Problem With the Idea That in Silence Everyone Will Start to Experience Tinnitus?

[KingRoanoke]

What does it matter? The goal is to figure out how to live with it. What will we do with the information regarding whether or not everyone experiences is it in a quiet room? It is like when people bring up statistics about how many people are suicidal or are living disabled by the condition. I can't do anything with that information.

 

[Mpt]

67% after its been suggested to the participants to report if they hear anything... you could probably sit them in a booth and suggest that they report any foot pain they have and get a 50% hit rate... The trt crowd won't let facts get in the way of their little theory... Jastebroff's "The model" is just a story... No hard science here people

 

[RichL]

67% after its been suggested to the participants to report if they hear anything... you could probably sit them in a booth and suggest that they report any foot pain they have and get a 50% hit rate... The trt crowd won't let facts get in the way of their little theory... Jastebroff's "The model" is just a story... No hard science here people

My point exactly, A study that resulted in nothing of consequence!

 

[leelo]

Rich hope is a waste of time. Get on with your life. You hype for no reason. No matter how much you run on with ppl and facts you will still hear your T for the rest of your life.
This thread is for support not false hope.
You just mad cause the Dr. Did not say what you wanted to hear. Thats life suck it up

 

[RichL]

Rich hope is a waste of time. Get on with your life. You hype for no reason. No matter how much you run on with ppl and facts you will still hear your T for the rest of your life.
This thread is for support not false hope.

I am getting on with my life and you have missed the whole point! Geeesh!

 

[Dr. Nagler]

The research community has yet to agree on a definition for tinnitus. The research community has yet to agree on what it means to cure tinnitus. These are incredibly basic concepts. But the research community is stymied.

There are loads of reasons I don't believe there will ever be a cure for tinnitus. BUT I COULD BE WRONG AND FREELY ADMIT IT.


Stephen Nagler

 

[RichL]

Oh shoot me already.

The research community has yet to agree on a definition for tinnitus. The research community has yet to agree on what it means to cure tinnitus. These are incredibly basic concepts. But the research community is stymied.

There are loads of reasons I don't believe there will ever be a cure for tinnitus. BUT I COULD BE WRONG AND FREELY ADMIT IT.

So stop getting your shorts in a wad if you disagree with me. I'm one voice. Sheesh!

Or like I said, shoot me.

Stephen Nagler

It's not the fact that I disagree with you, it is the fact that you are wrong to base your opinion on bad science that has not even been verified or accepted as a sound scientific conclusion.

With all due respect, Regards Rich.

 

[RichL]

I just think when a person who has a Dr on the front of his or her name says to a new T sufferer that there is no hope for a cure it starts to tread on dangerous ground for the new sufferer that suddenly thinks there is no hope at all,
That's when suicide suddenly becomes a real choice especially for a younger person who has just got T.
The only thing that keeps most people going through their life is hope!

 

[Mpt]

Maybe that's because the research community has to do real science rather than spin theories and stories like jastebroffs model... Based off of little more than deductive reasoning

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Maybe that's because the research community has to do real science ...

To this point the research community has yet to agree on what tinnitus is no less what a cure might look like. The quality of the science in that regard has been in my opinion absolutely abysmal. And wishing real real real hard for a cure in the absence of any truly meaningful progress over the last couple of decades is not going to change that reality. But if you'd prefer that I lie about it, fine. The cure is just around the corner. Happy now ????

Stephen Nagler

 

[RichL]

To this point the research community has yet to agree on what tinnitus is no less what a cure might look like. The quality of the science in that regard has been in my opinion absolutely abysmal. And wishing real real real hard for a cure in the absence of any truly meaningful progress over the last couple of decades is not going to change that reality. But if you'd prefer that I lie about it, fine. The cure is just around the corner. Happy now ????

Stephen Nagler

I think the research community agrees what it is they have to treat and that is the over active neurons in a T sufferers brain, Dr Nagler, I don't think you give researchers as much credit as you should be giving them!

 

[Mpt]

The silence is unnatural position can't be defended by dr nagler or anyone else because this tenant of jastebroffs theory is flawed, not true... So instead they cite a 60 yr old study and another one with less than impressive results especially given the fact that the power of suggestion plays a role that neither of these studies take into account... the emperor has no clothes, it's a story masquerading as science, that only the unintelligent or in this case the self deluded who have invested a chunk of their life in it can believe, just because someone is well- meaning, that doesn't preclude them or their belief set from being a hindrance to real progress in the search for a cure

 

[Dr. Nagler]

They cannot agree on what a cure is, and they cannot even agree on what it is that they are trying to cure. So you will have to pardon me if I am not particularly enthusiastic.

This has nothing to do with TRT, CBT, or your mother's apple pie. It is simply the reality.

Stephen Nagler

 

[RichL]

The bottom line is that the statement that everybody experiences T given a quiet enough environment is simply not true and the evidence backs this up!
The fact that Dr Nagler and other experts use this to justify anything to do with T is plain wrong and damn right misleading.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Apparently we disagree, Rich. Try not to let it upset you too much, OK?

Stephen Nagler

 

[RichL]

Apparently we disagree, Rich. Try not to let it upset you too much, OK?

Stephen Nagler

The obvious fact that we disagree does not upset me in the slightest, opinions based on bad science does!

 

[valeri]

That's why I could kill my husband when he said that I had this noise before but didn't pay attention!!!
Yeah right!!!!

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Really want to get this out there and read peoples thoughts on this.

I was reading Dr Nagler's answer to this question here..https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-research.5189/#post-52018 and I disagree with the good docs conclusion or opinion that there will never be a cure for T.
My problem is with this statement.
'If you take someone with perfect hearing and place them in a silent environment they will start to experience Tinnitus!' so because of this statement they come to this conclusion.."So the existence of tinnitus is a normal physiological phenomenon." Which in turn leads Dr Nagler to the conclusion that there will never be a cure for T because it is a normal physiological phenomenon!

I disagree!

Excluding fleeting T which we all know that every person on our planet with good functioning ears experience's fleeting T and maybe even people without functioning ears as well! ( have not researched if this happens in the total deaf person or not).
Which for me at least is usually a high pitch ring with temporary deafness (or what seems to be deafness) in the ear that has the fleeting T, It usually only lasts for a few seconds before clearing up and leaving no trace that it ever happened, just the memory.

T is not a normal function, it is a reaction from your brain to a problem, the same way that pain is a reaction and as scans of the brain has shown the neurons are firing randomly, obviously from some form of trauma or damage to any part of the auditory system, whether it be from disease, loud noise's or some other underlying problem that can go undetected and be diagnosed as an "I don't know how or why you got T".
It may be a so called physiological phenomenon but to call it normal is plain wrong IMO.

The so called Tinnitus that people without T get in a quiet environment is not the T that you or I have got all the time, for one thing ours is louder and if I may hazard a guess is a different tone to THE SOUND OF SILENCE that these people who describe the noise say that they hear in a quiet environment.
I make this statement because I remember before I had T when I valued my silence, I would deliberately put myself into the most quiet situations I could because I loved the sound of silence and I remember it well and guess what? it was way different to what I'm experiencing now and I wonder how many of these people who describe a noise in a quiet environment are in the percentage of people with T who don't let it concern them so are not experiencing the sound of silence at all but actually have T and didn't know it!

My 15 year old son can hear tones right up to 15000hz on the generalfuzz website so has pretty damn good hearing he has been in really quiet situations where he describes it as being so quiet that it starts to be a bit scary, when I asked him does he start to hear anything like tones, ringing, hissing etc he does not hear anything like that just the sound of silence.
Which leads me to believe that all people will experience T in quiet enough situations is not entirely right so therefore the T that we suffer with is a symptom that like all symptoms have a cause that given enough time and finances will have a cure eventually.

Halfway through writing this I decided to do some research on Heller & Bergman and low and behold I find that the study was very shabbily done in my view and to quote this study when coming to any conclusion about T is IMO not very thorough!

This is a direct quote from Bergman:
Yes, it was about the mid-1950s. I took 100 people with normal hearing and placed them in the sound booth for some 15 minutes or so. As you can imagine, more than 90 percent of them heard whistling, buzzing, and other sounds. Then I did the same thing with 100 people with hearing loss. The obvious conclusion was simply even people with normal hearing hear tinnitus, but because their hearing is so good, the everyday acoustic environment masks their ability to perceive their tinnitus.

This to me was not a very scientific study at all , allot of T sufferers have very good hearing yet loud tinnitus.
90% of people have extremely mild tinnitus that it is impossible to hear even in silent surroundings!

I think it is a very pessimistic and a defeatist view to think that a cure will never eventuate which I believe is derived from an opinion based on bad science and a view I do not share at all!

Look forward to anyone's thoughts on this.

Rich

I understand your concern; I appreciate your line of thinking.

Here's my input for what it is worth.

1) You place too much weight on what doctors have to say. Doctors are excellent at dealing with problems that fall within established practices of medicine. But tinnitus is not one of those areas. Furthermore, the medical community is plagued by a mindset of not challenging the "status quo". Once a certain practice is established, it stays (whether right or wrong). "Ward Fever" is one example; it took Joesph Lister 12-14 years before the use of Carbolic Acid was widely accepted in operating theatres across Europe. And no, it wasn't just because doctors didn't understand germ theory back then - it was because having to prepare a surgery using Joseph Lister's instructions for disinfection "took too much time"...! The likely death of the patient afterwards was - apparently - less of a concern...
2) It's been a while since I have done some "old school" research on tinnitus. If remember correctly, the "patients" from some of the old experiments did not immediately hear tinnitus in a quiet environment; tinnitus was something that developed over a few minutes or so - and very mild at that; different from someone with "real" tinnitus. Some of the experiments were cleverly done in the sense that the patients were led to believe they were about to have a hearing test. Therefore the participants expected to hear a sound when in fact none was played. Because they expected to hear something, a psychological component was of course introduced into the experiment. Is this an objective measure of tinnitus (ie. "who wants to fail a hearing test")?
3) Now to your real question. Will there be a cure for tinnitus? Is tinnitus normal? No, tinnitus is not normal. In a certain sense, you already know that (RE your conversation with your son). Pathological tinnitus (the kind we suffer from) can be seen via EEG. And EEG scans show a difference between people with- and without tinnitus. I will be having such a scan later this year in Switzerland. In Switzerland, there is a clinic for non-invasive neurosurgery. The professor at the clinic has already treated a few patients for tinnitus (but these were patients suffering from other neurological conditions in the first place ie. tinnitus was a secondary symptom). There will be a cure for tinnitus. The question is when. And when such a cure will be available for the mass market? And which instances of tinnitus will such a cure work for ie. the underlying cause of tinnitus? These are the questions, as I see them.

 

[RichL]

I understand your concern; I appreciate your line of thinking.

Here's my input for what it is worth.

1) You place too much weight on what doctors have to say. Doctors are excellent at dealing with problems that fall within established practices of medicine. But tinnitus is not one of those areas. Furthermore, the medical community is plagued by a mindset of not challenging the "status quo". Once a certain practice is established, it stays (whether right or wrong). "Ward Fever" is one example; it took Joesph Lister 12-14 years before the use of Carbolic Acid was widely accepted in operating theatres across Europe. And no, it wasn't just because doctors didn't understand germ theory back then - it was because having to prepare a surgery using Joseph Lister's instructions for disinfection "took too much time"...! The likely death of the patient afterwards was - apparently - less of a concern...
2) It's been a while since I have done some "old school" research on tinnitus. If remember correctly, the "patients" from some of the old experiments did not immediately hear tinnitus in a quiet environment; tinnitus was something that developed over a few minutes or so - and very mild at that; different from someone with "real" tinnitus. Some of the experiments were cleverly done in the sense that the patients were led to believe they were about to have a hearing test. Therefore the participants expected to hear a sound when in fact none was played. Because they expected to hear something, a psychological component was of course introduced into the experiment. Is this an objective measure of tinnitus (ie. "who wants to fail a hearing test")?
3) Now to your real question. Will there be a cure for tinnitus? Is tinnitus normal? No, tinnitus is not normal. In a certain sense, you already know that (RE your conversation with your son). Pathological tinnitus (the kind we suffer from) can be seen via EEG. And EEG scans show a difference between people with- and without tinnitus. I will be having such a scan later this year in Switzerland. In Switzerland, there is a clinic for non-invasive neurosurgery. The professor at the clinic has already treated a few patients for tinnitus (but these were patients suffering from other neurological conditions in the first place ie. tinnitus was a secondary symptom). There will be a cure for tinnitus. The question is when. And when such a cure will be available for the mass market? And which instances of tinnitus will such a cure work for ie. the underlying cause of tinnitus? These are the questions, as I see them.

Thank you attheedgeofscience

I myself don't place too much weight on what doctors say, my main concern as I previously stated is that when a doctor tells someone new to T that there will probably never be a cure for T and the doctors assumption is based on flawed science, I start having concerns as to how hearing something like that, coming from a doctor, the person who is new to T, especially a young person, may start to have suicidal thoughts which may not have been so prevalent if he hadn't been told by someone who as far as most naive people are concerned know more than them because they are the experts!

Thank you for tackling the issue.

Rich

 

[valeri]

So we have general/medical opinion that t is "normal"!

If we add another opinion to the mix, that majority of people don't suffer and it's only 1-2% that find it bothersome, is it really surprising that we are still chasing a tail cure wise.

No wonder there is no urgency to find cure.

Even though it's potentially "not deadly" it certainly is a life changing condition that brings highly functioning women and men down to their knees.

 

[RichL]

So we have general opinion that everyone or majority of people have t

No, not entirely correct, I am of the opinion that the majority of people don't have T and it is not a normal phenomenon!

If we add another opinion to the mix, that majority of people don't suffer and it's only 1-2% that find it bothersome, is it really surprising that we are still chasing a tail cure wise.

No wonder there is no urgency to find cure.

Even though it's potentially "not deadly" it certainly is a life changing condition that brings highly functioning women and men down to their knees.

Agree!

 

[valeri]

Rich of course it's not normal.
I just changed it to general/medical because I think it goes both ways.

Sorry for confusion!

My own husband is in that general group telling me it's "normal"!!!!
Grrrrrr...... I could just strangle him some days

 

[Lisa88]

As mentioned before somewhere on this site, I think this is a hand holder statement for those with t. I remember complete silence many times throughout my life pre t. I am a musician, and have always been led by my auditory sense. If the experiment indeed placed normal hearing people in a sound proof room and asked them if they could hear sounds, as if in a hearing test, with no external sounds actually being played, then yes, I can see the imagination taking over and hearing sounds in that scenario. But that is a completely different scenario to the statement that "everyone hears tinnitus". Also, researchers claimed that the sounds that were heard were similar to those of tinnitus. Well, with all due respect, tinnitus runs the whole gamut of sounds. To me therefore, this research does not stand up in any way.

 

[Martin69]

Last night my wife was little bit stressed because of loud neighbours.
She became scared when a ringing started in her ears/head.
It went away, but from time to time she has T.
So she definitely can tell if something is ringing or not.
Therefore, T is definitely not normal.
Unfortunately for most of us, it is 24/7 and loud.

 

[Martin69]

Rich of course it's not normal.
I just changed it to general/medical because I think it goes both ways.

Sorry for confusion!

My own husband is in that general group telling me it's "normal"!!!!
Grrrrrr...... I could just strangle him some days

Search on youtube for "the noise tinnitus". Video by MichaelBerardi. Show this your husband. Ask him if this normal. Of course it could be he becomes angry.

 

[lapidus]

Another thing to take in concern regarding that old study is that there is no way to tell if it was tinnitus sounds the participants heard. When a normal hearing person is in a completely quiet setting they will hear sounds of their body. Woshing sounds of their blood, their heart beats and maybe even some hissing like the sound of the ocean. These are all sounds of the body at work. I think it was these kind of sounds the people heard and this is not T.

 

[Stina]

Chinese proverb: The person who says it can't be done should not interrupt the person doing it.

 

[Mal]

This is a coincidence.

Since I got my T, I have learned, that it is far more complex than just a 'sound that has to be muted'. Over the 1,5 of having T, I have been wanting to understand it better, because my whole 'sound image' has changed since my hearing injury. Music sounds different, cars breaking up on the streets make me cringe, the T-sound in my head is also a lot more than just a tone. It mixes in with the sounds, that I am hearing.
Then I started wondering: If a cure exist, that gives me back my silence, would it also give me back my old 'sound image'? Hmm.. It's getting hard for me to distinguish T from the rest of the results of my hearing injury. To me it seems, that T is a complex phenomena, and not something parallel to 'removing a needle from the wheel'. T feels more like a whole new package of hearing.

Just a week ago, I tried to explain my girlfriend why I unfortunately believe, that tinnitus will be nearly impossible to cure. After failing hard at this, I wanted to write a post about my thoughts here on this board to better understand my condition and hear other peoples oppinion. Now it turns out, that there already exists a post very close to my thoughts, and that it explains it better and briefer than I would have done. I will show that post to her.

@Dr. Nagler Thank you for sharing your honest thoughts, they helped me understand my situation better. Though I am not completely giving up on some kind of a cure, I can maybe take better future actions regarding my T.

 

[Ken219]

You guys are exhausting. All I want to do is habituate again. Though it is not a cure it is heaven to me. I believe put in a silent room one will think they hear phantom sound. I know there is plenty junk(false reportings..etc) science. People who have limited resources need to know. I do believe not giving hope is bad advice. I believe this is beyond a debate. It appears to be getting personal. May we just get on to helping each other cope with T.

A professor/PHD once told me forecast the future. Take the cash up front.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Another thing to take in concern regarding that old study is that there is no way to tell if it was tinnitus sounds the participants heard.

Sure there is. When the participants left the booth, they were asked to describe the sounds they had heard (i.e., the sounds they believed the audiologist had introduced to the booth during the experiment.) The variety of sounds - ring, buzz, roar, steam, whistle, crickets, hiss, etc. - were exactly the same sounds described by folks with severe intrusive tinnitus.

The Heller & Bergman study was elegantly conceived and meticulously conducted. The findings have been replicated twice. The study cited earlier in this thread is not what I am taking about, nor do I believe that what people who post here experience is in any way "normal." My views on the subject have been misstated by others posting in this tread.

I do not believe that there will ever be a cure for tinnitus. I base that opinion on a number of factors, the H & B study being but one them. I would like to be wrong in my opinion, and it may well be that I am. It is my carefully considered opinion based on nevertheless, an opinion based on knowledge, experience, and good science.

The takeaway for those of you who suffer from severe intrusive tinnitus is that while I might be wrong in my views on a cure, you would in my opinion be wise to search for meaningful relief through any of a number of effective strategies that do not involve a cure ... and then if a cure does come along - five, ten, twenty fifty years (if ever) from now - it will be a welcome bonus. There is little to lose and much to gain through adopting such a philosophy.

I will no longer be participating in this thread.

Stephen Nagler