Stem Cell Secretome Treatment

[Tau]

@Tau, the experiment sounds totally experimental. Please report in December. I'm interested in the topic. I'm back at the point where I would try anything. The €19,500 would be well worth it to me, I can simply use an intraday profit with BioNTech shares for it

Will do. Haha, I use my AMD profits.

Edit: animal studies show this should work!

 

[danielthor]

@Tau, how long before they wrote back after you first wrote them? It's been weeks now, getting sorta worried.

 

[Uklawyer]

animal studies show this should work!

I so hope it does - for you and for others!

 

[Tau]

@Tau, how long before they wrote back after you first wrote them? It's been weeks now, getting sorta worried.

Hey - they replied in about one week! You can always give them a call - the staff are really nice.

 

[tenforce]

Good look with the liposuction tomorrow. Let us know how it went!

I'm super interested in the outcome of all of this. I have one-sided hidden hearing loss and hyperacusis since a gunshot next to my ear one year ago. (Self-diagnosed so far, doctors send me home because thresholds are fine, want to do ABR but don't know where yet.) Maybe NT3 is my only chance for getting back the normal hearing I'm used to...

Coincidentally I live in Germany, 40 minutes from Anova. And I also made some profits with AMD, but not yet 20k

 

[Tau]

Liposuction done, it was 120 ml of fat, and they had to take it from the sides above my buttocks because I am skinny af.

I asked how they stimulate the cells - it's hypoxic conditions and some proprietary protocol.

I will come back in 4 weeks for the injections. Hoping it can help my visual snow, too, it's horrible at night.

 

[tenforce]

May I ask which measurement exactly was conducted to determine the ABRs in your case, and which feature of it (which 'wave' I guess) is relevant? And did you yourself interpret the results or an ENT?

I fear that my ENT will think I'm crazy when I tell him about studies on mice and my plan to treat my HHL with NT3...

 

[Tau]

May I ask which measurement exactly was conducted to determine the ABRs in your case, and which feature of it (which 'wave' I guess) is relevant? And did you yourself interpret the results or an ENT?

I fear that my ENT will think I'm crazy when I tell him about studies on mice and my plan to treat my HHL with NT3...

The most prominent were wave I being lower than wave V ('ALR click'), some wave latency and cochlear microphonics present, if I recall correctly. My otologist interpreted them, not me. I think you should go to a hearing disorder specialist and not an ENT.

She was also very eager to know the outcome of my secretome treatment, we keep in touch. I might do a control ABR just before the treatment, and then one a month after.

If you want to try the NT-3, you should mix it with a gel so that it is more viscous and therefore stays near the cochlea longer.

On a side note, I can't believe people get liposuction done for cosmetic reasons. Hopefully I won't have to do it ever again.

 

[tenforce]

@Tau, does intranasal mean, it will just be put into your nose? Or will they actually inject it into the tissue inside the nose somehow? And will you additionally get a regular injection?

Did you ask them about the possibility for a round window delivery, as suggested by the related research on mice?

 

[Tau]

@Tau, does intranasal mean, it will just be put into your nose? Or will they actually inject it into the tissue inside the nose somehow? And will you additionally get a regular injection?

Did you ask them about the possibility for a round window delivery, as suggested by the related research on mice?

I will get IV be default and a spray in my nasal cavity, if I ask for it.

Round window delivery was deemed too dangerous. Even transtympanic delivery to the middle ear was deemed too dangerous, as they really do not want to do any harm.

My first IV is on the 30th of November.

 

[Toby1972]

@Tau, the noise in my ears is currently so massive that I have difficulty concentrating. I cannot currently read and correctly interpret everything here, nor in the linked articles.

@Tau, you mentioned you have cochlear neuropathy and talked about hearing thresholds. There is something in your profile about acoustic trauma.

Can you explain in simple sentences what distinguishes you from "normal hearing loss" after acoustic trauma?

I probably have the classic hearing loss, my hearing curve drops rapidly on the left at 5,600 Hz, to complete deafness, on the right only from 15,000 Hz, but the tinnitus is louder there.

Thanks.

P.S.
Do you actually speak German?

 

[Tau]

@Tau, the noise in my ears is currently so massive that I have difficulty concentrating. I cannot currently read and correctly interpret everything here, nor in the linked articles.

@Tau, you mentioned you have cochlear neuropathy and talked about hearing thresholds. There is something in your profile about acoustic trauma.

Can you explain in simple sentences what distinguishes you from "normal hearing loss" after acoustic trauma?

I probably have the classic hearing loss, my hearing curve drops rapidly on the left at 5,600 Hz, to complete deafness, on the right only from 15,000 Hz, but the tinnitus is louder there.

Thanks.

P.S.
Do you actually speak German?

Unfortunately, my German is limited to my high school classes, so ich kann nicht verstehen

My hearing thresholds are mostly good and my otoacoustic emissions are good, showing that my hair cells are mostly intact. However, I have trouble hearing higher frequency complex music and hearing high frequencies in noise, which is a sign of synaptopathy: one IHC is connected to 10-15 neurons, if you lose some of the connections, you will still hear a pure tone at that frequency, but you will have trouble hearing in noise. I also have abnormal ABR readings showing lowered signal at the cochlea and an amplified signal in the brainstem (which is actually a pretty good predictor of tinnitus, the Hough institute uses this as a proxy for quantifying tinnitus in animals). I am not saying all of my hair cells are intact, in fact, I think that some may be dead, as I have two small dips in my pure tone hearing if I do a sweep.

So, to sum up: my audiogram is good, my otoacoustic emissions are good, showing that most of my hair cells are there. But I am experiencing distorted/hissing complex sounds indicating cochlear synaptopathy/neuropathy and maybe a few dead hair cells here and there.

I will update this thread once I get my treatment, but feel free to ask me anything, however, I am not an expert in this.

 

[tenforce]

@Tau, I'm experiencing exactly the same symptoms you explain, just without the tinnitus... I just hope to get it diagnosed properly, it doesn't seem so easy to find doctors who know the issue.

May I ask at at which dB-level you had your ABR that indicated synaptopathy?

 

[Tau]

@Tau, I'm experiencing exactly the same symptoms you explain, just without the tinnitus... I just hope to get it diagnosed properly, it doesn't seem so easy to find doctors who know the issue.

May I ask at at which dB-level you had your ABR that indicated synaptopathy?

It was 70 dB, 80 dB, 90 dB. The correct term here is auditory neuropathy, because you can't technically know where the signal is lost (be it the HC itself, or the synapse, or the nerve fibre), but the synapses are *usually* the first to go. That, coupled with a good audiogram and good otoacoustic emissions, points to nerve damage.

Low level synaptopathy may not show up on the ABR at all - for that you would need to have you own healthy control ABRs to compare wave I and wave V, if I understand this correctly.

I now think I may have a few focal lesions with missing HCs, too, as I have a few very narrow dips in my hearing when I do a very slow frequency sweep. They are about 30 Hz wide and dip by about 30 dB.

Hope this helps. I don't expect the secretome to heal HC damage in a significant way, but we will see.

 

[SmallRonnie]

@Tau, thanks for making this post first of all. I'm really liking the look of this procedure. It seems to be one of the safer types of stem cell treatment since it's your own cells and it's IV/intranasal. There is that study done on some children saying IV administration did lead to improvements in hearing so I would be hopeful for this treatment. Also since I'm in the EU it would suit me better than say going to Panama.

Will they be doing any LLLT after the treatment? Any drugs you take before or after treatment? Did they ask you for some medical records before they accepted you for treatment or do you need a referral from your ENT guy?

I only recently acquired tinnitus but I've had hyperacusis for about 4 years and while it has been slightly annoying (can't wear headphones without pain) I've dealt with it fine up until now. Since the tinnitus started 3 weeks ago it's been quite a nuisance and if there was a decent chance of making it even a little bit better I would definitely go for it.

Do you have any more info on all the extra doses of administration? How many and how far spread out they are? Money isn't an issue for me thankfully so I will get many extra doses or any extra treatment if it helps. I would also probably get some treatment for joint pain while I'm there but that's another story.

Can't wait to hear how your treatment goes!

 

[tenforce]

@Tau, tomorrow is your treatment, right? I wish you all the best! What is the current severity of your symptoms?

 

[Tau]

Will they be doing any LLLT after the treatment? Any drugs you take before or after treatment? Did they ask you for some medical records before they accepted you for treatment or do you need a referral from your ENT guy?

No drugs, no light therapy. They had to have my medical records as they carefully evaluate each case, especially the risk-to-benefit ratio. In my very first email communication with them they outright said they did not treat hearing disorders. My case is odd because I have good audiograms, however, my ABR tests show neuropathy.

Do you have any more info on all the extra doses of administration? How many and how far spread out they are?

The number of doses depends on how your cells grow and secrete the factors. Typically 10 doses are expected from one liposuction. The schedule depends on the severity of your case and your availability, so it's flexible to an extent. I think they have example timelines on their website.

@Tau, tomorrow is your treatment, right? I wish you all the best! What is the current severity of your symptoms?

Yep! My most annoying symptom is actually not tinnitus but hearing loss/distortions. Music sounding tinny and wrong, and beeps over sounds. Yeah, I do have 12+ tinnitus sounds, but they're low volume. There is one annoying 16-18 kHz sound that is almost unmaskable, but the others are okay. I also have hyperacusis, I get ear pressure and eventually pain from prolonged exposure to 75 dB+ noise. However, stuff like clanking plates is fine.

 

[SmallRonnie]

No drugs, no light therapy. They had to have my medical records as they carefully evaluate each case, especially the risk-to-benefit ratio. In my very first email communication with them they outright said they did not treat hearing disorders. My case is odd because I have good audiograms, however, my ABR tests show neuropathy.

The number of doses depends on how your cells grow and secrete the factors. Typically 10 doses are expected from one liposuction. The schedule depends on the severity of your case and your availability, so it's flexible to an extent. I think they have example timelines on their website.

Yep! My most annoying symptom is actually not tinnitus but hearing loss/distortions. Music sounding tinny and wrong, and beeps over sounds. Yeah, I do have 12+ tinnitus sounds, but they're low volume. There is one annoying 16-18 kHz sound that is almost unmaskable, but the others are okay. I also have hyperacusis, I get ear pressure and eventually pain from prolonged exposure to 75 dB+ noise. However, stuff like clanking plates is fine.

I really hope this treatment works out well for you man. I would have good faith that it will help at least somewhat. There's always Bangkok then too if you want to take on the extra risk. I haven't researched it a whole lot yet but from what I've seen so far it seems to be a relatively safe procedure that usually has great results. Seems that the cost turns off most people and maybe going to a foreign continent for medical treatment just sounds bad in people's heads.

 

[Tau]

I really hope this treatment works out well for you man. I would have good faith that it will help at least somewhat. There's always Bangkok then too if you want to take on the extra risk. I haven't researched it a whole lot yet but from what I've seen so far it seems to be a relatively safe procedure that usually has great results. Seems that the cost turns off most people and maybe going to a foreign continent for medical treatment just sounds bad in people's heads.

There are other, and, in my opinion, safer things to try before going there.

I have now had my first IV, two more to go. I don't expect any results sooner than a few weeks from now.

 

[SmallRonnie]

There are other, and, in my opinion, safer things to try before going there.

I have now had my first IV, two more to go. I don't expect any results sooner than a few weeks from now.

It can take several months to see results in some cases too, right?

What are the bigger risks involved with the StemCells21 treatment in your opinion? I'm just starting to research it myself, I see infections as one of the risks but it seems like a very low risk.

 

[AVIYT]

Liposuction done, it was 120 ml of fat, and they had to take it from the sides above my buttocks because I am skinny af.

I asked how they stimulate the cells - it's hypoxic conditions and some proprietary protocol.

I will come back in 4 weeks for the injections. Hoping it can help my visual snow, too, it's horrible at night.

If it does, and you report back any positive news (I REALLY HOPE SO), count me in. I want my visual snow helped and even a slight reduction in tinnitus and sensitivity and any one of my countless health problems being helped... I sure as hell will sign up.

 

[SmallRonnie]

If it does, and you report back any positive news (I REALLY HOPE SO), count me in. I want my visual snow helped and even a slight reduction in tinnitus and sensitivity and any one of my countless health problems being helped... I sure as hell will sign up.

There's a fair bit of research done on the benefits of stem cells for many issues. 4 people from Tinnitus Talk got treatment at StemCells21 and had improvements. I'm seriously considering the treatment myself. I've only had tinnitus now for 1 month but it's pretty persistent. Even a slight improvement would be amazing. I need to research more to see that the clinic is legit but it does seem to be. Only thing is it's very expensive but not an issue for myself thankfully so I'll most likely get that treatment if I don't see any improvement.

 

[Uklawyer]

Best of luck @Tau - we are rooting for you!!

 

[MindOverMatter]

@SmallRonnie, if you had tinnitus for 1 month only, why would you even consider thinking about this type of treatment now?

You are early in, and generally speaking there is usually a great change of your tinnitus to get better with time given your timeframe.

 

[Freerunner]

@Tau, how are you feeling buddy? When is the next IV going to take place?

 

[Tau]

@Tau, how are you feeling buddy? When is the next IV going to take place?

I feel fine, I've had 3 IVs, and I can schedule more, but I want to wait for results first.

I will give an update in a few weeks. Some positive things are happening, but nothing miraculous.

 

[vttbx]

Two separate injections from both blood and fat cells, lipo from my stomach and blood withdrawal from my arm. I have high frequency hearing loss (-50 dB @ 4000 Hz, -60 dB @ 4000 Hz, -55 dB @ 6000 Hz & -30 dB @ 8000 Hz.

I got a very loose eardrum from an ear surgery. I had the surgery on 7/2020 (which caused my hearing loss), before that I just had tinnitus in my right from being slapped in the ear. A Dr. at Mass eye & ear recommended middle ear exploration, it didn't work out. It screwed my life up very badly.

I think I have PET also. I'm hopefully seeing Dr. Poe soon for a consultation. Maybe he can help me but I suffer everyday. It's very weird, I can get my hearing back to almost normal by doing a Valsalva maneuver but only for maybe up to an hour, then it goes back to its stable bad state.

Did you ever go to see Dr. Poe for your PET?

 

[scotty03874]

Did you ever go to see Dr. Poe for your PET?

.
No. On January 26th to see him, but his right hand man Dr. Corrales is doing another surgery on me February 17th. He thinks it's ossicular discontinuity. I have 20 - 40 dB air bone gaps from 500 Hz to 4000 Hz. My life has been awful lately. Hour to hour I live struggling with my moderately severe hearing loss... I've had much better days before. Hopefully the TORP surgery he intends to do helps my hearing. The tinnitus hasn't been more of an issue lately, it's the huge loss of hearing... it's taken over my thought patterns.

 

[vttbx]

.
No. On January 26th to see him, but his right hand man Dr. Corrales is doing another surgery on me February 17th. He thinks it's ossicular discontinuity. I have 20 - 40 dB air bone gaps from 500 Hz to 4000 Hz. My life has been awful lately. Hour to hour I live struggling with my moderately severe hearing loss... I've had much better days before. Hopefully the TORP surgery he intends to do helps my hearing. The tinnitus hasn't been more of an issue lately, it's the huge loss of hearing... it's taken over my thought patterns.

I can relate. My hearing loss has cost me a 30-year career. I was at the top of my game. Now I'm starting over after losing my one skill. My life is divided into two parts: when I had my hearing and when I lost it. To make things worse, when I first knew of my hearing loss, I tried everything including HBOT. Just two sessions destroyed my eustachian tubes and gave me PET. So now it's tinnitus, hearing loss, and PET. I can't get to Boston to see Dr. Poe as I'm in CA.

Best of luck with the surgery!

 

[Freerunner]

@Tau, I hope you are doing good!

Since you are a scientist and you seem like a pretty knowledgeable guy - I have some questions if you do not mind.

Below is the treatment I have been offered from a Stem Cell clinic. The only thing I know is passage of stem cells would not be higher than 5. Could you please have a look and maybe give your overall thoughts. Is it good for €15,000 and do you think it might be beneficial?

Autologous stem cells will be 50 million
MSC - 100 million