Repeated Modified Nerve Blocks and Auditory and Non-Auditory Nerve Stimulation

[David S]

What do you think could be the mechanism of action here? Would it actually suppress the over active synapses in the inner ear or would it just block the signal from reaching the brain? It could also block signals from inflamed muscles etc? Combination of all of this?

If I could get my tinnitus masking level down from 60 dB to around 35 dB, I would consider myself cured.

 

[David S]

Here is a quite recent Lidocaine study:

Transdermal lidocaine as treatment for chronic subjective tinnitus: A Pilot Study

Daniel C. O'Brien (the author) might be a good person to contact.

 

[UKBloke]

r.schaette@ucl.ac.uk (from here, the Name column contains hyperlinked email addresses).

Great, thanks. I'll drop him a line.

 

[Nobody19]

Sounds promising, but we need more studies to back this up. I hope it's legit.

 

[Toby1972]

Who's gonna fly out to South Korea to try this?

I would do it. I am unable to work, quit my job. I have money left over for a few years from my stock shit.

My life consists almost entirely of sleeping very badly and wearing headphones all day if possible, sitting at the PC to partially mask my shitty noises and distract myself from all of it.

Can someone summarize the article and/or visualize the procedure? I can't concentrate on translating something that long in the partly wrong Google translator.

 

[DebInAustralia]

Dear Deb,

I'm sorry to hear you suffer from tinnitus.

Our team aims to promote this treatment widely. We need follow up study with randomized control trial.

It would be takes over 2 years.

I hope to be able to help you soon.

Best regards,
Heon Man Sirh

 

[Jack Straw]

I just received an email back from one of the researchers. They obviously do the procedure at their clinic and the price seems reasonable.

View attachment 49284

Crazy! I bet it won't be long before someone on here tries this.

 

[Freerunner]

I received a second email. It appears the treatment is done 3 times per week. I suppose with a little bargain you can make it 4 times. Otherwise it will take a really long time.

 

[PeterPan]

This looks like a very interesting treatment and hopefully it's legit! Especially interesting is that the results persist for at least the year after treatment.

The data for the patients is presented with the article as an image. I've copied some of the chronic data for each patient from the image to a spreadsheet (attached as Korean Treatment.xlsx).

According to the article:

"Age and tinnitus duration were also associated with poor clinical outcomes because of the likelihood of chronic maladaptive neuroplasticity and complex causes (for example, age-related hearing loss, cochlear cell degeneration, or psycho-emotional pathology) of auditory and non-auditory systems. Therefore, tinnitus should be treated as early as possible after its onset because auditory maladaptive neuroplasticity refractory to the treatment occurs ≥3 months after tinnitus onset."​

which, at least for me (59 years of age and approx 5 years duration), was a bit discouraging.

So, I graphed the VAS reduction at 1 year vs Age and Duration. Doesn't seem to be that much of a difference.

 

[Damocles]

I think we can all agree, this had to be done.

 

[Freerunner]

I would do it. I am unable to work, quit my job. I have money left over for a few years from my stock shit.

My life consists almost entirely of sleeping very badly and wearing headphones all day if possible, sitting at the PC to partially mask my shitty noises and distract myself from all of it.

Can someone summarize the article and/or visualize the procedure? I can't concentrate on translating something that long in the partly wrong Google translator.

The procedure consists of stimulating/blocking your nerves with special needles. Each procedure is around 40-50 minutes. They are done 3-4 times a week and you can do between 5-18 procedures.

The clinic is in South Korea, you can find the contacts detailsin my screenshot.

Best of luck and keep us posted whatever you decide.

 

[UKBloke]

This looks like a very interesting treatment and hopefully it's legit! Especially interesting is that the results persist for at least the year after treatment.

The data for the patients is presented with the article as an image. I've copied some of the chronic data for each patient from the image to a spreadsheet (attached as Korean Treatment.xlsx).

According to the article:

"Age and tinnitus duration were also associated with poor clinical outcomes because of the likelihood of chronic maladaptive neuroplasticity and complex causes (for example, age-related hearing loss, cochlear cell degeneration, or psycho-emotional pathology) of auditory and non-auditory systems. Therefore, tinnitus should be treated as early as possible after its onset because auditory maladaptive neuroplasticity refractory to the treatment occurs ≥3 months after tinnitus onset."​

which, at least for me (59 years of age and approx 5 years duration), was a bit discouraging.

So, I graphed the VAS reduction at 1 year vs Age and Duration. Doesn't seem to be that much of a difference.

View attachment 49316

View attachment 49317

Thanks so much for this. I was a bit discouraged too by the chronic data (55 yo/30 year tinnitus duration) but then noticed there are some chronic patients who still achieved reasonable looking results. My side, if I could reduce current symptoms to how they were say, 3-5 years ago, I would actually consider it a cure.

View attachment 49318

I think we can all agree, this had to be done.

Lol.

 

[Uklawyer]

Our team aims to promote this treatment widely. We need follow up study with randomized control trial.

This suggests that the clinic is serious and understands what needs to be done to prove efficacy. Looks like a really good sign.

 

[Nobody19]

View attachment 49318

I think we can all agree, this had to be done.

Aargh, you beat me to it!

 

[Nobody19]

If I read their mails correctly, they believe this would also help with hyperacusis?

 

[Champ]

Alright, who's doing this? I'm interested in doing this in the next couple years but can't now because of work demands.

 

[Freerunner]

Alright, who's doing this? I'm interested in doing this in the next couple years but can't now because of work demands.

I am sure we need only 1-2 people trying and reporting positive results. Then many more people will go as well. I know I would go if my hyperacusis lessens and I can stand 15 hours on a plane.

 

[Uklawyer]

@Freerunner, are you going to respond to the clinic? If so, any chance you could ask how many of these procedures they have done to date and if they have updated data on all of these now?

I am getting a little impatient now and would be interested in looking into this. I am thinking about overall success rate now and about any possible dangers, although they appear to suggest that there have been no serious adverse effects with injection.

 

[Chinmoku]

I just received an email back from one of the researchers. They obviously do the procedure at their clinic and the price seems reasonable.

View attachment 49284

This is not clear. He says that with insurance it costs $200-300 per session but he mentions that without insurance it's $250-350 hundred dollars per session. Does that mean $25,000-35,000 or do we have a typo here and he means $250-350? Or perhaps he wrote poorly and it is 2500-3500$ per session? Because most insurances don't recognize experimental treatment/foreign doctors so I think for most of us it would be full tariff.

 

[David S]

What's quite interesting is that most sufferers seem to have nothing like pure tone tinnitus. The majority in the study had crickets, escaping steam, buzzing. I find that very encouraging.

 

[Freerunner]

@Freerunner, are you going to respond to the clinic? If so, any chance you could ask how many of these procedures they have done to date and if they have updated data on all of these now?

I am getting a little impatient now and would be interested in looking into this. I am thinking about overall success rate now and about any possible dangers, although they appear to suggest that there have been no serious adverse effects with injection.

Hi man, I think I asked some of the necessary questions such as if the treatment is available, what is the cost, are there any side effects, exact location etc.

Feel free to reach out to them yourself if you come up with any further questions and please share the outcome with the community.

 

[Freerunner]

This is not clear. He says that with insurance it costs $200-300 per session but he mentions that without insurance it's $250-350 hundred dollars per session. Does that mean $25,000-35,000 or do we have a typo here and he means $250-350? Or perhaps he wrote poorly and it is 2500-3500$ per session? Because most insurances don't recognize experimental treatment/foreign doctors so I think for most of us it would be full tariff.

I think they meant $250-350 dollars without insurance. I suppose some South Korean insurance policies may cover this up. There is also a possibility the clinic lists the treatment as another procedure that is included in some insurance company's policies.

 

[Uklawyer]

@Freerunner, how did you contact them? By text?

 

[Freerunner]

@Freerunner, how did you contact them? By text?

Yes, this is the email address: hunman0405@naver.com

 

[David S]

Last person from the study was from December 30, 2018. With this good outcome they must have treated hundreds of patients in 2019-2021. There must be a lot of updated interesting data from the recent years?

It is strange though, that we have not got any reports here from any of the past patients?

 

[Markku]

It is strange though, that we have not got any reports here from any of the past patients?

It's not surprising to me. We have very few South Korean guest visitors, and I recall maybe one or two registered members over the last 10 years who signed up & posted something. And there's the language barrier too. While some people in bigger cities like Seoul (apparently especially in the Gangnam area) are able to converse in English pretty well, they are far more comfortable with Korean. Many of them also use their own local social networks, although platforms like Facebook has risen in popularity especially among the younger generation.

And since westerners really weren't aware of this treatment before last week, there's probably not been much travel to the clinic from foreign countries to get the treatment.

Just my reasoning why we haven't heard about it.

Last person from the study was from December 30, 2018. With this good outcome they must have treated hundreds of patients in 2019-2021. There must be a lot of updated interesting data from the recent years?

You would think so! Let's see what @Uklawyer gets back

 

[Uklawyer]

Any other questions I should ask?

 

[David S]

Found their webpage:

http://www.mtspain.co.kr/

Here they answer some questions about their tinnitus treatment:

http://www.mtspain.co.kr/pg/bbs/board.php?bo_table=sub0707&sca=이명&sfl=wr_10&stx=&nca=

Just use Google translate

 

[Ben Johnson]

I'm assuming there is an Asian/South Korean message board similar to Tinnitus Talk... It would be very beneficial for someone who is bilingual or have a translator filter through the Korean version of Tinnitus Talk and see what the "locals" are saying about this treatment.

Surely, word has spread there and people are talking about the pros and cons of this treatment. If a London or New York clinic were having these results, it would take about a week for it to spread like wildfire.

Does anyone know how to implement this tactic? I sure don't. I speak only English and my southern drawl is so bad the Yankees can barely comprehend, lol.

 

[Jerad]

@UKlawyer, what about the Lidocaine? I had to use a small amount recently (topically) and it spiked me. Should that be a concern for us? Does Lidocaine have to be used for this?