Oticon More™ Hearing Aids Silenced My Friend's Tinnitus

[ping@LA]

My friend Markus has had Meniere's since 2011, as a result, he lost his hearing in his left ear and has high-pitched tinnitus. His tinnitus is very severe and in high pitched and loud volume 7 out of 10, he told me even in the night club he can still hear it clearly.

Recently, he went to his doctor to try on hearing aids. Supposedly the hearing aids came with AI advanced technology to filter out sounds or train your brain to recognize different types of sounds to support your brain. We don't exactly know how it works. The main point is that soon as he put on the hearing aids, within a couple of minutes, the sound of his tinnitus also disappeared completely! Not masking it with other sounds --- his tinnitus was just gone. But when he takes the hearing aids off, within a minute or two the sound of tinnitus comes back.

I still think this is awesome news and a miracle for my friend. It is possible to enjoy quietness even if it's with hearing aids, my friend experienced silence for the first time after 10 years.

I don't know who will be reading this but I hope this can work for you. For many of you who are looking for a permanent cure for tinnitus this is probably not it, but don't be discouraged. For many who suffer from both hearing loss and tinnitus, this might help both.

My friend says it's like $3,500 but his insurance covers some. I'm NOT recommending you to buy it. Don't buy it. Maybe take the time and go try it yourself. He tried it on for 30 minutes and tinnitus was gone that entire time. He is getting it after he met his insurance deductible.

This is the hearing aid brand he tried:
Oticon More™ Hearing Aids

This might not be the only one or the right one for you. There may be other ones with advanced technology that works. Something like the sound of tinnitus is from the brain, not the ears for some so maybe somehow this advanced hearing aids filtered out some sounds, I really have no clue why it works for my friend.

My tinnitus is not from Meniere's and I don't have hearing loss, but I will try the hearing aids when my friend gets his just to see if it works for me as well. I will come back with more updates.

I hope this information can be helpful to you. Good luck!

Ping

 

[a/d/s]

Is the AI technology the thing they market as BrainHearing?

 

[PeterPan]

Did your friend use the Oticon More 1, 2 or 3? Oticon 1 is a 10 kHz model, 2 and 3 are 8 kHz models.

 

[a/d/s]

I called around and you need an appointment with a hearing specialist ust to demo them. You can't just walk in and try them out.

 

[ping@LA]

Did your friend use the Oticon More 1, 2 or 3? Oticon 1 is a 10 kHz model, 2 and 3 are 8 kHz models.

Oticon More 1.

 

[a/d/s]

I have the Oticon OPN S1 on trial.

I use the high frequency white noise and it's very promising.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't garnered more attention.

Thank you to the OP for suggesting these hearing aids.

 

[Freyja95]

I'm an audiologist working primarily with Oticon devices. This phenomenon is not some kind of mysterious magic that only happens with Oticon More. And it's not something everyone will experience.

Simply, with tinnitus, if you have untreated hearing loss your tinnitus will appear louder; and if you get hearing aids, which gives you access to more sounds, that can both mask and keep your brain focusing on other things. It's not magic.

But definitely always a good idea to get help if you have hearing loss.

 

[Hamsti]

@Freyja95, do you know why it doesn't work for everyone? I've got hearing aids as well, and I'm hearing a lot more than without them... but my tinnitus is staying the same, loudness and tone.

 

[GregCA]

Simply, with tinnitus, if you have untreated hearing loss your tinnitus will appear louder; and if you get hearing aids, which gives you access to more sounds, that can both mask and keep your brain focusing on other things. It's not magic.

Given that many (especially because of presbycusis) have high frequency hearing loss (as in > 8 kHz), what's a hearing aid that will help them? As far as I can tell, most hearing aids max out at 8 kHz (actually more like 7 kHz when we look at the frequency response chart), with one or two claiming to reach 10 kHz.

We've had tech to create sounds with energy all the way to 22 kHz for a very long time, and the higher the frequency, the smaller the "tweeter" required, so we're not talking about adding a subwoofer behind the ear: we should have enough real estate. Why aren't we seeing hearing aids with high frequency support? Even latest "unconventional" hearing aids such as Bose's don't cover high frequencies.

 

[a/d/s]

Simply, with tinnitus, if you have untreated hearing loss your tinnitus will appear louder; and if you get hearing aids, which gives you access to more sounds, that can both mask and keep your brain focusing on other things. It's not magic.

But definitely always a good idea to get help if you have hearing loss.

I don't have any hearing loss, and the Oticon hearing aids work for me.

 

[Freyja95]

Given that many (especially because of presbycusis) have high frequency hearing loss (as in > 8 kHz), what's a hearing aid that will help them? As far as I can tell, most hearing aids max out at 8 kHz (actually more like 7 kHz when we look at the frequency response chart), with one or two claiming to reach 10 kHz.

We've had tech to create sounds with energy all the way to 22 kHz for a very long time, and the higher the frequency, the smaller the "tweeter" required, so we're not talking about adding a subwoofer behind the ear: we should have enough real estate. Why aren't we seeing hearing aids with high frequency support? Even latest "unconventional" hearing aids such as Bose's don't cover high frequencies.

The reason for why most hearing aids max out at 8 kHz is because it's within that you have the majority of speech sounds. Hearing aids primarily exist to aid communication and hearing speech, and for that, the amplification of higher frequencies is not vital.

From what I know, that's the answer for why things are as they are. But why not make hearing aids that also amplify higher frequencies? I'm not sure. Perhaps because then you'd have to also measure those frequencies during the hearing test, which would add time (time is money etc), and it might not be considered worth it since as I said it's not as vital for speech.

 

[Padraigh Griffin]

I don't have any hearing loss, and the Oticon hearing aids work for me.

I'm considering Oticon Aids, and would like a bit more information. Do you get significant tinnitus relief from Oticon? May I ask what your tinnitus is like, severity and tone?

 

[Christiaan]

@Freyja95, do you know why it doesn't work for everyone? I've got hearing aids as well, and I'm hearing a lot more than without them... but my tinnitus is staying the same, loudness and tone.

Hope you won't mind me answering this

From what I gather on Tinnitus Talk and some scientific papers, it seems that people are more helped by hearing aids if their tinnitus frequency is covered within the frequency spectrum of those devices. And normally, good hearing aids just cover between 125 Hz and 8000 Hz. So, there's something to say that some people with a pure 500 Hz buzz are helped with a hearing aid, while others who have a 9000 Hz high pitched hissing sound do not notice a difference in their tinnitus.

FWIW, I also tried some hearing aids for my mild hearing loss. Unfortunately, both Oticon Opn1 S and More did not do their magic in my case. Oh well, there's still tons of stuff to try for us lot

 

[Wrfortiscue]

Is there a worry that hearing aids can flip out and screech in your ear or something? Or do I watch too many movies? Lol.

Also, how do you protect your ears with hearing aids? Earmuffs?

 

[kingsfan]

Is there a worry that hearing aids can flip out and screech in your ear or something? Or do I watch too many movies? Lol.

Also, how do you protect your ears with hearing aids? Earmuffs?

I don't understand hearing aids either. Don't they just increase the volume on certain frequencies? So you've got an amplified 6 kHz wavelength smashing through all of your 18-7 kHz (or whatever) stereocilia?

 

[Christiaan]

Is there a worry that hearing aids can flip out and screech in your ear or something? Or do I watch too many movies? Lol.

Also, how do you protect your ears with hearing aids? Earmuffs?

I had a similar experience with the old Oticon Opn1 S model. But it's mostly a sort of microphone feedback sound that you hear when you cup your ears really fast or rub the back side of the hearing aids. The new More model seems to have a better counter feedback system against sudden external stimuli.

Edit: I think you can also wear earmuffs in combination with your hearing aids. I tried this myself and it didn't pose any problem. But I'd say that it's best to gently put it on your ears to avoid feedback.

 

[Christiaan]

I don't understand hearing aids either. Don't they just increase the volume on certain frequencies? So you've got an amplified 6 kHz wavelength smashing through all of your 18-7 kHz (or whatever) stereocilia?

Well, I'd say that if that were to happen, the audiologist would do a pretty bad job. In my case, the audiologist made sure that the amplification on specific frequencies were gradually amplified vis-à-vis surrounding frequencies (e.g. just +3 dB max on 6 kHz vs. 4/8 kHz) Why? Well, according to my audiologist, it's important that the hearing aid patient receives sound as naturally as possible, and that won't certainly be the case if you have strong amplification on a specific frequency. It would sound too ''mechanically'' and may even be risky for people who have hyperacusis.

 

[Hamsti]

Hope you won't mind me answering this

From what I gather on Tinnitus Talk and some scientific papers, it seems that people are more helped by hearing aids if their tinnitus frequency is covered within the frequency spectrum of those devices. And normally, good hearing aids just cover between 125 Hz and 8000 Hz. So, there's something to say that some people with a pure 500 Hz buzz are helped with a hearing aid, while others who have a 9000 Hz high pitched hissing sound do not notice a difference in their tinnitus.

FWIW, I also tried some hearing aids for my mild hearing loss. Unfortunately, both Oticon Opn1 S and More did not do their magic in my case. Oh well, there's still tons of stuff to try for us lot

Of course you can always answer my questions My hearing loss starts at around 2 kHz, but my tinnitus (also) consists of lower tones that the hearing aid (just like the high tones) does not mask. According to popular belief, I should a) not have deep-tone tinnitus and b) it should definitely be at least partially masked. Unfortunately, neither of these is the case with me. And I have a hearing aid with more channels than usual... crap. I believe that it only works if you have tonal tinnitus that is limited to one frequency.

I'm very sorry that hearing aids didn't work for you either!

 

[Wrfortiscue]

Well, I'd say that if that were to happen, the audiologist would do a pretty bad job. In my case, the audiologist made sure that the amplification on specific frequencies were gradually amplified vis-à-vis surrounding frequencies (e.g. just +3 dB max on 6 kHz vs. 4/8 kHz) Why? Well, according to my audiologist, it's important that the hearing aid patient receives sound as naturally as possible, and that won't certainly be the case if you have strong amplification on a specific frequency. It would sound too ''mechanically'' and may even be risky for people who have hyperacusis.

Thanks for explaining that

 

[Shelly75]

I have a 35 dB dip at 6 kHz and if I play a recording of 6 kHz on YouTube, I struggle to hear it. Would that mean my hearing loss is the same as my tinnitus frequency? I've never thought of hearing aids but maybe it is an option. The rest of my hearing is within normal limits up to 8 kHz.

Thanks for any replies.

 

[Christiaan]

Of course you can always answer my questions My hearing loss starts at around 2 kHz, but my tinnitus (also) consists of lower tones that the hearing aid (just like the high tones) does not mask. According to popular belief, I should a) not have deep-tone tinnitus and b) it should definitely be at least partially masked. Unfortunately, neither of these is the case with me. And I have a hearing aid with more channels than usual... crap. I believe that it only works if you have tonal tinnitus that is limited to one frequency.

I'm very sorry that hearing aids didn't work for you either!

Ah, alright!

Well, if you think it's unlikely that your deep tone tinnitus is below 2 kHz because of your audiogram, then maybe it's an issue of hidden hearing loss? We all know that audiograms do not give the full picture of our hearing. Audiologists only measure your hearing on fixed frequency points, such as 125 Hz, 500 Hz, 1 kHz, etc. But they don't measure between those frequencies or even below something like <125 Hz, and that's where the cookie crumbles.

Take this case + accompanying picture for example. So someone takes part in an audiogram test and finds out that he has normal hearing. As you can see in the following picture, he doesn't seem to have a lot of hearing loss on 2 kHz & 4 kHz (black line). However, the person has not been tested on the frequencies between 2-4 kHz, but he may have hearing loss in that area. In the same picture, you can see a red line that shows a deep notch between those frequencies, which tells us that the person indeed has (hidden) hearing loss. And this is just one of many examples why audiogram tests aren't flawless.

Here's btw a link to a website if you want to know more about it: https://canadianaudiologist.ca/feature-1/

I don't know if hearing aids work better for tonal tinnitus vs. atonal tinnitus, but you may be right. If you still want to use hearing aids for your tinnitus, it's maybe worth a try to ask your audiologist to slightly change the amplification of your devices and see if that makes a difference. Another thing is trying a newer model, like Oticon More. More seems to provide more input due to its high-end, deep-learning AI and that may give people more relief than using an older or medium-priced hearing aid.

Anyway, thanks for attending my TED Talk on hidden hearing loss & hearing aids

 

[GregCA]

I don't have any hearing loss, and the Oticon hearing aids work for me.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, though. When you say you have no hearing loss, are you saying it because you have a "perfect audiogram"?

 

[kingsfan]

My main killer tone is somewhere around 4600 Hz. My audiograms always come out amazing. I wonder if I actually have a dip somewhere between 4-5 kHz.

 

[Christiaan]

I have a 35 dB dip at 6 kHz and if I play a recording of 6 kHz on YouTube, I struggle to hear it. Would that mean my hearing loss is the same as my tinnitus frequency? I've never thought of hearing aids but maybe it is an option. The rest of my hearing is within normal limits up to 8 kHz.

Thanks for any replies.

Oomph, that's a tricky question @Shelly75. It depends for the most part of what the cause is of your tinnitus. For those with somatic tinnitus, pulsatile tinnitus or sensorineural tinnitus, their issues correspond mostly to neck dysfunction, blood vessel disorders and damage in the inner ear/auditory nerve, not so much with hearing per se.

For those with noise induced hearing loss, it's probably easier to pinpoint that someone's hearing damage has something to do with the specific nature of their tinnitus. In clinical terms, there seems to be a correlation between the maximum hearing loss in frequency spectrum & particular tinnitus pitch/frequency. The study of Schecklmann et al. (2012) seems to confirm your hypothesis and might give also some other insights concerning your question.
____________________________________________________________________________________

Relationship between Audiometric slope and tinnitus pitch in tinnitus patients: insights into the mechanisms of tinnitus generation (Schecklmann et al., 2012)

Abstract
Background: Different mechanisms have been proposed to be involved in tinnitus generation, among them reduced lateral inhibition and homeostatic plasticity. On a perceptual level these different mechanisms should be reflected by the relationship between the individual audiometric slope and the perceived tinnitus pitch. Whereas some studies found the tinnitus pitch corresponding to the maximum hearing loss, others stressed the relevance of the edge frequency. This study investigates the relationship between tinnitus pitch and audiometric slope in a large sample.

Methodology: This retrospective observational study analyzed 286 patients. The matched tinnitus pitch was compared to the frequency of maximum hearing loss and the edge of the audiogram (steepest hearing loss) by t-tests and correlation coefficients. These analyses were performed for the whole group and for sub-groups (uni- vs. bilateral (117 vs. 338 ears), pure-tone vs. narrow-band (340 vs. 115 ears), and low and high audiometric slope (114 vs. 113 ears)).

Findings: For the right ear, tinnitus pitch was in the same range and correlated significantly with the frequency of maximum hearing loss, but differed from and did not correlate with the edge frequency. For the left ear, similar results were found but the correlation between tinnitus pitch and maximum hearing loss did not reach significance. Sub-group analyses (bi- and unilateral, tinnitus character, slope steepness) revealed identical results except for the sub-group with high audiometric slope which revealed a higher frequency of maximum hearing loss as compared to the tinnitus pitch.

Conclusion: The study-results confirm a relationship between tinnitus pitch and maximum hearing loss but not to the edge frequency, suggesting that tinnitus is rather a fill-in-phenomenon resulting from homeostatic mechanisms, than the result of deficient lateral inhibition. Sub-group analyses suggest that audiometric steepness and the side of affected ear affect this relationship. Future studies should control for these potential confounding factors.

 

[Christiaan]

My main killer tone is somewhere around 4600 Hz. My audiograms always come out amazing. I wonder if I actually have a dip somewhere between 4-5 kHz.

There's no professional setting I can think of where you can check if you have a dip in those specific frequencies. But it can't hurt to try Szynalski's tone generator and slowly swipe from 4 kHz to 5 kHz and see if the volume (which you've fixed on 20% for example) remains constant or goes up & down. It might provide you with the clue if there's hearing loss in that spectrum. Credits go to @HootOwl for this nifty tip btw.

Here's the link to Szynalski's ton generator:
https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

 

[Ben Winders]

@Christiaan, it's taken me a while to get over my own pride, or whatever is left of it, and to make an appointment with a hearing aid shop for this Friday.

My audiogram looks like that of a newborn baby (according to all doctors), apart from a 20 dB dip around 4000 Hz.

As you know my main tinnitus monster is a low humming drone, so I probably/logically have hearing loss at a very low frequency. Since you have that fun thing too, I wonder if you agree that a hearing aid won't probably do much for a low humming tinnitus orrr... is the low humming a fun "side effect" of my 4000 Hz dip (and accompanying high pitch tinnitus)? > "fixing the 4000 Hz dip would also fix the drone", or is that (again) wishful thinking?

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Christiaan]

@Christiaan, it's taken me a while to get over my own pride, or whatever is left of it, and to make an appointment with a hearing aid shop for this Friday.

My audiogram looks like that of a newborn baby (according to all doctors), apart from a 20 dB dip around 4000 Hz.

As you know my main tinnitus monster is a low humming drone, so I probably/logically have hearing loss at a very low frequency. Since you have that fun thing too, I wonder if you agree that a hearing aid won't probably do much for a low humming tinnitus orrr... is the low humming a fun "side effect" of my 4000 Hz dip (and accompanying high pitch tinnitus)? > "fixing the 4000 Hz dip would also fix the drone", or is that (again) wishful thinking?

Appreciate your thoughts.

Een goedendag uit het koude Noorden, @Ben Winders

Low humming as a byproduct of your 4 kHz dip? Wow, that would be a hell of an interesting side effect. I don't think it's that likely There's only one particular study (see Sereda et al., 2015) that suggests that the tinnitus frequency corresponds to an octave above the damaged frequency bandwidth of our hearing. But the results of this study do not seem to replicate in a lot of other studies, so it's still a question of how valid and reliable that theoretical assumption is.

Well, the thing about the hearings aids is that it would probably not work for people with ultra low tinnitus. I've tried Oticon hearing aids for about 2 months, but it did nothing for my low frequency tinnitus. But then again, my tinnitus sounds exceptionally low. A bit like a rumble from a truck engine, somewhere around 60-80 Hz. Maybe yours is a bit higher? It might be worth a try to use these hearing aids and see if it works to your advantage? I would certainly try it if I were you

 

[GregCA]

Is there a worry that hearing aids can flip out and screech in your ear or something?

Depends how likely you are to worry about events that have a low probability of happening.

I don't understand hearing aids either. Don't they just increase the volume on certain frequencies? So you've got an amplified 6 kHz wavelength smashing through all of your 18-7 kHz (or whatever) stereocilia?

A 6 kHz sound wave wouldn't be smashing a very large range of your stereocilia, by definition of the tonotopical map. It would focus the energy on a very small area of the cochlea, and that wouldn't be great.

Hearing aids use filters (DSP nowadays) to amplify certain frequencies, but these filters don't just amplify one main frequency: they also amplify neighboring frequencies as well for a smooth amplification curve.

 

[Ben Winders]

Een goedendag uit het koude Noorden, @Ben Winders

Low humming as a byproduct of your 4 kHz dip? Wow, that would be a hell of an interesting side effect. I don't think it's that likely There's only one particular study (see Sereda et al., 2015) that suggests that the tinnitus frequency corresponds to an octave above the damaged frequency bandwidth of our hearing. But the results of this study do not seem to replicate in a lot of other studies, so it's still a question of how valid and reliable that theoretical assumption is.

Well, the thing about the hearings aids is that it would probably not work for people with ultra low tinnitus. I've tried Oticon hearing aids for about 2 months, but it did nothing for my low frequency tinnitus. But then again, my tinnitus sounds exceptionally low. A bit like a rumble from a truck engine, somewhere around 60-80 Hz. Maybe yours is a bit higher? It might be worth a try to use these hearing aids and see if it works to your advantage? I would certainly try it if I were you

My regular drone sits at 80 Hz. On some days it drops lower for a few seconds and then it suddenly sits around 65 Hz. In the mornings it is a bit higher and is more in the head than in the ear.

The byproduct theory is based on a couple things:

1) All the specialists I saw said it was in fact "really hard" to get damage in the lower frequencies and if you, for example, go to a Rammstein concert with a lot of loud LOW frequency bass sound, it would just as easily ripple into causing damage in the 4000 Hz range.

2) At the same time I got my drone, I also got my static buzz (at a higher frequency) and that 20 dB dip at 4000 Hz (remember: I caused my damage by listening to a fan noise app, it was low but it wasn't as low as 85 dB).

3) A famous Dutch hardstyle DJ I am in contact with also has a drone, and he has a 70 dB (!) dip at 4000 Hz.

I guess if we have this drone due to actual low frequency hearing loss, we're in trouble as it seems all meds in the pipeline only target to solve higher frequency loss. I guess the lower frequencies are too deep in the cochlea to reach?

Also hearing aids don't cater for low frequency hearing loss, as you already stated.

The only good thing I currently see is that even very low volume drone input through in-ear headphones completely turns my drone off, so there's my safety parachute if all else fails.

 

[kingsfan]

There's no professional setting I can think of where you can check if you have a dip in those specific frequencies. But it can't hurt to try Szynalski's tone generator and slowly swipe from 4 kHz to 5 kHz and see if the volume (which you've fixed on 20% for example) remains constant or goes up & down. It might provide you with the clue if there's hearing loss in that spectrum. Credits go to @HootOwl for this nifty tip btw.

Here's the link to Szynalski's ton generator:
https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

I went through it really sloppy as I hate listening to those tones. But the volume seems slighty softer around 4,446 Hz. Hmmmm...

And now my ringing is angry with me.