that I read in www.audionotch.com that they recommend (or the studies they quote) that you should try min. 1 hr a day (also, that white noise is better than notched music).
Will give it a shot over the next little while and let you all know.
However, I have been trying all sorts of supplements (90 days at a time) with no real effect. Right now, I've settled on NAC and Citrus Bioflavinoids (recommended to me and is in various blogs as a possible supplement).
However, this thread is about audio therapy and I am grateful to have read a few discussion threads on this website that have helped me to start my grand experiment. I downloaded Audacity (free), and found it super easy to generate a one hour white noise file with my T frequency notched.
I used the free frequency generator at www.audionotch.com to "discover" the frequency of my T (~9400 Hz). This wasn't so easy and even their "help" page isn't really useful. However, if you move the slider slowly up from low to high frequency (unless I'm deaf, or there are dogs out there with T...I can't really hear much past 14k HZ), I was able to hear where the frequency generator sound faded out around my T (moving the slider back and forth to find that "dead zone" since it's matching the T noise in your head).
Anyway, I think 9420 Hz is about right for me, so I have now created a 9420 Hz notched white noise sound file (1 hour). I think I will try this first as I believe that I read in www.audionotch.com that they recommend (or the studies they quote) that you should try min. 1 hr a day (also, that white noise is better than notched music).
Will give it a shot over the next little while and let you all know.
ruben ruiz
Member
SoulStation
Member
My question is whether notched music works at all.
ACRN definitely can bump my T away for a min or makes it silent when I'm listening. But I try hard not to use it too much as I don't feel it helps with habituation. In fact, I feel ACRN might even be unhelpful in the habituation process.
I also had the feeling that my T was worst after i did the ACRN, so i never did it again...
Has anyone experienced positive results with the Notched music or White noise? ( Or natural white noise ? )
SoulStation
Member
What frequency is yours? Mine is at 3.9kHz - but I have other tones too...just not as loud...
Mine is at arround 1020hz on the Left ear. I have some higher frequencies on the right ear also, but it's the one on the left that really bothers me! have you experienced any results?
SoulStation
Member
Hello, I tried the above Audacity method and find that as soon as I pause the music or take off my headphones there is a ringing almost separate from my tinnitus but maybe the same, I'm not sure, but it is clear and takes several minutes to go away. The other night I left my headphones on while listening to night noises and woke up with the ringing stronger than it had been in awhile and it took hours to go away and back to normal T levels.
Is this normal?
I mean, I guess it's not what the software is meant to do.
Also, has anyone get anecdotal evidence of this? I've seen a couple of people on the forum say that they have had some results, but you'd think that if everyone in this thread had tried it we'd see lots of success stories... am I just missing them?
Is this normal?
I mean, I guess it's not what the software is meant to do.
Also, has anyone get anecdotal evidence of this? I've seen a couple of people on the forum say that they have had some results, but you'd think that if everyone in this thread had tried it we'd see lots of success stories... am I just missing them?
Things you will need :
A computer with internet.
Get your Tinnitus Frequencies by matching your sound with the online tones at a sight like AudioNotch.com
(Mine is 2 tones at around 3700 Hz and an octave above that so about 7400 Hz)
Get free audio mixer online called Audacity.
MP3 recordings of your favorite songs (Heavy Metal and Jazz work best because of complex audio) and you must convert them to WAV files so you need a audio file converter as well or a techie friend.
What you will be doing is cutting a "notch" in each song that matches your tinnitus frequencies. You will remove the frequencies and about 100 Hz to each side. So for mine as an example, I cut 2 notches in each song removing the frequencies 3600-3800 Hz and 7300 to 7500 Hz.
Just to give you a picture of what you are doing, every sound you hear is simply a frequency. So your tinnitus, if it is mostly a high or low pitch tone or tones, can be matched and imitated with a tone generator. When you look at a song in a computer audio mixer like Audacity, it converts the frequencies, (ie; sounds) into a graph.
So you open the converted music file (.wav) in Audacity. Go to Effects and open the NOTCH FILTER.
Filter out you frequencies with 100HZ added to each side as explained above. You will need approximately 2 hours of music for 2 hours of therapy each day. (you can listen to the songs more than once of course if you want) Just do a bunch of songs.
The idea of the therapy, which can take as long as 2 years, is to confuse the T signal going to your ears which will hopefully trick your brain enough so that you can better ignore the tinnitus and habituate. This also means doing exactly what pisses so many people off when they hear this but YOU HAVE to IGNORE and NOT REACT to your condition as MUCH as you can. I strongly recommend learning to meditate using a CHANT to help you also cover up your T while you are meditating. Buddhist concepts of suffering and pain are very helpful meditations and are worth reading up on, I assure you. We cause so much pain for ourselves and others by how we REACT to painful things.and it is worth reading the original writings of The Buddha about this subject.
This does not mean to belittle YOU or your PAIN. Quite the contrary. It is meant to help you get clarity on the PROCESS of pain in humans and how we can SUFFER LESS by teaching ourselves to REACT LESS.
So Two Hours of Therapy or as much as you can each day and 20 minutes or so of meditation to quiet the mind and gain clarity on pain in the human condition.
It is a long hard road and I have suffered immensely, I assure you. BUT.....after 10 years of Tinnitus hell, I am still here and still fighting with you every day. So I have THAT going for me. Remember the part in CaddyShack when Bill Murray talks about how the Dalai Lama stiffed him on his tip but ....you get the picture...look up that clip on YouTube for a chuckle....and Keep Laughing! Best Wishes, Mark H.
A computer with internet.
Get your Tinnitus Frequencies by matching your sound with the online tones at a sight like AudioNotch.com
(Mine is 2 tones at around 3700 Hz and an octave above that so about 7400 Hz)
Get free audio mixer online called Audacity.
MP3 recordings of your favorite songs (Heavy Metal and Jazz work best because of complex audio) and you must convert them to WAV files so you need a audio file converter as well or a techie friend.
What you will be doing is cutting a "notch" in each song that matches your tinnitus frequencies. You will remove the frequencies and about 100 Hz to each side. So for mine as an example, I cut 2 notches in each song removing the frequencies 3600-3800 Hz and 7300 to 7500 Hz.
Just to give you a picture of what you are doing, every sound you hear is simply a frequency. So your tinnitus, if it is mostly a high or low pitch tone or tones, can be matched and imitated with a tone generator. When you look at a song in a computer audio mixer like Audacity, it converts the frequencies, (ie; sounds) into a graph.
So you open the converted music file (.wav) in Audacity. Go to Effects and open the NOTCH FILTER.
Filter out you frequencies with 100HZ added to each side as explained above. You will need approximately 2 hours of music for 2 hours of therapy each day. (you can listen to the songs more than once of course if you want) Just do a bunch of songs.
The idea of the therapy, which can take as long as 2 years, is to confuse the T signal going to your ears which will hopefully trick your brain enough so that you can better ignore the tinnitus and habituate. This also means doing exactly what pisses so many people off when they hear this but YOU HAVE to IGNORE and NOT REACT to your condition as MUCH as you can. I strongly recommend learning to meditate using a CHANT to help you also cover up your T while you are meditating. Buddhist concepts of suffering and pain are very helpful meditations and are worth reading up on, I assure you. We cause so much pain for ourselves and others by how we REACT to painful things.and it is worth reading the original writings of The Buddha about this subject.
This does not mean to belittle YOU or your PAIN. Quite the contrary. It is meant to help you get clarity on the PROCESS of pain in humans and how we can SUFFER LESS by teaching ourselves to REACT LESS.
So Two Hours of Therapy or as much as you can each day and 20 minutes or so of meditation to quiet the mind and gain clarity on pain in the human condition.
It is a long hard road and I have suffered immensely, I assure you. BUT.....after 10 years of Tinnitus hell, I am still here and still fighting with you every day. So I have THAT going for me. Remember the part in CaddyShack when Bill Murray talks about how the Dalai Lama stiffed him on his tip but ....you get the picture...look up that clip on YouTube for a chuckle....and Keep Laughing! Best Wishes, Mark H.
ruben ruiz
Member
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