Sound Therapy International?

[Polar-Bear]

Hi Everyone, I was just wondering if anyone has tried sound therapy from http://www.soundtherapyperth.com/ or they are also located at http://www.soundtherapyinternational.com
They talk about inducing sounds into the ear that give it a work-out and plus retrains the brain on how it hears sounds. In the testimonials people have claimed that they get drastic decreases in there T, or even that it has disappeared. From what I can tell they have been around for awhile. If anyone here has experience with this device please let me know. The price for one of these things is roughly just over $600 dollars after shipping to Canada.
Thanks.

 

[Molan]

I read a book earlier this year from 1985 on the Tomatis method by Patricia joudry (who I think is the mother of Rafaele joudry who you see on the video on that site you posted)

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Therapy-Walk-Patricia-Joudry/dp/B000RUVVIS/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353808553&sr=1-7&keywords=patricia joudry

It does sound quite interesting but it's low down on my ''to try'' list for tinnitus. There are other more proven treatments that I personally would prefer to experiment with first. If they fail though I will definetly give the tomatis method a try. Please let us know how you get on if you decide to try it for yourself.

 

[Polar-Bear]

Thanks for your feedback Molan. I know the price is way better than going for something like Neromonics (think thats how its spelled) as that can range to about $5000 for a unit. I was thinking of buying one of her books to get a better understanding. If I do go down that path I will definitely keep everyone here posted as to the results.

 

[Molan]

Absolutely!! The price of Neuromonics is a disgrace. There is no legitimate reason in my view to justify that apart from sheer greed for profit.

I have only read that 1985 book I mentioned. I have not yet read any other books on the Tomatis method so can't recommend any to you unfortunately. I think the creator of it also wrote a few books on it himself but I would imagine what is offered by sound-therapy international today would be an evolved version perhaps.

Good luck!

 

[Listen4Life]

Hi,

I disagree with the previous post.

My experience suggests that the most effective sound therapy interventions for tinnitus involve targeting the specific frequencies involved in the individual's tinnitus. In my practice, I have found that sound therapy programs do not work unless they are so targeted in this manner. I have no connection with Neuromonics, but I have referred clients to them and they were happy with the results. Yes it is expensive, because it is individualised and involves face-face consults.

My personal experience with a high end clinic-based sound therapy systems is that they had no lasting impact on my tinnitus. In fact the programs made my tinnitus louder initially as all my perceptual thresholds were raised. Then as my system accommodated for the tinnitus, the intrusion dropped back to pre-therapy levels.

 

[Andy]

Hi I ve been tying out white noise at night through my iPod but found that's it made my T worse especially in my left ear where it wasn't as bad I anyone any ideas why this is ??

 

[Molan]

Hi,

I disagree with the previous post.

My experience suggests that the most effective sound therapy interventions for tinnitus involve targeting the specific frequencies involved in the individual's tinnitus. In my practice, I have found that sound therapy programs do not work unless they are so targeted in this manner. I have no connection with Neuromonics, but I have referred clients to them and they were happy with the results. Yes it is expensive, because it is individualised and involves face-face consults.

My personal experience with a high end clinic-based sound therapy systems is that they had no lasting impact on my tinnitus. In fact the programs made my tinnitus louder initially as all my perceptual thresholds were raised. Then as my system accommodated for the tinnitus, the intrusion dropped back to pre-therapy levels.

I'm unsure about what you are trying to say. Sound therapy can be a loose term given to a variety of therapies like TRT, Neuromonics or the Tomatis method. However you cannot group them all together as being the same as obviously they all approach things in different ways to one another.

Neuromonics is certainly not unique because it is individualized and involves face to face consults. So can TRT or Tomatis based methods as well but they do not charge such ridiculously high prices for their services.

 

[Molan]

Hi I ve been tying out white noise at night through my iPod but found that's it made my T worse especially in my left ear where it wasn't as bad I anyone any ideas why this is ??

Hello Andy, I believe you might have something called ''reactive'' tinnitus where the noise can spike when exposed to a certain sound for a period of time. I have to apologize though as there are other people on this forum who are far more knowledgeable then I'am about this so hopefully one of them could help you out with this in more detail.

Personally I stopped using white noise a long time ago as I felt it was actually making things worse for me. I have since used natural sounds such as oceon waves, waterfalls, brooks/rivers flowing and thunder/lighting+ rain. They do not seem to irritate my ears anywhere near as much.

 

[Karl]

...
My experience suggests that the most effective sound therapy interventions for tinnitus involve targeting the specific frequencies involved in the individual's tinnitus. In my practice, I have found that sound therapy programs do not work unless they are so targeted in this manner. ...

Very interesting. Several months ago I made an MP3 file of a frequency that matches my tinnitus. I listened to that for 1-2 hours a day for several weeks. It seemed that it changed the sound of my tinnitus to more of a noise. Your quote is the first I've read that seems to substantiate that approach.

Last month, I met a doctor who will soon be releasing a sound therapy which he's developed since the 1990's. His patented system delivers a barely audible tinnitus specific frequency as the carrier frequency with two sideband frequencies. The concept is, sidebands that are above and below the tinnitus frequency have been shown to inhibit the area of the brain that is overexcited by the tinnitus frequency.

I use maskers for long stretches, until I get sick and tired of them (like now). Maskers make a white noise. Sometimes I think they do a great job of hiding my tinnitus. Other times, I actually think they may be actually making my tinnitus worse. Overall, maskers have helped me cope better, I suppose.

 

[carlover]

Hello polar bear ,i really liked the theory of this so had a go ,i really went for it for exactly one year i listened every day without fail for between 3 and 7 hours a day ,as i progressed i purchased level 2 and 3 as well as the level 1 which I started with.

Results? .... a complete and utter failure ,it did not change my Tinnitus in any way whatsoever.Bearing in mind I believed in the programme i was so disappointed ,not cheap either.

 

[Polar-Bear]

Thank you carlover, thats the kind of feedback I was looking for on that product.

Hi Karl, when you stated

It seemed that it changed the sound of my tinnitus to more of a noise.

was that a good change in your favour?

 

[Karl]

...

Hi Karl, when you stated was that a good change in your favour?

Yes, it changed from a pure tone to more like white noise. There is still a tone there, but not like when I got tinnitus 11 months ago....At least I think it's changed. I stopped doing this self experiment several months ago.

Interestingly, several months after doing this, I attended an ATA support group. I told some people about how I had listened to my tinnitus frequency as a form of therapy. One woman told me that she had heard of people doing this - in fact they may have had a speaker talk about this approach. There is no such thing as an original idea, it seems.

I created my pure tone using the NCH Tone Generator, which I downloaded. Then I made an MP3 file, using a digital recorder that I have.

I was very surprised to find that I have hearing loss at the tinnitus frequency. The more that I've delved into this topic, I now understand that hearing loss at a particular frequency is actually the initiator of tinnitus.

Our auditory systems are meant to function with two healthy ears which compare sound intensities to locate sounds. When the ability to hear a frequency becomes damaged, the auditory system sends a signal back along an efferent nerve to the ear to "crank things up". However, the ear can't crank up the signal because it's damaged. What we are hearing is due to the current from the efferent nerve - basically feedback.

All nerves carry information using synaptic currents, which are interpreted as information, whether it's smelling or visual or hearing. Our nerves aren't vibrating at the sound that we hear; they are connected to hair bundles that vibrate at the sound that we hear. Nerves carry one way, synaptic currents, which are "on" or "off". So, a current from an efferent nerve is interpreted as a sound, because it's connecting back to the hair bundle associated with a particular frequency.

 

[Polar-Bear]

Yes, it changed from a pure tone to more like white noise. There is still a tone there, but not like when I got tinnitus 11 months ago....At least I think it's changed. I stopped doing this self experiment several months ago.

Interestingly, several months after doing this, I attended an ATA support group. I told some people about how I had listened to my tinnitus frequency as a form of therapy. One woman told me that she had heard of people doing this - in fact they may have had a speaker talk about this approach. There is no such thing as an original idea, it seems.

I created my pure tone using the NCH Tone Generator, which I downloaded. Then I made an MP3 file, using a digital recorder that I have.

I was very surprised to find that I have hearing loss at the tinnitus frequency. The more that I've delved into this topic, I now understand that hearing loss at a particular frequency is actually the initiator of tinnitus.

Our auditory systems are meant to function with two healthy ears which compare sound intensities to locate sounds. When the ability to hear a frequency becomes damaged, the auditory system sends a signal back along an efferent nerve to the ear to "crank things up". However, the ear can't crank up the signal because it's damaged. What we are hearing is due to the current from the efferent nerve - basically feedback.

All nerves carry information using synaptic currents, which are interpreted as information, whether it's smelling or visual or hearing. Our nerves aren't vibrating at the sound that we hear; they are connected to hair bundles that vibrate at the sound that we hear. Nerves carry one way, synaptic currents, which are "on" or "off". So, a current from an efferent nerve is interpreted as a sound, because it's connecting back to the hair bundle associated with a particular frequency.

Thank you Karl for the very detailed explanation. That does make sense when you say that it's basically a feedback. Just makes me wonder how some people don't have that feedback and just basically go def. I would much rather prefer that over the T any day. Maybe there nerve isn't sending the signal back asking it to crank it up.

 

[Karl]

Thank you Karl for the very detailed explanation. That does make sense when you say that it's basically a feedback. Just makes me wonder how some people don't have that feedback and just basically go def. I would much rather prefer that over the T any day. Maybe there nerve isn't sending the signal back asking it to crank it up.

Polar-Bear;
It seems there is no clear consensus about "The Cause" of tinnitus. What I say about feedback is my idea. The brain operates using neural connections and synapses, and ultimately it boils down to a giant neural network. I expect that someday a very smart neural scientist will be able to model the problem and will finally determine "The Cause" or "Causes".

I am reading "Tinnitus Retraining Therapy" by Jastreboff and Hazell. It is interesting to read how Jastreboff theorizes why tinnitus starts. My own idea about feedback does not really jive well with Jastreboff's . I'll "stick to my guns" about my feedback idea - at least for now.

Although there is disagreement about what initiates tinnitus, there is a consensus that tinnitus grows due to how we react to tinnitus. We react to tinnitus on both a subconcious and a concious level, creating a vicious cycle in the process. A negative reaction reinforces the vicious cycle.

If I remember back a year ago, my tinnitus started as a little sound that didn't really bug me. I got it after taking a medication called metoprolol, and a daily dose of 365 mg aspirin. Last December, I got a sinus infection, and the sound became noticeably louder. I freaked out. That was how my own vicious cycle began, because I was freaking out, totally losing it - attempting to run away from my own body.

That's how it started in my case. I am going through this piece by piece, getting things back under control. It was a "little sound" before December. I see no reason why I can't get back to that frame of mind.

 

[Polar-Bear]

Polar-Bear;
It seems there is no clear consensus about "The Cause" of tinnitus. What I say about feedback is my idea. The brain operates using neural connections and synapses, and ultimately it boils down to a giant neural network. I expect that someday a very smart neural scientist will be able to model the problem and will finally determine "The Cause" or "Causes".

I am reading "Tinnitus Retraining Therapy" by Jastreboff and Hazell. It is interesting to read how Jastreboff theorizes why tinnitus starts. My own idea about feedback does not really jive well with Jastreboff's . I'll "stick to my guns" about my feedback idea - at least for now.

Although there is disagreement about what initiates tinnitus, there is a consensus that tinnitus grows due to how we react to tinnitus. We react to tinnitus on both a subconcious and a concious level, creating a vicious cycle in the process. A negative reaction reinforces the vicious cycle.

If I remember back a year ago, my tinnitus started as a little sound that didn't really bug me. I got it after taking a medication called metoprolol, and a daily dose of 365 mg aspirin. Last December, I got a sinus infection, and the sound became noticeably louder. I freaked out. That was how my own vicious cycle began, because I was freaking out, totally losing it - attempting to run away from my own body.

That's how it started in my case. I am going through this piece by piece, getting things back under control. It was a "little sound" before December. I see no reason why I can't get back to that frame of mind.

Again, I think your right. I know when this whole thing initially started for me 2 days before the onset of a pretty bad cold I didn't pay it any attention and still had a normal life and ignored the sound when it was present, but my thinking at the time was that it will go away. A week after the cold was gone and I still had the T, well then I went into panic mode and I am aware of it almost all the time. So I associated the sound to a negative emotion. Reading posts and other forums I think it keeps reinforcing that I have T. Right now it sounds impossible that I can ignore it again, but everyone says that it takes time. Bed time is the worst for me.
Do you mask your T when going to bed?

 

[erik]

I also first heard my tinnitus a few times a few weeks before it took up permanent residence in my mind. The first few times, I heard it for a few seconds and promptly ignored it and moved on. Then one day it occurred again but this time I have a negative reaction to it and it decided to hang out and bask in it's negative glory. It is said that tinnitus is not the problem. The problem is the reaction to tinnitus. Millions ignore their tinnitus just as I did in the beginning and it is not problem to them. Why? Because they have no reaction to it which is negative and thus does not create the cycle as Karl explained above. Once we react negatively to tinnitus, the cycle starts and continues until we learn to not care about it again. Of course, training yourself not to care is much harder to do but can be done.

Karl, the Jastreboff book is very good. It was the first tinnitus book I read over and over again in my first few months. I have also read the Henry/James Tinnitus: Self Management book which is more CBT based and the Living with Tinnitus and Hyperacusis by McKenna, two other excellent books.

Yes, I mask my T still when I go to bed. That is the only time of day I do. I just use a white noise machine on low. I am not sure that I still need to use it, it has just become a habit.

 

[Karl]

Again, I think your right. I know when this whole thing initially started for me 2 days before the onset of a pretty bad cold I didn't pay it any attention and still had a normal life and ignored the sound when it was present, but my thinking at the time was that it will go away. A week after the cold was gone and I still had the T, well then I went into panic mode and I am aware of it almost all the time. So I associated the sound to a negative emotion. Reading posts and other forums I think it keeps reinforcing that I have T. Right now it sounds impossible that I can ignore it again, but everyone says that it takes time. Bed time is the worst for me.
Do you mask your T when going to bed?

Polar Bear -
I can tell, you have a handle on this thing. You have essentially encapsulated what Jastreboff says. (I'm only on p. 60, of his book, so....let's say we seem to be "in the right direction".)
You ask about my sleep: When I first got "T", I was totally freaking out, and I couldn't sleep. I took off some days from work and I tried to sleep. I was getting at the end of my rope, because lack of sleep has that effect. So, I called my psychiatrist who I hadn't seen for about 4 years. She prescribed Remeron. I was afraid to take it, because I hated taking Paxil several years ago. So my P-doc says, "Take it!". Like jumping out of an airplane I took that first Remeron, and I slept. In fact, I sleep great. No, I am not a Remeron salesman!

Erik -
Once again, I'm impressed that you also read Jastreboff's book! (Don't spoil the ending. I'm not that far )

The more I read this book, I understand how negativity reinforces tinnitus.

Let me pose a question: Do dogs have tinnitus? Probably, I would think. Does a dog with tinnitus think negatively about his tinnitus? I doubt it. Thinking negatively is more of a human quality. A dog with tinnitus just "gets on with things". It's just a sound to dog, and it can't grow and grow into a vicious cyle. Only humans are able to create these vicious cycles, at least on the cerabral cortext level of thought. A dog probably thinks his tinnitus is just a bee flying around the room!

There are a lot of negative voices out their who can dissuade people from thinking they can make progress. We have doctors saying "There is no cure" and we also have a lot of negative information on the Internet - even on websites like this. You can't escape this negativity, because it's a part of the Bell curve. We need to read at our discretion, keeping in mind that negative comments will undermine our efforts to get better. Try to stay positive. The more a person understands what is causing tinnitus, the less significant a factor will tinnitus be in their life. Otherwise, to be ignorant and freaking out all the time fixes nothing. Knowledge allows habituation.

It's amazing that Jastrebroff doesn't even distinguish tinnitus severity in terms of loudness: It's meanlingless to him. He says that any case of tinnitus can be habituated, no matter what the cause. Almost like reading Nietche, about the power of mind over body.

 

[Molan]

Let me pose a question: Do dogs have tinnitus? Probably, I would think.

Karl I have to say this sentence has left me completely baffled!! How on earth did you you come to that conclusion? What evidence is there to support this statement?

It's amazing that Jastrebroff doesn't even distinguish tinnitus severity in terms of loudness: It's meaningless to him

Just my opinion of course but to me that is not really the best approach. I believe that there is a colossal difference between someone who's Tinnitus can be masked by simple everyday sounds like speech, traffic music etc compared to someone who can stand right next to a giant speaker in a loud club and still hear it very loudly. I think the psychological implications are huge. It is far easier for someone with quieter tinnitus which can be masked to actually forget about it then someone who hears it over everything. The Jasteroff approach to this seems far too reductionist to me.

 

[erik]

Karl, I too was freaking out in the beginning with this T. I tried to find out everything I could about it and when I couldn't find good info online, I turned to reading these books. Jastrebroff's book was the first book on tinnitus I read. I read it and re-read over to make sure I could understand it. I don't think I did totally, because of my frantic and fragile state of mind at the time. I should read it again now that it has been 7 months. I might have a different perspective.

While I do agree that the idea that negative reactions to the intrusiveness of T, creates a vicious cycle, I too have had a problem accepting the meaninglessness of loud T vs quieter T. Mine fluctuates and I will say I do have much better days when it is low level than when it is high. When it is low, it is much easier to forget about it and go about things. When it is loud, I have a harder time because I notice it more and I get irritated. To me loudness does matter, but I am only in this 7 months so maybe my opinion of it will change with time. My father has had loud T for over 30 years (military) and my father-in-law also has loud T (along with 80% hearing loss) and both say that they rarely hear it or are affected by it any longer. My father said it took him about 2-3 years to habituate.

By the way....I asked my Great Dane if he had T but he just laid there and ignored me.....

 

[Karl]

Karl I have to say this sentence has left me completely baffled!! How on earth did you you come to that conclusion? What evidence is there to support this statement?

Molan -
I think all animals are capable of having tinnitus. Here's something I copied from a webpage at http://www.hhmi.org/senses/c130.html

"When sensitive microphones are placed in the ear and a tone is played, a faint echo can be detected resonating back out again. Such otoacoustic emissions are considered normal; in fact, their presence in screening exams of newborn babies is thought to be indicative of healthy hearing. However, in certain cases, otoacoustic emissions can be spontaneous and so intense that they are audible without the aid of special equipment.

"In some people, you can actually hear them. The loudest ones ever recorded were in a dog in Minnesota, whose owner noticed the sound coming out of the animal's ear and took the dog to a specialist, who did recordings and analysis," says Hudspeth.

Researchers studying the auditory system typically use laboratory test animals, since the auditory system is pretty much the same between species. Unless you're a creationist, most animals have evolved with minor variations in the same physiological systems.

Erik -
You and I are still new to this game. Some people have gone through TRT and they say it can typically take about 18 months.

 

[Molan]

Hi Karl thanks for the link,

it's interesting but personally I don't see it as evidence that dogs can have tinnitus. I need something more concrete before I can come to that conclusion but thanks anyway.

 

[Karl]

Molan -
That dog in Minnesota had a sound coming from it's outer hair cells. Newborn babies also have sounds from their outer hair cells. Researchers can induce tinnitus in rats by giving them a lot of aspirin.

But my point is, if a dog were to have tinnitus, I don't think it would make a big deal about it. Making it a big deal is what we humans are good at.

By the way, I have a dog. She doesn't like going to parades, because parades are noisy. We had a Memorial Day parade where veteran soldiers were firing their rifles. I was wearing ear plugs, and I was putting my hands over my dog's ears. I should never have brought her to that parade.

 

[Molan]

Yes Karl I did read that but just because sound comes from something obviously dosen't mean it's Tinnitus. Sound comes from my heart beating but I can't actually hear it unless I use special equipment on myself.

As for the rats that's probably another topic really as I'm quite skeptical of alot of things I have read in the Vagus nerve study.

Much to my annoyance I cannot seem to find a study I saw on TV years ago of cats with bells on their collars being shown to be highly stressfull for them even after many years of use. However when the bell was removed their measured stress levels went down noticeably. Something along the lines of cats who had bells on their collars from when they were kittens and Cats who were given collars with bells from age 3,5 and 8 years or something. I clearly remember that although the cats seemed on the surface not to mind the bell after a period of time the measured stress response told a very different story and went back to their normal relaxed state after the bell had been removed.

So unfortunately Karl we have to agree to disagree on this subject I'm afraid! People are always surprised if I ever tell them I have tinnitus as they say I always look so chilled out and relaxed all the time but I tell them underneath this condition can really stress me out and drive me crazy at times.

Thank you anyway for the link though It was interesting to read.

 

[Louise]

When I was looking for some headphones for the MRI scan I saw 'The Worlds First Headphones For Dogs' on sale. Hunting dogs who are around rifles a lot were pictured.

 

[david c]

Hi, it's definitely not a good idea to listen to white noise through an ipod at night - this can actually worsen tinnitus by delivering too much noise to the ear. Generally listening to ipods for people with tinnitus is not a great idea.

A better idea is to use a free standing sound machine - with the white noise volume set at a low level - ideally at a volume below the tinnitus itself.

 

[erik]

I use a Dohm white noise machine on low at night and have since about my first week with T. Not sure if I actually need it any longer to sleep, it's just become habit and now my wife likes it.

 

[mick]

Hi, it's definitely not a good idea to listen to white noise through an ipod at night - this can actually worsen tinnitus by delivering too much noise to the ear. Generally listening to ipods for people with tinnitus is not a great idea.

A better idea is to use a free standing sound machine - with the white noise volume set at a low level - ideally at a volume below the tinnitus itself.

I actually find listening to my iPod quite helpful at night. I tried listening to masking sounds with it and that just made the T worse. I find listening to an audio book the most comforting. I don't actually actively listen to the words (the one I listen to most is a book I've listened/read more than once already), I just use it as background noise and find it soothing for reasons unknown to me.

I tried a free standing sound machine, and I found it helpful, but my wife couldn't stand it, so I went back to the iPod.

When I visited an audiologist for demostrations of various TRT and masking devices, I tried the Neuromonics device. I found the music on that device quite soothing, so I'm looking for similar music for my iPod. At this point I'm not ready to drop $5k on Neuromonics, but of the 6 devices I demo'd I liked it the best. Second best was something called Zen which played fractal music. For now I'm just going to stick with my iPod audiobooks.

 

[Ellen]

David c, do you have a recommendation for a free standing sound machine? They're not all the same.

Mick, do you use the iPod Touch? Was recommended iPod Touch over the other iPods which requires to be played through earplugs only. Prefer free-standing format where the played sounds fill the room. But then someone says I may as well use iPad or iPhone to play as it'll sound like that played through iPod. Is it the case that all these 3 apple products play the same quality via their speakers?

 

[Markku]

Mick, do you use the iPod Touch? Was recommended iPod Touch over the other iPods which requires to be played through earplugs only. Prefer free-standing format where the played sounds fill the room. But then someone says I may as well use iPad or iPhone to play as it'll sound like that played through iPod. Is it the case that all these 3 apple products play the same quality via their speakers?

Yeah it's best not to use the internal speakers of these devices. iPad mini has stereo speakers and they're ok, but...

Why not buy a bluetooth speaker to complement the iDevice?

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-19512_...s-dead-best-wireless-speakers-for-the-iphone/

Or maybe a bluetooth dongle so you can turn your existing audio system into wireless audio speaker?
Bluetooth dongles: It's a little-known fact to many people that you can turn any stereo, boombox, or even an old pair of PC speakers into a wireless audio system. Just add a Bluetooth adapter. Two of our favorites are available for $30 or less.


There are lots of different models available, you can check the following: http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/ipod_accessories/speakers
Some of those are wireless and some need you to dock your iPhone/iPod Touch to the speaker.

A dedicated setup is much preferred to the internal speakers. If the speaker is wireless, it's super easy to stream music from your iPod/iPhone/iPad to the speaker, and if the speaker requires you to dock your device into it, then it's too very easy. Apple's stuff "just works" - and often so do the 3rd party speakers too

However, if you are on the go away from home and a dedicated speaker isn't available, then the internal speakers of all iPod Touch, iPhone and iPad (+mini) will suffice. They're not bad, but they're not exceptionally good either (considering the size of the devices which really limits the speaker quality).

.2$

 

[Ellen]

Thanks, Markku, for your wealth of speakers info.

I went round stores and they didn't even suggest bluetooth speakers, only the dock-in ones.

As you're more advanced in this experience of speakers, do you have a favourite?