Safe Noise Levels?

[maltese]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to live normally, I'm trying not to let this imaginary noise control my life.

I won't go to clubs or concerts anymore. That's fine, I won't miss it. But what about other situations?

(all dB values measured using an Android app, so probably somewhat inaccurate)

Like walking near a road 60-75dB (I wear my Bose Headphones, no music of course, just using them as some basic proctection)

Home-parties or lecture halls with all those students talking before lecture ~70-80db

Same thing with restaurants and pubs. Is there any rule of a thumb, what sound level (in dB) should be ok for a person with T? For how long?



Guys, I'm relatively young. I turned 20 yesterday.... I can imagine living a happy life with my current tinnitus level, but I'm so scared of it getting worse....

 

[Michael Leigh]

I won't go to clubs or concerts anymore. That's fine, I won't miss it. But what about other situations?

(all dB values measured using an Android app, so probably somewhat inaccurate)

Like walking near a road 60-75dB (I wear my Bose Headphones, no music of course, just using them as some basic proctection)

@maltese
What you are doing is not normal and if you aren't careful you will make your ears more sensitive to sound. From your description I suspect that you have hyperacusis (sensitivity to sound) in addition to tinnitus. The way to treat this is not by using noise cancelling headphones or keeping away from normal everyday sounds. It needs treatment using sound enrichment and possibly wearing white noise generators, under the care of a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist.

I used to have very severe hyperacusis to the point where I had to ask people to lower their voice when talking to me as my ears hurt so much. It was completely cured using sound enrichment and having treatment with a hearing therapist. Sound levels of 80db I can easily cope with. Recently, I went to an amusement arcade where people go to use slot machines. I had my earplugs (just in case) and sound level meter. Sound levels were 100 decibels and I stayed at the venue for over 30mins. I didn't use my earplugs as this was just a test and at the time felt no ill effects. The next day my tinnitus was normal and had no spikes. I wouldn't normally do this as explained it was just a test.

You need to get treatment hiding away from sound and not going to concerts, clubs etc you are allowing tinnitus to rule your life and it will eventually make you miserable. As long as people take the necessary precautions it is unlikely their tinnitus will get worse. Please read the post below.

Michael

Tinnitus, earplugs and nightclubs.

Someone that has tinnitus I believe they should try and live a normal life as they possibly can. This includes going out to clubs, concerts and other venues of entertainment where music is played if they wish to. For some, tinnitus can be difficult to live with without putting further restrictions on their life. However, I also believe taking the necessary precautions is absolutely vital, in preventing noise trauma to the inner ear, which could make the tinnitus louder and more intrusive.

Unfortunately, in some instances a person can be left in a hit or a miss situation, as there is no way of knowing if they have put themselves in harms way until after enjoying a night out, find their tinnitus has become louder and more intrusive over the coming days. One hopes this will be a temporary spike but there is no guarantee this new level of intensity won't become permanent and could require a visit to ENT. Sorry to sound so sobering but these are the facts as I see it.

One way of protecting yourself from inner ear damage is to wear noise-reducing earplugs when going to nightclubs or concerts. They will reduce external sounds, in this case music and fortunately won't impair sound quality, which is so important to most people attending these venues. The earplugs are available in various degrees of attenuation from as little as 9 decibels right up to 25 and even higher. If money is no object, one can buy custom moulded earplugs with the full knowledge they are getting the best ear protection that they can afford.

A word of caution to anyone that might not be in the know. I believe no level of ear protection is one hundred percent safe; so one still needs to be careful when attending nightclubs and concerts and not get carried away in thinking, wearing earplugs is completely safe so anything goes and you can stand next to the speakers all night or right up near to the stage where the music is booming out. Some people might not be aware, if music is loud enough it can still be transferred to the inner ear and reach the cochlear and cause damage via the Mastoid bone. This is a hard piece of bone behind each ear. It is honeycombed and has air pockets within it. Please don't think that it's only midrange and high frequencies that can cause harm. Low bass frequencies, which cause vibrations, will do the same.

Go out and enjoy yourself and have fun but at the same time be prudent and respect your hearing.
Michael

PS: further reading is available at:
https://www.britannica.com/science/ear/Transmission-of-sound-by-bone-conduction

 

[Hopeful1]

Ear plugs dont protect as much as you think.....someone with T crossed a critical point where enough synapses are lost for the neural changes to occur in the brain....so any more loss wilĺ make the T worse.....unlike normal population we dont have the extra synapses where a small loss has no effect.....so we cannot afford to hear anything over 75db and risk futher loss in synapsis.....and hearing loud music is not normal....does any animal in nature go through what our ears go through??

Sound enrichment improves hyperacusis....but the effect is temporary ....a few days after you stop sound enrichment.....hyperacusis will get back to pre sound enrichment levels.

My 2 cents

 

[Candy]

The ENT at the tinnitus info day in London was very vague about sound safety levels...I'm struggling too, always worried...anyhow the told us to have a look at this site:

http://www.plugem.co.uk/how-loud-is-loud/

 

[Michael Leigh]

Sound enrichment improves hyperacusis....but the effect is temporary ....a few days after you stop sound enrichment.....hyperacusis will get back to pre sound enrichment levels.
My 2 cents

With all due respect @Hopeful1, your comments are wrong regarding any relief of hyperacusis being temporary. If hyperacusis is treated properly, by this I mean: wearing white noise generators under the care of a hearing therapist as part of TRT (tinnitus retraining therapy) it will be completely cured. However, If a person deliberately subjects their auditory system to loud sounds then it might return.

As I explained in my previous post, my hyperacusis was so severe I had to ask people to lower their voice when talking to me as my ears hurt so much. That was twenty years ago. I had TRT for two years. Wearing white noise generators for 10hrs a day and using a sound machine at night. I was also under the care of a hearing therapist and having tinnitus counselling. My tinnitus reduced to a level where I could hardly hear it and my hyperaucusis was completely cured.

In 2008 my tinnitus increased to insurmountable levels due to noise exposure but my hyperacusis did not return and still hasn't.
Hyperacusis like tinnitus comes in different forms of intensity. Mild, moderate and severe. Sometimes it can be cured naturally without using any form of sound enrichment. In severe cases a person needs to be having TRT treatment which includes wearing white noise generators, having tinnitus counselling and using a sound machine at night.

Unless a person does the above the hyperacusis will not be cured. It is one of the main reasons people get spikes in their tinnitus if it was caused by exposure to loud noise. Although a person might habituate to their tinnitus, if the hyperacusis isn't treated it will always be a problem and cause spikes in tinnitus also known as Reactive tinnitus.

Michael

 

[maltese]

@Candy I don't know Looking at those numbers, and taking into account that we're more sensitive than "average Joe" I think that for anything <80dB (not for crazy long time) we should be fine... maybe?

@Michael Leigh I'm just panicking. I'm looking for some way of determining "safe" levels, so I can stop guessing... That way it would be easier to live "normally".

That road is very busy, buses and everything... I have no negative symptoms walking without any noise-protection but well... I didn't want to risk it, I guess.

I met with my friends to celebrate independence day - no music, just TV on low volume and a lot of people talking and it can get relatively loud - 70-85dB! I honestly don't know if that's safe anymore... I just left the "party" after an hour, too scared to stay.

Eating at campus restaurant? Few hundred students talking and we have 70-85dB of constant noise, for an hour. Shouldn't be a problem.. right? I wasn't sure so I wear earplugs there......

Can you tell me about your 2008 noise exposure? Was it some loud event? Being in a wrong place, wrong time? I just want to exposing myself to something damaging.


Micheal, I would really like to thank you for your input. You're a very active person here and I just want to let you know that I really appreciate it.

 

[Michael Leigh]

Micheal, I would really like to thank you for your input. You're a very active person here and I just want to let you know that I really appreciate it.

Thank you for your kind comments Maestomusica. Your hyperacusis can be treated and I strongly advise you to see a hearing therapist. I don't want to frighten you, but, if you are not careful your condition could develop into Phonophobia (a fear of sound) so please seek treatment. Start by using sound enrichment at night.
Please read my article, where more is explained about this and treating hyperacusis and tinnitus: An Introduction to tinnitus, click on the link below

I wish you well
Michael
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/an-introduction-to-tinnitus.12100/

 

[Hopeful1]

With all due respect @Hopeful1, your comments are wrong regarding any relief of hyperacusis being temporary.

I went to india earlier this year for 3 weeks...so much background...my hyperacusis almost gone ...... returned to UK my hyperacusis is back in a week???

 

[Michael Leigh]

I went to india earlier this year for 3 weeks...so much background...my hyperacusis almost gone ...... returned to UK my hyperacusis is back in a week???

@Hopeful1 You are not following what I am saying. Hyperacusis needs treatment which can take up to 2 years! A person has to wear "white noise generators" do you know what these are? White noise generators have to be worn for up to 10hours per day. At night a person must use a sound machine by the bedside for sound enrichment. They should also be having tinnitus counselling. This treatment is called TRT. It can last up to 2 years.

Going to India for 3 weeks and your hyperacusis went away. Then, returning to the UK and the hyperacusis came back is not treatment.
All the best
Michael

 

[Hopeful1]

Hyperacusis needs treatment which can take up to 2 years!

If hyperacusis can be cured in 2 years with treatment ...... why we have millions with still H and plenty in this forum itself. Can you point me any reliable source that Hyperacusis can cured ..any clinical trials or papers on this?

I am currently on TRT .... but was not told it will cure my H.

Most people with T also have H but it is so mild that that dont evrn know it.

Having continuous white noise generators in ears may cause damage to synapses over long term....we dont know that yet.....

 

[Sebastians]

Who is paying for all this TRT propaganda, George Soros?

 

[Michael Leigh]

I am currently on TRT .... but was not told it will cure my H.

@Hopeful1 I am living proof that white noise generators can cure hyperacusis. If you are having TRT. This means wearing white noise generators correctly. Setting the white noise just below the tinnitus. Wearing them for 10hrs a day. At night use a sound machine by your bedside. Also having regular tinnitus counselling with your hearing therapist? If you are having all these things then your hyperacusis should be cured withing 2 years.
Michael

PS: many people on this forum do not live in the UK where TRT treatment is free at NHS hospitals that provide it. TRT is an expensive treatment. It is for this reason many people habituate to their tinnitus but if the hyperacuis isn't treated the tinnitus will always be a problem. This manifests itself as Spikes and reactive tinnitus, which is hyperacusis reacting to sound. Hypersensitivity. White noise generators desensitizes the auditory system by supplying it with white noise at a low level over a long time.....

 

[Hopeful1]

Michael please read my post in this forum.....i have read hundred of hours on T and H.....the way you write to me suggests i know nothing about T and H.

Only treatment i know for H is ...http://hyperacusisfocus.org/research/surgery/

 

[Hopeful1]

I am living proof that white noise generators can cure hyperacusis.

That may be a placebo effect....i want a double blind study to believe it.

 

[Konstadinos]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to live normally, I'm trying not to let this imaginary noise control my life.

I won't go to clubs or concerts anymore. That's fine, I won't miss it. But what about other situations?

(all dB values measured using an Android app, so probably somewhat inaccurate)

Like walking near a road 60-75dB (I wear my Bose Headphones, no music of course, just using them as some basic proctection)

Home-parties or lecture halls with all those students talking before lecture ~70-80db

Same thing with restaurants and pubs. Is there any rule of a thumb, what sound level (in dB) should be ok for a person with T? For how long?



Guys, I'm relatively young. I turned 20 yesterday.... I can imagine living a happy life with my current tinnitus level, but I'm so scared of it getting worse....

There is no reason to attend a place where you have to wear earplugs to protect your hearing especially if you already have tinnitus that was caused in a club. Such places are considered to be for entertaiment, a place where you go to forget your problems, to escape, or just have fun. Not to damage your hearing and sure not to give you a noise in your head you have to deal with...who know how long. I've recently read that in a disco the noise level is so high that the safe time to be there without causing permanent hearing damage is fifteen minutes. That means that even it will not give you tinnitus, any longer will cause you a permanent hearing loss. There are dozens of other places to listen to music, in a lower and much more enjoyable level. (decibel meter is a fine idea)

 

[VRZ78]

From what you describe you don't really seems to have hyperacousis but more like a fear of sounds. Does your tinnitus spikes after you've been to a place with 70 or 80 dB or does your ears hurt ?
If not then it would probably be safe for you to go to those places. Know that you have a muscle in your ear that can block sounds like an earplugs when it's too loud. The problem is that it fatigues after a while and stops blocking sounds that's why you end up with damage if you go to a club for too long (it works only for several minutes in a nightclub)

 

[Michael Leigh]

That may be a placebo effect....i want a double blind study to believe it.

A waste of time and wont be corresponding further. I will finish by saying: I very much doubt that you are having proper TRT treatment following the Jasterboff protocol. Some people think they are having TRT when they are not.
Michael

 

[maltese]

There is no reason to attend a place where you have to wear earplugs to protect your hearing especially if you already have tinnitus that was caused in a club. Such places are considered to be for entertaiment, a place where you go to forget your problems, to escape, or just have fun. Not to damage your hearing and sure not to give you a noise in your head you have to deal with...who know how long. I've recently read that in a disco the noise level is so high that the safe time to be there without causing permanent hearing damage is fifteen minutes. That means that even it will not give you tinnitus, any longer will cause you a permanent hearing loss. There are dozens of other places to listen to music, in a lower and much more enjoyable level. (decibel meter is a fine idea)

I agree completely. The whole point of creating this thread was to ask a question: how can I determine that I'm in a "safe" place? Or in other words: is there any way to determine how loud is too loud for a person that has T?

The only anwser that was mentioned in this thread was 75dB. That would mean I have to wear ear plugs in previously mentioned situations..

 

[Sebastians]

I agree completely. The whole point of creating this thread was to ask a question: how can I determine that I'm in a "safe" place? Or in other words: is there any way to determine how loud is too loud for a person that has T?

The only anwser that was mentioned in this thread was 75dB. That would mean I have to wear ear plugs in previously mentioned situations..

Rule of thumb is that if you need to raise your voice to be heard from about a meter/2-3 feet, you may want to limit your exposure to those noise levels or plug up. This coincides with noise levels around 70-75 db approximately. But just go with whatever feels comfortable. F. Ex. I went on a date to the movies on saturday. It was some French drama (her choice of course;-) with lots of dialogue and still, the volume was cranked all the way up so i put in my filtered earplugs. As we walk out she says 'it was so loud inside the theater, i felt very uncomfortable' and she doesn't have T/H. This overstimulation we are exposed to is NOT normal.

 

[Michael Leigh]

@maltese
If I may say so Maestromusica. If a person has hyperacusis with tinnitus and the hyperacusis is severe (as mine used to be) there is really no safe sound levels until the H is properly treated and cured which is possible. Sensitivity to sound will be different for everyone. Whilst it's good to protect yourself by wearing noise reducing earplugs in noisy envirnoments, please consider what I have previously said. Using noise reducing earplugs on a regular basis will often make the auditory system more sensitive to sound.
Michael

 

[VRZ78]

@maltese How loud is your T ? Do you only hear it in quiet rooms or all the time ?

If it's mild I think you will do well if you're under 85 dB which is the point where permanent damage can occur (it also depends on the amount on time you stay in a place with those levels). 20% of the population have T and you don't see 20% of the population wearing earplugs in the street.

Of course it your tinnitus is loud, reactive and if average sounds or sounds at 70 dB cause you pain or discomfort (but not fear) then yes wear earplugs in those situations.

 

[Jason C]

@maltese How loud is your T ? Do you only hear it in quiet rooms or all the time ?

If it's mild I think you will do well if you're under 85 dB which is the point where permanent damage can occur (it also depends on the amount on time you stay in a place with those levels). 20% of the population have T and you don't see 20% of the population wearing earplugs in the street.

Of course it your tinnitus is loud, reactive and if average sounds or sounds at 70 dB cause you pain or discomfort (but not fear) then yes wear earplugs in those situations.

The thing about my T is that in a quiet room I can struggle too hear it at all yet standing in a windy car park outside I can hear it fizzing away. I try too keep away from noise over 85db or so, noise doesn't hurt my ears but it would make my ears ring louder for a period after but then it calms down again.

 

[Ed209]

@maltese

Unfortunately there are no clear answers to your question and this has been debated on here numerous times. We literally go around in circles talking about what's safe.

If you want objective, clinical data, then you will be hard pressed to find anything of substance. You will mainly find anecdotal information based on life experiences; which is unreliable. Data is notoriously hard to analyse because of the webs/connections that are created. For example, you could correlate yellowing teeth as being a precursor to lung cancer. This however is not true and only tells a story on one of the most well known ways of acquiring lung cancer: smoking. As you can see - if smoking is not part of the equation - then you could easily draw conclusions that are incorrect. This occurs regularly in science which is why things have to be thoroughly studied.

The problem with anecdotal stories is similar. A lot of the time people don't actually receive a diagnosis (remember, tinnitus is a symptom). In many cases diagnoses' are based on the most likely cause; which is usually noise induced. Now imagine that a person has tinnitus due to an undiagnosed vascular problem, or maybe intracranial pressure. There are many others we could go with here. Now let's say this person believes they have noise induced tinnitus, and over the course of a few months attend a few shows which get a bit loud. However, they use earplugs and feel fine; the noise is reduced significantly. Then imagine the next day or later, their tinnitus spikes, and they go through a rough patch. The obvious and most immediate thoughts would be directed towards the shows they attended, because that's the most likely cause. But, in this instance we could say this person is wrong, and it is in fact a worsening of their vascular condition which is causing the spike. You can change my example of using a vascular problem for a multitude of other causes (prolonged stress, undiagnosed TMJ, allergies, high blood pressure, neck muscle problems, prescription meds, otosclerosis, eustachian tube problems, impacted earwax, etc etc).

Stories like these are often presented as facts, but in reality they are only anecdotal. You could represent this in many other ways. For example, someone may believe the prescription drugs they have been taking caused their tinnitus, since it only started whilst using them. A classic case of connecting the wrong dots (a common fault all humans possess known as a human bias). In this case they have noise induced tinnitus, but it has been cumulative. The noise that was the final straw which caused the T didn't register with the person at all. In fact, they may not even remember the noise or event that caused it, but the years of clubs and gigs is the contributing factor here; not the drugs they are taking. It's the coincidental factor that makes this so compelling, but ultimately completely untrue.

This is why stories online can only be taken with a pinch of salt. You must do your own research and follow what you believe. Talk to some experts and take their advice.

My own opinion is that you shouldn't wear earplugs when the noise is negligible. It's just not possible anyway unless you want to live in a padded cell. You will come across babies crying, dogs barking, trains and cars going by etc all the time. I'm my opinion - with the advice of the various experts I've talked to - non of this needs protection. Over protection can just lead to other problems including hyperacusis. Save your ear plugs for the theatres, concerts, parties, loud bars, power tools etc.

I also strongly believe that the 'worry' of your ears getting damaged, in everyday situations, is the real problem and not the noise. You can end up with phonophobia as @Michael Leigh pointed out, or other psychological conditions which will only make your tinnitus and mental health worse. It's a form of obsession similar to OCD when it's taken too far, and it's unhealthy for your mind and central nervous system. You will end up becoming a very jumpy person.

Live your life as normally as possible, and try your best not to worry too much.

 

[Michael Leigh]

I also strongly believe that the 'worry' of your ears getting damaged, in everyday situations, is the real problem and not the noise.

Live your life as normally as possible, and try your best not to worry too much.

Well-said @Ed209 It is so easy for some people to become paranoid about sensitivity to sound (hyperacusis). They think wearing earplugs or noise-reducing earplugs daily is the right thing to do, when actually it is the worst thing a person can do, as they are likely to make their auditory system more sensitive. However, it is their choice.

I would like to end by telling a short story that is absolutely true. It might dissuade some of the hard believers out there that the overuse of earplugs to suppress normal everyday sounds is not a good idea.

A friend of mine has had tinnitus and hyperacusis for quite some time. She also has slight hearing loss. Her Hearing Therapist has repeatedly advised her to wear a hearing aid or use white noise generators to help desensitise the auditory system, which will reduce and eventually cure the hyperacusis. Instead, she won't wear either of these devices. I have given up on telling her that this is the wrong thing to do.

At every opportunity she keeps away from normal everyday sounds and is now a virtual recluse at home. The hyperacusis (or fear of sound) has got so bad, she even complains about the sound of rain falling on top of her conservatory roof, which is made of glass. The sound of the fridge, microwave, washing machine and dishwasher sends her into panic mode. Just last week, while talking to her on the phone, she complained about the sound of my electric kettle boiling up in the background.

Michael.

 

[VRZ78]

@Michael Leigh

The thing is that there seems to be different form of hyperacousis. I believe if you have pain for loud sounds or if sounds in general are too loud white noise generator works well.

But it my case for example it is only some frequencies that are really loud. For exemple a can hear a really high pitch noise in subway stations from a great distance where my friends don't hear anything. If I get closer the sounds goes really loud and into my head. The more I listen to it the louder it gets. If I listen to white noise I will hear a lot of frequencies that stand out of the white noise and it will increase my tinnitus to the roof. I had holidays and stayed one total week in the silence and after that it was better as the sounds of those frequencies were lower. My ontologist told me I should were special filters all days that only attenuate the damaged frequency. He also seems to to TRT so I guess he knows in which situations it is usefull... Again maybe he's wrong...

 

[Michael Leigh]

@VRZ78
I appreciate what you are saying and I agree with you that there does seem to be different types of hyperacusis. Tinnitus and hyperacusis are complex and no two people will experience them the same. One thing is for sure. If someone developes tinnitus and hyperaucusis (due to loud noise ) and the hyperacusis isn't cured, either naturally (without treatment) or in more severe cases with treatment- using sound enrichment alone. Or using white noise generators as part of TRT and using a sound machine at night. Then, the tinnitus will always be a problem. It will manifest itself as: tinnitus spiking or Reacting to certain sounds which a lot of people complain of.

One thing I would like to mention about ENT doctors and other healthcare professionals that work in ENT. I have a lot of respect for their knowledge and skill in knowing about the anatomy of the ear. They are able to treat it either medically or surgically. However, the majority of them have never experienced loud intrusive tinnitus, to the degree that members have at tinnitus talk. Therefore, these health professionals no nothing about tinnitus.

It is for this reason, many Hearing Therapists and Audiologists that practice treatments such as: TRT (tinnitus retraining therapy) CBT (cognative behavoural therapy) and give counselling on tinnitus, were either born with tinnitus or acquired it at some time in their life.

Michael

 

[Hopeful1]

A waste of time and wont be corresponding further.

Showing evidence that TRT cures H is no waste of time...it will be useful...you gave no evidence that TRT and white noise cures H.

H is a result of increase in central gain when brain does not get any sufficient/usual input due to loss of synapses .... increase in background noise can help in reducing the central gain there by improving the H....but it cannot bring back the rich input brains had when we had plenty of synapses....without repairing the damage to synapses we cannot cure H even after listening to white noise for a life time.....if you evidence to contrary please present it.

No one know the safe db level....

anyhow the told us to have a look at this site:

http://www.plugem.co.uk/how-loud-is-loud/

The above levels are to protect against hearing loss(haircell damage)....i guess for Tinnitus(synapses loss) it is much lower. I guess we will have partially damage synapsis....so it may not take as much and as long to cause further damage.

If someone wants to enjoy music, they can arrange a music event themselves wherethey can control the music level themselves. i am willing to bet it will cost them a lot less in the long run this way.

 

[Candy]

Good point, where can we get definite info on safety levels?

 

[VRZ78]

It is true that TRT doesn't repair the damages, I guess it just helps the brain to adapt to the new input it recieves.

Here are a list of studies about TRT for H : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperacousie#Th.C3.A9rapies_sonores

Sorry it's in french but translate it or look at the references (4th column)

 

[Ed209]

No one know the safe db level.

Good point, where can we get definite info on safety levels?

There's no evidence I know of that states people with tinnitus can't tolerate noise in the same range as people without.

There has to be a certain level of rationality here. It would be extremely hard if not implausible to live a life where you never come into contact with sounds that go above 75db. I think it gets a bit absurd when people advise this kind of stuff on here like it's no big deal. The effect this can have on people's mental health can be far worse than the actual tinnitus itself for some. The only thing I see is the detrimental impact this way of thinking can have on people's lives. The fear of going near roads, trains, babies, dogs, malls, restaurants etc because you don't want to make your tinnitus worse is bad for your overall psychological health.

Just use some judgement; you'll know when it's time to put your earplugs in. It doesn't have to be an obsession where you are reaching for them every five minutes.