Should I Take a Break from Making Music Because of Tinnitus?

[Dntmastrinhdphns]

Hi all. Firstly I'm very appreciative of Tinnitus Talk and the many contributions by all of you. Reading several of these posts has brought me knowledge and some comfort so thank you.

I just recently started hearing ringing in my ears (at first I thought just my left, but I think my right now too) and it's been about 10 days since I noticed the ringing occurring all day. I think small ringings would come in and out infrequently when standing up or something like that in weeks/months leading up to this point. It's more noticeable at some times than others, like in my room at night, vs. outside in the day.

I suspect I already know the cause of the ringing. Check my username for details. Essentially I have been producing, mixing and mastering my own music in my Sony MDR7506's. They're unfortunately very good headphones. I suspect that since I mixed and mastered my last few tracks in my headphones, at times quite loud to check intensity/clarity of music, and often listening to loud sections many times in a row, that the ringing I've been hearing for the past 10 days is a result of this.

3 questions:

1) Does the ringing indicate the death of hair cells that can no longer transmit sounds so the brain is creating phantom noise?

2) Does this mean it is likely permanent damage i.e. if you're hearing the ringing all day for 10 days that means it's too late, or is it possible for the the ringing to recede over the next few weeks/months? Or the opposite-- Is it possible this can be the beginning signaling my hearing is about to get worse over the next few weeks/months??

3) Should I take a break from producing (and listening to) music altogether until I hit a 3 month point or something like that, if playing the keyboard seems to increase the tinnitus volume?

Thank you all for reading. <3
Mike

 

[Agrajag364]

Absolutely without question the ringing can recede in many people.

If I were you I would protect your ears and avoid music as long as you can manage it to give them the best chance of recovery.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Yes, many people experience fading. Not too many of those people get to hear silence again, but most are able to get to the "can hear it only in quiet rooms" stage. Ears take forever to heal, so the healing process can take months or even years.

You will want to be easy on your ears during that process of healing. It isn't a good idea to go to concerts. Some of us feel like staying away even from the moderate noises (e.g. the vacuum cleaner, blender) has helped to promote healing and has accelerated fading. Note that some people claim to go to concerts/movie theaters while wearing earplugs and ended up being ok. But it's a risk:

It can get extremely bad. I went to clubs and concerts for four years after initial onset of mild tinnitus and hyperacusis, and I was fine. I got some increased tinnitus before going to bed, but that was all.

Until one day, it wasn't.

Check out

I didn't read all the above comments, but did peruse a fair amount of it, and ran across many good points on both sides of the argument. What strikes me is there seems to be an underlying assumption (of course I may be wrong on this) that all brains and neurological systems are created equal. The way I see it, that's simply not the case, so everybody's way of dealing with tinnitus and/or hyperacusis is going to have to be highly individualized.

I read a book many years ago called "Adrenal Syndrome". A lot of the book touched on the residual resiliency of people's adrenal glands as they respond to life's stresses. Very low resiliency often resulted in months/years of chronic debilitating exhaustion following a stressful event(s) in their lives. Very high resiliency indicated essentially the opposite. The author broke this down into some rough numbers:

25% of people have low resiliency, meaning normal life stressors will often send them into some degree of a tailspin.
25% of people have high resiliency, meaning that no matter how severe a stressor comes into their lives, they will be able to cope without becoming debilitated to any degree.
50% of people fall somewhere inbetween.

I believe there are some kind of corresponding numbers for a person's brain and neurological resiliency as well, which can greatly affect the ability to cope with tinnitus. (I believe adrenal resiliency also plays a major role in our ability to cope). -- Based on these assumptions, it's pretty easy for me to conclude that what may be overprotection for one person will be underprotection for another, and vice versa.

I think the main point to understand for someone new to tinnitus is that their path forward is going to be a lot of "testing the waters". Generally, IMHO, it's going to take a few weeks or months to get important insights that will help us achieve a healthy balance. In all likelihood, most people are going to learn from experience when their over-protecting or under-protecting.

I've come to believe however, that in those early months, if one is going to err in either direction, it should be toward overprotection. It just seems to me the consequences of underprotection (which could result in permanent injury) in those early times are much more dire than the consequences of overprotection--which as I understand, generally results in temporary setbacks.

Doing a number of things to better support the brain and neurological system and the body's stress response (adrenal glands) is quite high on my list of recommendations I would make to anybody with tinnitus. Doing so might even prevent phonophobia or OCD, etc., as we go through our learning curves -- Just my 2 cents worth.

Relative newbies to tinnitus are likely to find all the information/opinions above quite confusing. So here are a few common-sense rules to follow:

1. The best protection of all is avoidance. Even the best earplugs can't guarantee complete hearing protection so those relatively new to tinnitus are best advised to avoid prolonged loud noise exposure - especially amplified sound at for example live concerts and sports events. This may involve lifestyle changes.

2. When in doubt, use hearing protection. In the many tasks we all do through the week, some will inevitably involve exposure to noise - which may be at higher levels than we at first realise - so using hearing protection for many of these is only sensible.

3. Build quiet into your day. It's not a good idea to be wearing hearing protection all the time - so you need to give your ears a break by ensuring that there will be quieter times during your day when hearing protection isn't necessary.This may involve changing your routine. Use soft masking noise and light music (not using headphones) to avoid "silence" where tinnitus is most noticeable.

4. Don't stress about stress. Tinnitus newbies are forever being told that the thing which makes tinnitus worse is stress. But while it's true that how you are feeling at a particular moment can make tinnitus temporarily louder, it won't have a lasting effect. But prolonged loud noise exposure can make tinnitus permanently louder. So don't stress about stress - but do be concerned about noise.

You will want to make sure that you don't hurt your ears during this period of vulnerability as your body is healing. You will want to ensure that you avoid taking ototoxic drugs, that you don't have microsuction done (if you need to clean wax out of your ears; a manual tool should be used), and that you don't have your dental hygienist doesn't use an ultrasonic scaling tool on you (a manual tool should be used). For more details, see

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...eone-else-who-has-tinnitus.26850/#post-307822

If you are still not sure about what to do, check out

Oh go you'll be fine they said. Wear earplugs they said.

So I went to the event with ear plugs. Was there for only a few minutes. Big mistake. Gave me low drone/hum that's worst than the high pitch hiss/eeeee, tea kettle sounds. Never went away. sigh
3 1/2 years ago.

Everyone is different. Every situation is different.
You have to make a decision and live with it.

I wish I could understand how I have a spike after using a 70 decibel lawn mower with ear muffs on for like 20 minutes. It has been 10 days now. Ever since I've did that damn MRI two years ago, not only did I get x3 tinnitus increase, the noise threshold required to get worse is much lower. I used to use gas powered lawn mowers before the MRI with no problems, with hearing protection on of course.

Just more proof to the concept that the more damage you have the more it easy it can get worse at least for me.

My tinnitus was severe initially, but it went away completely but then it returned, slowly at first, as I continued to enjoy a few concerts and clubs (with earplugs and in moderation). I only continued to do these activities after an ENT told me that I should continue to do all the things I usually did, just wear protection - I first and foremost blame her for the situation I am now in (horrendously loud tinnitus and hyperacusis) from bad advice. I should have trusted my gut instinct and never went to another rock concert again, but no I trusted her advice... perhaps because I wanted to.

I gave up concerts in 2016 when I got my first very noticeable increase - the time it went from being a "only at night" sound to a 24/7 sound, though very low in the day, I could tune it out easily. I was quite happy, learning to sleep normally with the new volume, and it didn't bother me too much. I still went to social nights with friends, bars and restaurants that weren't playing loud music were ok for me with earplugs.

Fast forward to April 2018 and I decided to accept an invitation from a friend to play electric guitar with him at his house. Big mistake! We played on small amps and for an hour and a half and that is what left me with catastrophic tinnitus and hyperacusis.... I'd say from this point onwards, the impact on my life has been absolutely life-changing and devastating. I'm to blame for that, I should have known better, but I stupidly thought with ear protection I'd be ok because I am usually ok playing my amp even without earplugs. I should have worn ear defenders not just ear plugs. As I hadn't taken in the extra volume from his amp and plus he turned his up a bit louder than mine. I became full of regret and started to hate myself and my decision that changed my life.

My life since has been very difficult. I cannot sleep without meds each night, the ringing is so loud. I cannot drive, shop or walk near busy roads without earplugs. I cannot go to restaurants or bars anymore or do most social activities that my friends do which has left me feeling isolated and depressed. I've tried to vacation as usual... which was partially successful. However on flights I have to wear ear defenders otherwise my tinnitus spikes like crazy. The last time I flew in May this year, part of my trip involved a boat trip....the boat was 87 dB! I wore earplugs but again, 87 dB on a small boat 47 minutes each way? It caused another increase in my tinnitus. The same thing goes for driving my car... if I drive on a highway for more than 30 mins, normal earplugs don't protect me, I have to wear ear defenders to stop tinnitus spiking. I'm not sure what kind of tinnitus I have but it's very reactive to low level noise and it really gets me down as it seems to increase in volume each time. I don't want to live like a hermit but it's becoming that way... and I hate it. The spikes from little mistakes are loud and go on for weeks. Usually when they fade I'm left with louder ringing generally.

Should I take a break from producing (and listening to) music altogether until I hit a 3 month point or something like that, if playing the keyboard seems to increase the tinnitus volume?

If I were you, I would take a break for at least a year or two.

You might want to never wear headphones again. Here is a recent post that you might find to be useful:

I've been avoiding headphones completely, taking a complete audio break, and I felt it starting to subside quite a lot (ringing was only audible in a dead silent room on the ear that was on the pillow level). Yesterday I made a beat just through my airpods on legitimately 10% volume and it feels like I've done a COMPLETE reset on the ringing. I'm so so discouraged and pissed at myself.

 

[Dntmastrinhdphns]

Absolutely without question the ringing can recede in many people.

If I were you I would protect your ears and avoid music as long as you can manage it to give them the best chance of recovery.

Thank you for your answer So are you suggesting not to listen to music or play piano/guitar.produce music on my computer until the noise fades away? Or just not to listen/record with headphones, just a speaker and at low levels?

 

[Dntmastrinhdphns]

If I were you, I would take a break for at least a year or two.
You might want to never wear headphones again.

Thank you so much for your in depth response. I truly appreciate all the insights, reference anecdotes and suggestions. Would you recommend not even listening to music? Or just not in headphones, and only at a low volume? How would this be different from creating music if at a similar volume? I definitely intend not to listen to music for at least 4-8 weeks but it is hard to keep away from playing. Especially since music making is my passion and was intending to be part of my career. I am 26 y.o btw. But also I do not want to damage my ears further and live with the consequences.

So how would you navigate this and how would you periodically check in to see what's "kosher" to do/listen to?
Thanks again

 

[Bill Bauer]

Would you recommend not even listening to music?

I think speakers should be fine. But be very careful with the volume. Start at the lowest volume you can handle, listen to music at this volume for a minute and then wait for 24 hours to see whether you get a spike of your tinnitus. If nothing happens, repeat the process while increasing the time of your exposure, and keep doing this - increasing the time of the exposure very gradually.

If the music feels too loud, listen to the signal from your body and stop right away. Eventually that volume will stop feeling wrong and at that time you might want to go through the process above.

How would this be different from creating music if at a similar volume?

I don't have a medical or sound engineering background. I have been reading this forum for 37 months and I recognize some patterns. Of course all of it is anecdotal evidence. However, it doesn't look like actual scientific studies into this will be taking place any time soon.

 

[Bill Bauer]

how would you navigate this and how would you periodically check in to see what's "kosher" to do/listen to?

I would be easy on my ears for two years, and then I would do the "gradual" method I described above.

it is hard to keep away from playing

Don't "do the crime" if you aren't prepared to "do the time" (a lifetime of debilitating tinnitus that makes one's body uninhabitable).

 

[HeavyMantra]

My story is similar to yours. Here's my thoughts for what it's worth, I haven't found a sustainable way back to music yet. And along with almost everyone on this site, I'm making guessed based on anecdotal evidence and personal experiences. This is largely uncharted territory, read what anyone here says with skepticism. And more importantly, know that medical professionals are clueless about these things and give out dangerous advice.

If you have hyperacusis, focus on curing it first. It will save you time later. It can allegedly be done and I think music can be detrimental to this process. Also, "listening to music" has a very different meaning for people who create it: when people say "just listen to music on low volume through speakers" they might be talking about some solo piano stuff, simple vocal driven stuff and so on that can be enjoyed at 50-60 db. Actually working on a song is another story. I personally have a hard time working on songs that have many, many layers that I want to hear at the same time. Naturally, I've become more interested in sparse and mellow arrangements.

I got mild hyperacusis/misophonia 6 months after my trauma, and I think I got it because I read too much stuff on this site and started fearing music and sounds in general. The less I listened to music, the harder it was to tolerate it. The fear of tinnitus getting worse is important but it can also swing the other way and become detrimental to the condition.

Music contains different frequency material than most natural sounds. In my experience, music can be much harder to tolerate than natural sounds because of how speakers function. Especially speakers with metal drivers, they often have ultrasonic frequencies that aren't heard but can cause problems. Once you get going, try some different plugins to alter your casual or focused listening to your liking. For instance, my speakers go up to 30 kHz and I often cut everything above 12 kHz out and slap on some mastering plugins that reduce high-frequency material in a musical way. Small speakers with a soft dome is your best bet for fatigue-free listening in my opinion.

Experiment and see what works for you. I think the goal is to listen to music without causing any spikes. If you get a spike from music on low levels, it's probably because of hyperacusis. This may or may not make your condition worse with continued noise exposure. But as a musician, you arguably have more to lose to this condition than people who aren't. Play the long game. Do you want to be able to listen to music in 2 years? Base your decisions on the answer to that question.

My tinnitus was initially mild and later went away. It came back 10x worse and seemingly permanent from ONE mistake, which was singing with IEMs for too long. Not loud, just too long + occlusion effect from the IEMs.

Don't pay too much attention to "standard safe dB levels". They are MAYBE valid for people without tinnitus/hyperacusis, but I'm of the opinion that once you have tinnitus your ears tolerate much less sound that healthy ears. Working at 70 dB is not a guarantee that your ears are safe. You have to make a decisions based on how your own ears react to sound.

Ask any professional audio engineer and they will tell you that headphones are only used for quick checking since they are much more damaging than speakers. Many people on this site deny that for some reason I can't fathom, but I personally listen more to professionals that use their ears for work 18+ hours every day and depend on their ears for their sustenance.

Good luck and I feel you.. This is one of the worst things that can happen to musicians, but there's hope. Many, many many musicians have tinnitus. But some make too many mistakes/have too many accidents and are out. I think the most important thing is to not make any more mistakes, since the effects of mistakes on tinnitus are often permanent or persisent. Be vigilant if your tinnitus improves: this does not mean it's a good idea to start using headphones or going to shows again, because the tinnitus can come back with a vengeance.

Ask yourself: what can I do to become a better musician without exposure to loud sounds? What skills would come in handy 2 years from now that you can work on while your ears heal? 2 years is just and example, it can take more or less time before you see improvement

 

[Dntmastrinhdphns]

I got mild hyperacusis/misophonia 6 months after my trauma, and I think I got it because I read too much stuff on this site and started fearing music and sounds in general. The less I listened to music, the harder it was to tolerate it.

Can you explain this a bit more? What trauma caused your initial onset? And how long before it faded away (completely?) the first time before coming back because of the IEMs?

 

[Dntmastrinhdphns]

My tinnitus was initially mild and later went away. It came back 10x worse and seemingly permanent from ONE mistake, which was singing with IEMs for too long. Not loud, just too long + occlusion effect from the IEMs.

Yeah, this makes me feel like live performances and touring may be out the window for me... But at the end of the day all I really want, now that things are put into perspective, is to have 'healthy' hearing, with little impairment on my mental state, and the ability to continue making music. Even if it's 2 years from now, and even if I never perform live. I am praying that this is still possible for me since it is still early in the process and the tinnitus is thankfully not severe at the moment. I am grateful of that.

 

[Dntmastrinhdphns]

If you get a spike from music on low levels, it's probably because of hyperacusis.

I may have hyperacusis too, since playing ping pong was nearly unbearable from the high frequency "pongs" the ball made... or the sound of clanking dishes... are these signs of possible hyperacusis and/or hearing loss?
I appreciate your lengthy response btw. It's at least nice to know I'm not alone.

 

[Dntmastrinhdphns]

However, it doesn't look like actual scientific studies into this will be taking place any time soon.

You don't think they will be developing an effective treatment/cure soon? I was reading about a study published in December 2019 about researchers inducing cell division in the mature inner ear I believe using stem cells. "The researchers found that activating the ERBB2 pathway triggered a cascading series of cellular events by which cochlear support cells began to proliferate and start the process of activating other neighboring stem cells to become new sensory hair cells. Furthermore, it appears that this process not only could impact the regeneration of sensory hair cells, but also support their integration with nerve cells"
Granted, I have no idea how long it will take for them to run proper tests and get FDA approval... and they are also working on the issue of containing stem cell division so as not to divide infinitely and become cancerous... but this new experiment and their results gave me some hope.
Not sure if these are the same study but they may be:

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/reversing-hearing-loss

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181015132953.htm

 

[Juan]

3) Should I take a break from producing (and listening to) music altogether until I hit a 3 month point or something like that, if playing the keyboard seems to increase the tinnitus volume?

Yes, you should give your ears a rest.

 

[OnceUponaTime]

If you are still not sure about what to do, check out

This still remains true today. Sadly.

"Oh go you'll be fine they said. Wear earplugs they said."
So I went to the event with ear plugs. Was there for only a few minutes. Big mistake. Gave me low drone/hum that's worst than the high pitch hiss/eeeee, tea kettle sounds. Never went away. sigh
3 1/2 years ago.

Everyone is different. Every situation is different.
You have to make a decision and live with it.

 

[Bill Bauer]

You don't think they will be developing an effective treatment/cure soon?

There are many treatments in the pipeline:

Hearing Regeneration Trials

Spoiler

Frequency Therapeutics - FX-322
in Phase 1.5 (Results: December 2018)
Phase 2 (begin 2019)
Audion / Regain Trial
Phase 1/2 ongoing in the UK
Genvec / Novartis - CGF166
Phase 1/2 ongoing

Trials to begin in 2019 / Things to look out for in 2019

Spoiler

Neuromod (MuteButton)
launching their new device in January 2019 starting in Ireland, then Europe, then the US
results of their latest trial: 1H2019
Xenon Pharma - XEN-1101
Phase 2, expected to wrap up in 2nd quarter 2020
Frequency Therapeutics
Phase 2
Otonomy
1H19: OTO-313 (reduce tinnitus) Phase 1/2
1H19: OTO-413 (repairing synaptic damage) Phase 1/2
OTO-6XX (hair cell regeneration)
2H18: candidate selection
2019: Phase 1/2
University of Minnesota (device for tinnitus)
Phase 3 ?
University of Michigan (device for tinnitus)
perhaps updates on their currently ongoing trial
Estimated Primary Completion Date: September 2022
Estimated Study Completion Date: January 2023

Yup the days before I was part of the bimodal stimulation trial. T'was no fun. No fun at all.

And by days I mean years. And by years I mean decades.

One user of this forum @kelpiemsp made many posts and is clear that he is for real person. He claims that one of those treatments in the pipeline (bimodal stimulation) has cured his tinnitus. His experiences seem to imply that there is hope that a cure might be available. Having said this, people thought that Lenire will be a cure (and I think it is based on the same idea as bimodal stimulation/I could be wrong on this), but it isn't looking too promising:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/lenire-—-user-experiences-and-reviews.35776/