The Big Confusion — The People Governing Tinnitus Research

[MountainCreek]

One gets tinnitus. May want to get rid of it. Eventually one may contact health care. But there what one learns it is completely harmless and nothing to bother about. If the message is not clear, one may be sent to psychiatrists explaining the same thing.

Here on Tinnitus Talk, people may think they contribute to tinnitus research in a positive way by giving them more money. Reality is that the people who govern tinnitus research spend that money on bullshit psychiatric research.

I listened to a broadcast of a prominent tinnitus researcher. When a guy on Tinnitus Talk asked him about a concrete practical down-to-earth cure of tinnitus based on the vagus nerve and whatever, this leading tinnitus professor had no idea what it was!

My message is that you should be very very careful with whom you are supporting here. Many many of these so called professors in tinnitus research may actually be working against you, by not wanting a cure at all of tinnitus. They think tinnitus is not a problem. What they think, is that it is your reaction to tinnitus that is THE problem. If we support these professors, we are gonna DELAY a real cure of tinnitus forever!

 

[Gman]

Well said.

Or maybe they should just use CBT for all medical issues. See how that goes.

 

[Bam]

They think tinnitus is not a problem. What they think, is that it is your reaction to tinnitus that is THE problem

The real problem is that there are people claiming to have tinnitus who also promote mindset as a perfectly adequate substitute for a cure. We see it on this forum all the bloody time.

How on earth are we going to see a cure if half the people supposedly suffering from the affliction we want to be rid of, go around spouting nonsense about mind over matter?

It's as if having constant screeching noise in your head is somehow an acceptable state and silence is overrated and unnecessary.

Unfortunately the coping industry have done a fine job of infiltrating places like this forum and the web. They then muddy the waters and create a swirl of confusion about this disease. So to the outside world and our families and friends we are just mentally weak and don't have the correct mindset to overcome it.

The honest to God truth of this nightmare is many of us are trapped in hell and will be for several years as we watch the world go on around us and pine for a life that has been lost to torturous noise.

 

[MountainCreek]

So to the outside world and our families and friends we are just mentally weak and don't have the correct mindset to overcome it.

This is exactly my point, and that is why these psychiatrists do so much harm when they spread their ideas all over the world, which makes any tinnitus sufferer look mentally weak to everyone.

 

[david c]

Here on Tinnitus Talk, people may think they contribute to tinnitus research in a positive way by giving them more money. Reality is that the people who govern tinnitus research spend that money on bullshit psychiatric research.

Completely agree with this - it is unfortunately very true in the UK. According to the BTA's own figures there have now been around 5000 studies on psychological "treatments" for tinnitus yet the BTA continues to insist on spending more money duplicating this research rather than on the biomedical research into tinnitus which we need.

 

[Contrast]

Are you familiar with Pawel Jastreboff?

 

[JohnAdams]

One gets tinnitus. May want to get rid of it. Eventually one may contact health care. But there what one learns it is completely harmless and nothing to bother about. If the message is not clear, one may be sent to psychiatrists explaining the same thing.

Here on Tinnitus Talk, people may think they contribute to tinnitus research in a positive way by giving them more money. Reality is that the people who govern tinnitus research spend that money on bullshit psychiatric research.

I listened to a broadcast of a prominent tinnitus researcher. When a guy on Tinnitus Talk asked him about a concrete practical down-to-earth cure of tinnitus based on the vagus nerve and whatever, this leading tinnitus professor had no idea what it was!

My message is that you should be very very careful with whom you are supporting here. Many many of these so called professors in tinnitus research may actually be working against you, by not wanting a cure at all of tinnitus. They think tinnitus is not a problem. What they think, is that it is your reaction to tinnitus that is THE problem. If we support these professors, we are gonna DELAY a real cure of tinnitus forever!

Or they just aren't inspired and they don't do research on their own. I've been very loud about my belief that there actually are viable treatments. I believe it even more now because I've actually had one.

 

[Dr. Ancill]

I agree that there is an industry out there that offers false treatments that usually you have to pay them for. Ironically, because we do not understand the pathology of tinnitus (and therefore cannot offer a cure), the only area that we can do something about is the patient's emotional reaction to tinnitus and it is clear that anxiety, depression and disturbed sleep all increase the perception of volume and intrusiveness.

With about 30% of adults reporting tinnitus, with and without hearing loss, the Pharmaceutical Industry would love to offer a treatment - it would be a bigger product than Viagra!! An actual working treatment would put all the rest out of business.

 

[MountainCreek]

I agree that there is an industry out there that offers false treatments that usually you have to pay them for. Ironically, because we do not understand the pathology of tinnitus (and therefore cannot offer a cure), the only area that we can do something about is the patient's emotional reaction to tinnitus and it is clear that anxiety, depression and disturbed sleep all increase the perception of volume and intrusiveness.

With about 30% of adults reporting tinnitus, with and without hearing loss, the Pharmaceutical Industry would love to offer a treatment - it would be a bigger product than Viagra!! An actual working treatment would put all the rest out of business.

I think a pill can cure tinnitus just as much as a pill can cure a broken leg. For the broken leg nobody objects to me when I say that it should be kept straight and not be exposed to any small twists or bending. For tinnitus NOBODY agrees with me when I say that this might be cured in exactly the same way, where the small twists and bends are now taken the place of sound waves. I have contacted tinnitus professors and suggested a very simple test to find out if this is true, but they are not interested. The test I suggest goes as follows. One induces tinnitus on a big group of mice. Then one places half of the mice in a sound isolated chamber for one month so they are never exposed to any sound wave exceeding 10 dB. For the other mice one places them in identical chambers, but in those chambers is played natural sounds at 40-50 dB nonstop (water flowing in a creek, wind sound, thunder storm, rain, etc). After 30 days, one compares the tinnitus levels of the two groups of mice which can be easily done by various tests, such as surprise tests that may detect tinnitus in the mice. This simple test has NEVER BEEN DONE! And given the prejudices that all professors in tinnitus research have against silence, it seems to me that it will also never be done.

One can not rule out any outcome of this experiment since nobody understands the mechanism of tinnitus. Hearing may not be restored. But tinnitus is not simply related to hearing. Tinnitus might be related to how fast hearing loss is induced. Hence it may not depend on the hearing itself, but on its time derivative! It may be a complicated functional dependence on the hearing. The outcome of this experiment can therefore not be predicted or guessed, until the damn experiment has actually been carried out! And how difficult would it be? I would think, one of the cheaper experiments. It seems to be all about prejudices that prevent researchers from carrying it out.

Not until this test has been carried out, can anyone say that moderate sounds do not affect tinnitus. The problem is that tinnitus is not seen as a disease. The problem is consistently attributed to our reaction to it and classified as a mental problem rather unrelated to tinnitus itself.

 

[OnceUponaTime]

@MountainCreek as in the water park?? (Action Park) Sorry, had to ask! Great place!

 

[Dr. Ancill]

How do you know when the mice have tinnitus?

 

[Jr_time]

So we have no cure any time soon??. I feel so lost right now. I feel like I'm going into a dark place where I don't want to go

 

[MountainCreek]

How do you know when the mice have tinnitus?

Expose the mice to white noise with a short gap of silence. Mice who startle when they hear the sudden gap of silence do not have tinnitus, while those who do not react to the gap of silence are assumed to have tinnitus.

See figure 1 in

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10162-011-0276-1

 

[MountainCreek]

Correction:

Expose the mice to a sound wave (pure tone) centered at a frequency f, with a short gap of silence. Mice who startle when they hear the sudden gap of silence do not have tinnitus at frequency f, while those who do not startle by the gap of silence are assumed to hear a tinnitus tone at frequency f since they don't startle when the external tone has a short gap of silence.

See figure 1 in

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10162-011-0276-1

 

[threefirefour]

One gets tinnitus. May want to get rid of it. Eventually one may contact health care. But there what one learns it is completely harmless and nothing to bother about. If the message is not clear, one may be sent to psychiatrists explaining the same thing.

Here on Tinnitus Talk, people may think they contribute to tinnitus research in a positive way by giving them more money. Reality is that the people who govern tinnitus research spend that money on bullshit psychiatric research.

I listened to a broadcast of a prominent tinnitus researcher. When a guy on Tinnitus Talk asked him about a concrete practical down-to-earth cure of tinnitus based on the vagus nerve and whatever, this leading tinnitus professor had no idea what it was!

My message is that you should be very very careful with whom you are supporting here. Many many of these so called professors in tinnitus research may actually be working against you, by not wanting a cure at all of tinnitus. They think tinnitus is not a problem. What they think, is that it is your reaction to tinnitus that is THE problem. If we support these professors, we are gonna DELAY a real cure of tinnitus forever!

Absolutely 100% nailed it. I couldn't have said it better

 

[Allan1967]

One gets tinnitus. May want to get rid of it. Eventually one may contact health care. But there what one learns it is completely harmless and nothing to bother about. If the message is not clear, one may be sent to psychiatrists explaining the same thing.

Here on Tinnitus Talk, people may think they contribute to tinnitus research in a positive way by giving them more money. Reality is that the people who govern tinnitus research spend that money on bullshit psychiatric research.

I listened to a broadcast of a prominent tinnitus researcher. When a guy on Tinnitus Talk asked him about a concrete practical down-to-earth cure of tinnitus based on the vagus nerve and whatever, this leading tinnitus professor had no idea what it was!

My message is that you should be very very careful with whom you are supporting here. Many many of these so called professors in tinnitus research may actually be working against you, by not wanting a cure at all of tinnitus. They think tinnitus is not a problem. What they think, is that it is your reaction to tinnitus that is THE problem. If we support these professors, we are gonna DELAY a real cure of tinnitus forever!

Rubbish.

Where is your evidence of all this? Are you basing this on because ONE 'leading tinnitus Professor' didn't know about the 'vagus nerve or whatever'. What's his name?

Seen as you have the answers - which is not supporting researchers - because you say supporting them delays it - how will the real cure happen then?

And FYI - the tinnitus community generally speaking doesn't want to help itself anyway, most would rather sit around 'hoping' as opposed to 'doing', so you have nothing to worry about. You can continue to suffer in glorious peace.

 

[Allan1967]

Completely agree with this - it is unfortunately very true in the UK. According to the BTA's own figures there have now been around 5000 studies on psychological "treatments" for tinnitus yet the BTA continues to insist on spending more money duplicating this research rather than on the biomedical research into tinnitus which we need.

BTA needs a kick up the arse but I think they are starting to change their tune.

 

[Daniel Lion]

How do you know when the mice have tinnitus?

Speechless, thanks doc...

 

[Bam]

With about 30% of adults reporting tinnitus, with and without hearing loss, the Pharmaceutical Industry would love to offer a treatment - it would be a bigger product than Viagra!!

That cannot be true. The statistics are hyper inflated by 'disco tinnitus' that lasts a few days. If the 30% was a true stat for chronic tinnitus that doesn't go away ever, the whole working world come to a grinding halt as people struggled to sleep and function.

Big pharma realise that the statistics for long term sufferers are pretty low and they already have the market covered by offering us AD's, benzodiazepines and sleeping pills. Why give us a cure when we are lining their pockets on multiple fronts already?

 

[david c]

BTA needs a kick up the arse but I think they are starting to change their tune.

We live in hope @Allan1967. What's not in doubt is that since I started my thread about the BTA on the Awareness section of Tinnitus Talk the climate has changed - people are much keener to scrutinise and challenge the BTA's record on research. I am personally very pleased about the change that thread has brought about. However, ultimately we need to judge on the BTA's actions and in particular what they announce as their next research project. More duplication of Mindfulness and CBT studies will not be welcomed.

 

[GregCA]

How do you know when the mice have tinnitus?

Dear Dr Ancill,

I hope you are sarcastic with your comment.

The methods to induce and detect Tinnitus in mice are described in many scientific studies. Do you really not know how we perform Tinnitus related studies on rodents?

If you really don't know, why not look it up online? I mean that if you just google "how to test tinnitus on rats" you end up with quite a few relevant hits describing methods, their shortcomings, strengths, etc...

 

[Dr. Ancill]

I am aware of the research and the behavioral tool used - licking suppression. However, many (including me) are not persuaded that this relates directly to tinnitus.

 

[MountainCreek]

I am aware of the research and the behavioral tool used - licking suppression. However, many (including me) are not persuaded that this relates directly to tinnitus.

That's a good attitude. Science can develop only when people remain critical. The only thing that is certain is that nothing is certain.

 

[GregCA]

I am aware of the research and the behavioral tool used - licking suppression. However, many (including me) are not persuaded that this relates directly to tinnitus.

Can you please elaborate?

 

[Aaron123]

The methods to induce and detect Tinnitus in mice are described in many scientific studies. Do you really not know how we perform Tinnitus related studies on rodents?

I would change "detect" to "infer". There is a fairly standard approach used to attempt to infer tinnitus, but what isn't clear how good that approach is. Here's a paper describing some issues: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3505812/ Here's a paper that suggests the paradigm may not work as well with mice as other rodents: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202882 Haven't read the paper, but this just came out: https://pubs.asha.org/doi/10.1044/2018_AJA-18-0074 I believe there are more papers on this, but I don't have them at hand easily. Another area where we are flying at least somewhat blind.

 

[Gman]

Dear Dr Ancill,

I hope you are sarcastic with your comment.

The methods to induce and detect Tinnitus in mice are described in many scientific studies. Do you really not know how we perform Tinnitus related studies on rodents?

If you really don't know, why not look it up online? I mean that if you just google "how to test tinnitus on rats" you end up with quite a few relevant hits describing methods, their shortcomings, strengths, etc...

Many clinicians don't keep up-to-date on current research. They often only keep up-to-date on available treatments, because they're given free lunches to eat while hearing about them from the drug/device companies that sell them.

Most aren't even aware of impeding treatments such as bi modal neuromodulation.