MemberMaybe, then again maybe it's an individual thing, foam plugs should nearly go all the way in and only have 2 or 3 mm protruding out of the ear canal.
Occlusion Effect, Ear Plugs Pointless in Social Situations?
- Thread starter geg1992
- Start date
Maybe, then again maybe it's an individual thing, foam plugs should nearly go all the way in and only have 2 or 3 mm protruding out of the ear canal.
Makes sense, the more you insert them the less room your own sound will have to bounce back and forth between your eardrum and the ear plug.
Sometimes tinfoil hat just won't do and one has to use radiation cancelling hat instead
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
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- 1999
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Er, the context was someone who had been seen for 12 sequential and failed earplug fitting, which does not sound like a usual situation (and is described in the text as seeing this doctor as "the court of last resort", the person is described as having "an unusual hearing loss", and they attribute the 110db reading to "his physiology". )
If these readings (110db) were both a normal finding, and especially if there was the potential for actual hearing damage instead of annoyance, don't you think someone would have figured that out by now, given the 3,000,000 hearing aid fittings done annually in the US alone? Meaning, if this were a common finding, and if actual damage could result, then there would be an absolute ton of hearing damage occurring in occlusive aid users, and we'd have a ton of longitudinal data to suggest that people who wear occlusive hearing aids are significantly more likely to experience further hearing loss, than people with similar hearing profiles who don't.
Because I cannot find anything like that anywhere, I remain skeptical.
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
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- 1999
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Sometimes tinfoil hat just won't do and one has to use radiation cancelling hat instead
Oddly, this is something we do have good data on: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...the-government-to-track-your-thoughts/262998/
- Jun 26, 2014
- 2,264
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2013
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Drugs barotrauma
Yes this is a usual situation, it is currently being addressed with new technology. If it was somehow unusual there wouldn't be vented designed ear plugs to combat this much talked about issue. The hearing aid manufacturers are also trying to work around this with bone condution hearing aids. Again I can post another 50 articles about this if you like? If it was unusual, there would be no market for a product that combats this, in fact it wouldn't even be talked about.
I can send you more info with the same findings, but im possitive that you will state that they are all unusual.
Anyway, im done postings here, this is getting tedious
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
- Tinnitus Since
- 1999
- Cause of Tinnitus
- karma
can you send me any information indicating that this effect can actually be dangerous or harm hearing, or studies that have been done in humans showing that it is dangerous or harmed their hearing?
Hearing aids are not earplugs; aids generate large amounts of noise, in some cases at pretty high volumes because the users are hearing-disabled to start with. I am maintaining that it's not really reasonable to be speculating about hearing damage from earplugs, based on single-case reports that were assessing hearing discomfort from occlusive hearing aids.
I'm totally open to the idea that earplugs could be dangerous, but to believe it I'd want to see some hard data that shows this is the case... not random speculation based on largely unrelated information.
No, someone who has failed 12 subsequent hearing fittings and has "unusual physiology" is not a usual situation at all, and trying to predict what the db level in your ear with a plug in is, based on a single measurement of the db level in someone else's ear with a hearing aid in, is not a reasonable thing to do.
- Jun 26, 2014
- 2,264
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2013
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Drugs barotrauma
I said I was done here but somehow you rope me in. I'm on my phone most the time and can't get the quote feature to work so bear with me.
It is in YOUR OPINION that this is unusual. You have a real issue with stating your own opinions like they are facts. I went to a tinnitus camp here in Calgary and found that most of the group just gave up on hearing aids rather than going for fitting after fitting. Maybe it is unusual to go for 12 fittings, and maybe it is more usual to give up after a couple times. I don't know, it kind of irrelevant anyway. What is relevent is that the patient experienced the occlusion effect like A LOT of people do which has been proven! There are literly hundreds of posts online about this!! Just google it man!!!
Yes the occlusion effect is the same regardless of what is blocking the canal. As soon as you seal the ear this occurs. The depth and the materials (there may be a slight dampening) used will be a very slight factor, but that is it.
For the last time I'm not saying it's dangerous, I'm also not saying it isn't. I'm simply stating that this could be of some concern to many here. I have described in my own case how it is too loud for me, I have also posted an example of how this effect can reach very high sound presure levels JUST THROUGH NORMAL SPEACH (110bd!). At this point you have to just use your own common sense!!
Thank God you aren't the one addressing this issue and that the hearing aid/ear plug companies are working on this. The team addressing this problem would have to spend all day with you just convincing you that this is indeed a real problem that exsists for many people.
If this isn't a issue for you great!! Please have a little understanding that it is for some.
It is in YOUR OPINION that this is unusual. You have a real issue with stating your own opinions like they are facts. I went to a tinnitus camp here in Calgary and found that most of the group just gave up on hearing aids rather than going for fitting after fitting. Maybe it is unusual to go for 12 fittings, and maybe it is more usual to give up after a couple times. I don't know, it kind of irrelevant anyway. What is relevent is that the patient experienced the occlusion effect like A LOT of people do which has been proven! There are literly hundreds of posts online about this!! Just google it man!!!
Yes the occlusion effect is the same regardless of what is blocking the canal. As soon as you seal the ear this occurs. The depth and the materials (there may be a slight dampening) used will be a very slight factor, but that is it.
For the last time I'm not saying it's dangerous, I'm also not saying it isn't. I'm simply stating that this could be of some concern to many here. I have described in my own case how it is too loud for me, I have also posted an example of how this effect can reach very high sound presure levels JUST THROUGH NORMAL SPEACH (110bd!). At this point you have to just use your own common sense!!
Thank God you aren't the one addressing this issue and that the hearing aid/ear plug companies are working on this. The team addressing this problem would have to spend all day with you just convincing you that this is indeed a real problem that exsists for many people.
If this isn't a issue for you great!! Please have a little understanding that it is for some.
I have to go to the football today. I'll be wearing ear plugs as normal, but if we score obviously I shout. I worry as if I shout at 100db, 120db to my ears could be what's causing it to get worse! Any thoughts?
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
- Tinnitus Since
- 1999
- Cause of Tinnitus
- karma
Telis, we don't have to agree on this. But, you still have not addressed the single question I've asked several times: if this is a legitimate concern, why is it that every ENT and hearing specialist out there is telling people to use earplugs in social situations with excessive background noise? Are they all stupid and bad at their jobs?
For what it's worth, you are more literate and comprehensible from your phone than a lot of people are in person!
It is not my opinion. The author of the paper said that this was a "case of last resort" with 12 failed fittings, and made references to the excessive db reading as a result of the person's unusual phsyiology. That's not my opinion, it's what's right there in the text.
I did. I found lots of people who are annoyed or bothered by this. I have found, to date, zero cases of hearing damage or loss as a result.
I never said it was not annoying or bothersome, I said it seems pretty unlikely to me to be dangerous.
For what it's worth, you are more literate and comprehensible from your phone than a lot of people are in person!
It is not my opinion. The author of the paper said that this was a "case of last resort" with 12 failed fittings, and made references to the excessive db reading as a result of the person's unusual phsyiology. That's not my opinion, it's what's right there in the text.
I did. I found lots of people who are annoyed or bothered by this. I have found, to date, zero cases of hearing damage or loss as a result.
I never said it was not annoying or bothersome, I said it seems pretty unlikely to me to be dangerous.
I agree, but for me common sense comes down to "every ENT and hearing specialist I've ever seen has adamantly insisted that usual social situations with earplugs are completely safe, so it would be unreasonable for me to think that's not true unless I have some clear evidence it's not, which I don't."
I didn't say it wasn't an issue for me. I find earplugs uncomfortable, they make internal noises uncomfortable, and they hurt my ears. What I don't find them is "pointless", because it's pretty clear that even if they are uncomfortable, they protect hearing.
- Nov 10, 2013
- 464
- 41
- Tinnitus Since
- 2005
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Bad luck and bad genes
Here is an interesting read:
The Occlusion Effect of Earplugs per insertion Depth, Earplug Type, and Excitation Source
Link to PDF:
http://www.hearingconservation.org/associations/10915/files/Lee_Kichol.pdf
Basically it says there is an optimal insertion length for ear plugs so it minimizes occlusion effect.
The Occlusion Effect of Earplugs per insertion Depth, Earplug Type, and Excitation Source
Link to PDF:
http://www.hearingconservation.org/associations/10915/files/Lee_Kichol.pdf
Basically it says there is an optimal insertion length for ear plugs so it minimizes occlusion effect.
First of all, ear plugs are by far the best device you can use, other than ear muffs, in loud environments. The occlusion effect is well known by everyone who's ever stuck plugs in their ears, especially the foam ones; which is why I don't use them. Even just getting water trapped in your ear creates the occlusion effect.
I read through most of the thread and then just lost the will to live. Sorry that's just how I see it sometimes on here. You've just got to go with what's safe; the occlusion effect with musicians earplugs is nothing to speak of at all. They are hollow and go to the perfect depth to drastically reduce it.
You are still far better off using foam earplugs than nothing at all. Rating the occlusion effect at anywhere near 120db is going a bit far. The front row of a rock concert is around 110db right by the speakers, that's half the perceived volume, or more accurately, a reduction just under twice the sound pressure level. Do you really believe the occlusion is anywhere near that level?
If you are going somewhere loud, USE earplugs. @Telis, Please do not put it into the psychology of the readers here that ear plugs are dangerous. I know you mean well but you come across as far too negative, and there seems to be no solution other than surrender from what I have read in many of your posts. I know you are suffering, we all are, it's a f&cjing horrid condition to have. It's turned my life upside down that's for sure.
That being said, if some one invites me to something, I grab my ear plugs and I go. To avoid all of life's big events would be devastating to me, especially if it boiled down to worrying if the occlusion effect is going to hurt me. At some point life itself is going to hurt you, we can't always be completely molly coddled.
I read through most of the thread and then just lost the will to live. Sorry that's just how I see it sometimes on here. You've just got to go with what's safe; the occlusion effect with musicians earplugs is nothing to speak of at all. They are hollow and go to the perfect depth to drastically reduce it.
You are still far better off using foam earplugs than nothing at all. Rating the occlusion effect at anywhere near 120db is going a bit far. The front row of a rock concert is around 110db right by the speakers, that's half the perceived volume, or more accurately, a reduction just under twice the sound pressure level. Do you really believe the occlusion is anywhere near that level?
If you are going somewhere loud, USE earplugs. @Telis, Please do not put it into the psychology of the readers here that ear plugs are dangerous. I know you mean well but you come across as far too negative, and there seems to be no solution other than surrender from what I have read in many of your posts. I know you are suffering, we all are, it's a f&cjing horrid condition to have. It's turned my life upside down that's for sure.
That being said, if some one invites me to something, I grab my ear plugs and I go. To avoid all of life's big events would be devastating to me, especially if it boiled down to worrying if the occlusion effect is going to hurt me. At some point life itself is going to hurt you, we can't always be completely molly coddled.
- Nov 10, 2013
- 464
- 41
- Tinnitus Since
- 2005
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Bad luck and bad genes
- Jun 26, 2014
- 2,264
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2013
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Drugs barotrauma
I don't worry that the occlusion effect is going to hurt me, it does hurt me. If that is too negative for you, sorry man, it's just the reality of my situation, too bad.
I'm not just some paranoid jackass sitting around making shit up to worry about for the sake of being negative, these are my real life experiences. If you don't think they can happen, or want to choose to believe that this kind of thing is not possible, go for it.
You don't worry about the occlusion effect hurting you because it doesn't, well for me it does, deal with it.
I wonder if the ET also matters. I wonder because today I had my custom plugs in with -15 dB filters and I said somethhing quite loudly and I really felt it resonate quite hard in one ear. Not in the other, probably because my tube is more open? Hopefully this is no new problem..
Also feel a little pain in that ear..
Also feel a little pain in that ear..
I would like to poiny out gollowing findings:
If earplugs are not inserted ao that there is significamt space between earplug and eardrum - occlusion effect will occur and be a problem.
If earplugs are properly fitted and have almost zero space between earplug and eardrum - occlusion effect does not exist.
I have used both custom and foam for a bit - preference goes towards foam earplugs.
Foam earplugs have the most protection and least amount of problems associated with them. Best bang for your buck.
Now, a lot of people dont like to wear them to public places, however i found decent way of using them in social places.
1) Buy foam earplugs with 32DB NNR (or higher) with volour that matches your skin.
2)Cut about quarter of foam on outter side.
3)Put in your ear and see if it protrudes. Most cases it does not and becomes virtually invisible fpr other people.
I have tested this setup and i feel like it leaves about 26 or 27db NNR (i listened to track on comouter with woofer with standard earplugs and tgese obveousley give the most reduction, then trimmed earplugs - very good amount of reduction and then with 26db NNR custom moulded earplugs. No difference observed between custom moulded 26db NNR earplugs and trimmed foam earplugs.
Hope this helps!
If earplugs are not inserted ao that there is significamt space between earplug and eardrum - occlusion effect will occur and be a problem.
If earplugs are properly fitted and have almost zero space between earplug and eardrum - occlusion effect does not exist.
I have used both custom and foam for a bit - preference goes towards foam earplugs.
Foam earplugs have the most protection and least amount of problems associated with them. Best bang for your buck.
Now, a lot of people dont like to wear them to public places, however i found decent way of using them in social places.
1) Buy foam earplugs with 32DB NNR (or higher) with volour that matches your skin.
2)Cut about quarter of foam on outter side.
3)Put in your ear and see if it protrudes. Most cases it does not and becomes virtually invisible fpr other people.
I have tested this setup and i feel like it leaves about 26 or 27db NNR (i listened to track on comouter with woofer with standard earplugs and tgese obveousley give the most reduction, then trimmed earplugs - very good amount of reduction and then with 26db NNR custom moulded earplugs. No difference observed between custom moulded 26db NNR earplugs and trimmed foam earplugs.
Hope this helps!
Odd to stumble across this thread, I was just wondering about this. I was at a loud restaurant the other day and quickly inserted a musician's earplug. Then I took a bite of a chip . . . oh my gosh, it was insanely loud and made my tinnitus spike. Tried to eat my sandwich and it was the same. Annoying, very annoying.
I have custom molded earplugs with the max protection that I use in loud places. I hate talking with those things in! Especially if I have to raise my voice. It makes my voice so loud.
Are you sure about this? I mean if you are touching the eardrum sure, but what do you mean by almost zero space?
Are you sure about this? I mean if you are touching the eardrum sure, but what do you mean by almost zero space?
Curious about this too. I thought nothing, not even an earplug should touch the eardrum.
100% i use my earplugs on daily basis. Beleive me, get foam ones, cut quarter off on outter side and put them all the way in (almost touching eardrum, but not) and try to talk - will be amaized, world of difference.
P.S.
make sure you have twizers or someth8ng like that to take them out. Take them out by gently rotating while taking out.
This sounds pretty dangerous. There isn't any way to monitor the space between the plug and the drum as you insert it, so you are likely to bump into the drum and realize "oops I went too far". This could be too late: the ear drum is very fragile. There is no guide to do it safely every time.
I appreciate that you've done this enough to feel confident about it, but I'm unsure about recommending this to others.
How can you damage eardrum with FOAM earplug if not worn for hours ? Its easy so feel how close it is and you do same with reg foam earplug, no difference.
Zenyatta
Member
- Jun 4, 2017
- 118
- Tinnitus Since
- 2012/2017(spike)
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Unknown/Ear-tooth infection
Eh, I managed to poke my eardrum with normal foam earplugs and it was hella painful... it's really easy to mess up if you don't know what you're doing.
I don't think it is easy to determine how much space is left between the ear plug (or anything else really) and your ear drum. It's a gap that decreases as you insert the object deeper in the canal, and you have no way to see it or measure it, so you don't know when to stop. You're just eyeballing it (pun intended): sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.
What it is that you put in the ear canal doesn't matter (i.e. FOAM, reg foam, q-tip, etc).
Accidents about things being pushed in too far and hitting the drum happen all the time.
How can a person "know what they are doing"? It's not like you can see how much room you have left before you hit the drum.
Unless the plugs are specially designed for your ear canal and contours, such that it will stop in the "right spot", I don't see how you can even "know what you're doing", physically speaking.
"Push, push, push... ouch! back off! I hit the drum!"
BTE types of hearing aids have a speaker wire getting into the ear canal, with a very specific length designed to be optimally placed in the canal without risking contact with the drum. These lengths aren't random - they are adjusted by the audiologist.
Zenyatta
Member
- Jun 4, 2017
- 118
- Tinnitus Since
- 2012/2017(spike)
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Unknown/Ear-tooth infection
I know - I wasn't claiming that you weren't agreeing. I was just curious about a method that allows for safe insertion. I don't know of any, but your claim about "knowing what you're doing" got me curious and I thought that maybe I didn't know of a trick that allowed to do this safely, so I wanted to learn.
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